9 ms·

I am of the opinion that you should not mess with my scrollbars. I like them to be visible and wide, because (a) I like to know a page's length and my current p

by jvzr 7y ago

I am of the opinion that you should not mess with my scrollbars. I like them to be visible and wide, because (a) I like to know a page's length and my current progress, and (b) I'm a bit blind and I don't want to hunt for an 'unobtrusive' scrollbar. There are options at the system level, I find it great that most browsers follow them and sites cannot willy-nilly change them without my consent.

zamadatix 7y ago
The article covers these points in great detail and spends significant time avoiding exactly what you describe with it's final workaround.
- jvzr 7y ago
  I know, I read it. But it doesn't work like it says it does. I have Firefox with Windows 10, and the final result ('only styles obtrusive scrollbars') is way too unobtrusive for my tastes. It sorts of look like the Windows 10 scrollbars, but is 1/5th or one quarter the size of a regular scrollbar, and is hidden among the background of the page. Not what I prefer, and what I set up in my OS settings.
- lhorie 7y ago
  The core problem, as I see it, is of someone else deciding that "unobtrusive" scrollbars are better. On a mac, to actually grab the scroller for scrubbing, you need to scroll a bit to make it visible and then manage to bring your cursor into a tiny area using the trackpad within a few seconds before the scroller disappears. If you miss, clicking activates window resizing. UIs need to be functional first. Being pretty should never trump being functional.
  - IggleSniggle 7y ago
    On a Mac, this is configurable. The article talks about this, and about respecting user configuration when possible.
    - lhorie 7y ago
      > configurable I mean, if I write an app and hide a "dysfunctional prettiness [Y/n]" configuration somewhere in settings, is that a good thing? I'd argue there are at least two better options that are trivial to implement, and surely more if one cares to do UX due diligence when trying some novel design.
      - mikestew 7y ago
        I'd argue there are at least two better options... Wasn't your original complaint that someone decided what was "better"? Or are you complaining that they didn't take your choice? Point being that someone that decided otherwise thought they had a good reason for their decision, too. In this case, it could be argued that trackpads reduce the need for the scrollbars. (I have no idea what the real argument for such UI behavior is.)
        lhorie 7y ago
        I'm talking in generalities. The status quo used to be "scrollbars are visible things". If you're going to change the status quo, it behooves avoiding a dark pattern (like e.g. privacy settings turned off by default). The two better options for UX changes (generally) are to leave it alone, or to create a configuration that defaults to the old way of doing things. You probably heard again and again of some random company doing some major redesign with good intentions and ending up pissing off users. In my experience, the backdrop in many of those cases is that UX changes get rolled out because people need to justify their jobs or they think X is prettier/popular. You don't hear nearly as much about people doing UX research as you do of people cranking out React things, and it would be extremely benevolent to assume developers do in fact do expensive, time consuming UX sessions w/ users. If we talk specifically about scrollbars, maybe a good litmus test is this: - if the default was no scrollbar whatsoever, would that be a problem for you? - if the default was a read-only scrollbar (e.g. it merely reports whereabouts in the page you are, but does not respond to mouse events), would that be a problem for you? If the answer to either of those is "no", you probably aren't actually using it. They could conceivably be configurations too, but why? Consider this hypothetical parallel: why not hide the "Help" menu item in apps? Personally, I don't use it and it would clean up the UI, so it must be fine, right? Well, not necessarily. Because if you bother to do UX sessions w/ users, you may find that people looking to use that specific feature will have expectations about where it should be.
  - ebg13 7y ago
    > On a mac, to actually grab the scroller for scrubbing, you need to scroll a bit to make it visible and then manage to bring your cursor into a tiny area using the trackpad This complaint looks disingenuous to me. If you're using a trackpad, you already have scrolling built in and the scrollbar is there primarily for visual feedback. The reason that scrollbars can now be invisible by default is exactly _because_ of the ubiquity of touchpads and mice with built-in scrolling.
    - tempguy9999 7y ago
      You're (IMO) missing the point. I decide because it my machine. It is not your machine; respect that and everyone will be happy.
      - berdon 7y ago
        The opposite is true as well - it's the web developers website. If you don't like how they style the scrollbars...don't use it.
        tempguy9999 7y ago
        Interesting point (upvoted too). Are you a web dev?
        berdon 7y ago
        No, and I generally agree with the sentiment that poor UX is bad for the user. I just disagree with users pushing their palate onto others. That's not how it should work.
        tempguy9999 7y ago
        Ooh, that's a bit much. The website dev is pushing their side. No user of the site is forcing anything onto any other user of the site. Perhaps we can have an HTTP header or something that says to the site, please don't mess with browser behaviour. Omit that and the site has got implicit permission.
  - nine_k 7y ago
    Being pretty helps the first impression in an Apple store, and for first few days. When a user realizes that a scrollbar may be a useful feature, but it's somehow hard to obtain, it's too late to complain, and the Stockholm syndrome kicks in.
Cyberdog 7y ago
I like macOS/iOS's hidden scrollbars personally, but I agree with you about not wanting pages to be able to override scrollbar behavior in any manner. The way my scrollbars work is perfectly fine and, more importantly, predictable, and I don't need web pages changing that on their creators' masturbatory whims. Too bad Google once again leads the way of being a prominent example of a bad idea with its custom scroll bars on many of its properties.
- munchbunny 7y ago
  I agree with this, so based on the article I think that browsers should respect the Windows setting since it's an expression of the user's preferences. Other than that, I have a strong preference that webpages don't try to style the scrollbar (with exceptions when it really makes sense).
  - nordsieck 7y ago
    > I have a strong preference that webpages don't try to style the scrollbar (with exceptions when it really makes sense). That's the crux of the problem: the only time a website makes changes to the scrollbar is when the author thinks it makes sense. I just disagree all of the time.
    - Springtime 7y ago
      One site I've thought it made sense was in Discord, which acts as a properly themed web app and where the clash of certain native scrollbars would be jarring (eg: bright scrollbars on a dark theme). That said the scroll bar it uses for the user list is microscopic compared to the one used for the message log, which is a baffling decision. For every other regular site, and even most web apps, I always prefer native, for Windows.
  - marcosdumay 7y ago
    Well, no problem in making all those styling rules opt-in. When it really makes sense, you can choose to use the author's UI. Apply that for colors too. Applications should respect the DE settings for UI. Browsers are the main culprits here, but only because CAD software isn't widely used. Oh, and there's MS Office, that will respect absolutely nothing. All of those are in the wrong. But everywhere the DE is powerless to enforce its style onto applications, so this is a much harder problem to fix;
LaGrange 7y ago
Yeah, the unobtrusive scrollbars make sense only if you're using a multitouch touchpad or Apple's mouse — as soon as I have to use e.g. some office's basic mouse, chasing those unobtrusive becomes a major pain, to the point I wish Macs would switch to traditional scrollbars if I connect a "plain" mouse. Not that it matters: modern websites tend to completely break scrollbars.
soulofmischief 7y ago
But what about an SPA with potentially multiple scrollable areas? Sometimes a simple, sleek visual indicator makes for more readable UI.
- discreditable 7y ago
  Multiple scrollable areas in a window is pretty annoying in my experience. Depending on what you last clicked on and where your cursor is can result in different areas being scrolled.
  - soulofmischief 7y ago
    That just depends on the implementation. I can think of plenty use cases for online applications which need multiple scrollbars. Sometimes you can't fit every element in one view.
    - pfranz 7y ago
      I don't see how that kind of SPA is any different than a heavy pro app. Those apps often come up with their own UI scheme that people either love or hate (and usually completely ignores system preferences). A few common examples (I specifically chose Apple to illustrate) are Aperture, Logic Pro, Final Cut Pro. You're already buying into the whole app and there's good reason to not like the design decisions they made. I also think many companies overvalue the need for it.
      - soulofmischief 7y ago
        That's completely irrelevant. I can't imagine how ugly Blender or Photoshop's UI would become if they used my stock system scrollbars. What you're arguing over is merely a matter of preference. Some people can do it right, and pointing at the wrong examples is pointless.
        pfranz 7y ago
        But that's my point. It has a place in a very, very narrow number of applications. For those it's an all-in decision where the UI significantly changes and it's ignoring your operating system. Photoshop for most of its history used the OS' UI paradigms. Only in the past decade or so has it adopted its own. I'm pretty sure it used the OS' scroll bars at least until CS5 around 2010.
NullPrefix 7y ago
>I like to know a page's length This is not your concern, you should spend more time looking at the ads. /s
pfranz 7y ago
I completely agree. I'm questioning whether I'm curmudgeon for feeling this way, but the only time I notice scrolling customizations is when they mess up scrolling--which is surprisingly often and also seems intentional most of the time. I understand the motivation for controlling the experience, but I really think designers are undervaluing consistency. It feels like the car I drive every day acts different on one road. Sure, there's a very tiny chance it's an improvement if a lot of time and thought has been invested, but in all likelihood it's just very jarring.
johnisgood 7y ago
Most of the time the scrollbar is so damn narrow that sometimes I am having troubles positioning my cursor on it, seriously! It is hidden by default, AND narrow. I have difficulties making it appear and use it for scrolling. I move my cursor by one pixel, and it disappears again, sometimes I have to fsck around with it for way too long. Yeah, stop messing with my scrollbar.
hinkley 7y ago
I have some dev tools that do infinite scrolling and I wish I had the authors here to tell them how fucking stupid I think they are. If the page is long enough for infinite scrolling, I'm probably going to have a slightly error-prone recollection of the exact string of text I'm looking for. Taking search away from me makes this worse. There's a bit of psychology that says when someone is experiencing a strong emotion, good or bad, they will associate it with a person nearby, whether they deserve it or not. This has applications from espionage to team building to crisis management. One of the wrinkles of this is that if someone is already or almost experiencing a strong emotion and you add to it in any way, you've made yourself a target. One of the things I tell mentees about code and test quality (especially the latter) is that in the grand scheme of things, nobody (read: a tiny fraction) is going to look at your code for fun. They're going to look at it because something bad happened, near it or in it. Assume the person reading your code is already having a bad day. Don't make it worse. Especially if it ends up having nothing to do with you. The infinite scroll bozos, at least in the scope of productivity tools, are making my not-great day worse. The ones that 'fix' this by hijacking CTRL-F and do their own half-assed implementation of search are just doubling down. If you're going to listen on CTRL-F, maybe force-update the entire list instead?
- SenHeng 7y ago
  Please name these tools, thank you.
  - hinkley 7y ago
    Atlassian for one. Their old code viewer was a disaster but that might have been Bitbucket’s fault. The repository list lazy loads, and if you’re at a big enough company the repositories get into multiple projects and it’s always disorganized. Which project is this repo in again? Time to hunt around and oh yeah CTRL-F doesn’t work unless you remember to scroll to the bottom repeatedly.

by jvzr 7y ago

zamadatix 7y ago

The article covers these points in great detail and spends significant time avoiding exactly what you describe with it's final workaround.

jvzr 7y ago
I know, I read it. But it doesn't work like it says it does. I have Firefox with Windows 10, and the final result ('only styles obtrusive scrollbars') is way too unobtrusive for my tastes. It sorts of look like the Windows 10 scrollbars, but is 1/5th or one quarter the size of a regular scrollbar, and is hidden among the background of the page. Not what I prefer, and what I set up in my OS settings.
lhorie 7y ago
The core problem, as I see it, is of someone else deciding that "unobtrusive" scrollbars are better. On a mac, to actually grab the scroller for scrubbing, you need to scroll a bit to make it visible and then manage to bring your cursor into a tiny area using the trackpad within a few seconds before the scroller disappears. If you miss, clicking activates window resizing. UIs need to be functional first. Being pretty should never trump being functional.
- IggleSniggle 7y ago
  On a Mac, this is configurable. The article talks about this, and about respecting user configuration when possible.
  - lhorie 7y ago
    > configurable I mean, if I write an app and hide a "dysfunctional prettiness [Y/n]" configuration somewhere in settings, is that a good thing? I'd argue there are at least two better options that are trivial to implement, and surely more if one cares to do UX due diligence when trying some novel design.
    - mikestew 7y ago
      I'd argue there are at least two better options... Wasn't your original complaint that someone decided what was "better"? Or are you complaining that they didn't take your choice? Point being that someone that decided otherwise thought they had a good reason for their decision, too. In this case, it could be argued that trackpads reduce the need for the scrollbars. (I have no idea what the real argument for such UI behavior is.)
      - lhorie 7y ago
        I'm talking in generalities. The status quo used to be "scrollbars are visible things". If you're going to change the status quo, it behooves avoiding a dark pattern (like e.g. privacy settings turned off by default). The two better options for UX changes (generally) are to leave it alone, or to create a configuration that defaults to the old way of doing things. You probably heard again and again of some random company doing some major redesign with good intentions and ending up pissing off users. In my experience, the backdrop in many of those cases is that UX changes get rolled out because people need to justify their jobs or they think X is prettier/popular. You don't hear nearly as much about people doing UX research as you do of people cranking out React things, and it would be extremely benevolent to assume developers do in fact do expensive, time consuming UX sessions w/ users. If we talk specifically about scrollbars, maybe a good litmus test is this: - if the default was no scrollbar whatsoever, would that be a problem for you? - if the default was a read-only scrollbar (e.g. it merely reports whereabouts in the page you are, but does not respond to mouse events), would that be a problem for you? If the answer to either of those is "no", you probably aren't actually using it. They could conceivably be configurations too, but why? Consider this hypothetical parallel: why not hide the "Help" menu item in apps? Personally, I don't use it and it would clean up the UI, so it must be fine, right? Well, not necessarily. Because if you bother to do UX sessions w/ users, you may find that people looking to use that specific feature will have expectations about where it should be.
- ebg13 7y ago
  > On a mac, to actually grab the scroller for scrubbing, you need to scroll a bit to make it visible and then manage to bring your cursor into a tiny area using the trackpad This complaint looks disingenuous to me. If you're using a trackpad, you already have scrolling built in and the scrollbar is there primarily for visual feedback. The reason that scrollbars can now be invisible by default is exactly _because_ of the ubiquity of touchpads and mice with built-in scrolling.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    You're (IMO) missing the point. I decide because it my machine. It is not your machine; respect that and everyone will be happy.
    - berdon 7y ago
      The opposite is true as well - it's the web developers website. If you don't like how they style the scrollbars...don't use it.
      - tempguy9999 7y ago
        Interesting point (upvoted too). Are you a web dev?
        berdon 7y ago
        No, and I generally agree with the sentiment that poor UX is bad for the user. I just disagree with users pushing their palate onto others. That's not how it should work.
        tempguy9999 7y ago
        Ooh, that's a bit much. The website dev is pushing their side. No user of the site is forcing anything onto any other user of the site. Perhaps we can have an HTTP header or something that says to the site, please don't mess with browser behaviour. Omit that and the site has got implicit permission.
- nine_k 7y ago
  Being pretty helps the first impression in an Apple store, and for first few days. When a user realizes that a scrollbar may be a useful feature, but it's somehow hard to obtain, it's too late to complain, and the Stockholm syndrome kicks in.

Cyberdog 7y ago

I like macOS/iOS's hidden scrollbars personally, but I agree with you about not wanting pages to be able to override scrollbar behavior in any manner. The way my scrollbars work is perfectly fine and, more importantly, predictable, and I don't need web pages changing that on their creators' masturbatory whims. Too bad Google once again leads the way of being a prominent example of a bad idea with its custom scroll bars on many of its properties.

munchbunny 7y ago
I agree with this, so based on the article I think that browsers should respect the Windows setting since it's an expression of the user's preferences. Other than that, I have a strong preference that webpages don't try to style the scrollbar (with exceptions when it really makes sense).
- nordsieck 7y ago
  > I have a strong preference that webpages don't try to style the scrollbar (with exceptions when it really makes sense). That's the crux of the problem: the only time a website makes changes to the scrollbar is when the author thinks it makes sense. I just disagree all of the time.
  - Springtime 7y ago
    One site I've thought it made sense was in Discord, which acts as a properly themed web app and where the clash of certain native scrollbars would be jarring (eg: bright scrollbars on a dark theme). That said the scroll bar it uses for the user list is microscopic compared to the one used for the message log, which is a baffling decision. For every other regular site, and even most web apps, I always prefer native, for Windows.
- marcosdumay 7y ago
  Well, no problem in making all those styling rules opt-in. When it really makes sense, you can choose to use the author's UI. Apply that for colors too. Applications should respect the DE settings for UI. Browsers are the main culprits here, but only because CAD software isn't widely used. Oh, and there's MS Office, that will respect absolutely nothing. All of those are in the wrong. But everywhere the DE is powerless to enforce its style onto applications, so this is a much harder problem to fix;

LaGrange 7y ago

Yeah, the unobtrusive scrollbars make sense only if you're using a multitouch touchpad or Apple's mouse — as soon as I have to use e.g. some office's basic mouse, chasing those unobtrusive becomes a major pain, to the point I wish Macs would switch to traditional scrollbars if I connect a "plain" mouse. Not that it matters: modern websites tend to completely break scrollbars.

soulofmischief 7y ago

But what about an SPA with potentially multiple scrollable areas? Sometimes a simple, sleek visual indicator makes for more readable UI.

discreditable 7y ago
Multiple scrollable areas in a window is pretty annoying in my experience. Depending on what you last clicked on and where your cursor is can result in different areas being scrolled.
- soulofmischief 7y ago
  That just depends on the implementation. I can think of plenty use cases for online applications which need multiple scrollbars. Sometimes you can't fit every element in one view.
  - pfranz 7y ago
    I don't see how that kind of SPA is any different than a heavy pro app. Those apps often come up with their own UI scheme that people either love or hate (and usually completely ignores system preferences). A few common examples (I specifically chose Apple to illustrate) are Aperture, Logic Pro, Final Cut Pro. You're already buying into the whole app and there's good reason to not like the design decisions they made. I also think many companies overvalue the need for it.
    - soulofmischief 7y ago
      That's completely irrelevant. I can't imagine how ugly Blender or Photoshop's UI would become if they used my stock system scrollbars. What you're arguing over is merely a matter of preference. Some people can do it right, and pointing at the wrong examples is pointless.
      - pfranz 7y ago
        But that's my point. It has a place in a very, very narrow number of applications. For those it's an all-in decision where the UI significantly changes and it's ignoring your operating system. Photoshop for most of its history used the OS' UI paradigms. Only in the past decade or so has it adopted its own. I'm pretty sure it used the OS' scroll bars at least until CS5 around 2010.

NullPrefix 7y ago

>I like to know a page's length This is not your concern, you should spend more time looking at the ads. /s

pfranz 7y ago

I completely agree. I'm questioning whether I'm curmudgeon for feeling this way, but the only time I notice scrolling customizations is when they mess up scrolling--which is surprisingly often and also seems intentional most of the time. I understand the motivation for controlling the experience, but I really think designers are undervaluing consistency. It feels like the car I drive every day acts different on one road. Sure, there's a very tiny chance it's an improvement if a lot of time and thought has been invested, but in all likelihood it's just very jarring.

johnisgood 7y ago

Most of the time the scrollbar is so damn narrow that sometimes I am having troubles positioning my cursor on it, seriously! It is hidden by default, AND narrow. I have difficulties making it appear and use it for scrolling. I move my cursor by one pixel, and it disappears again, sometimes I have to fsck around with it for way too long. Yeah, stop messing with my scrollbar.

hinkley 7y ago

I have some dev tools that do infinite scrolling and I wish I had the authors here to tell them how fucking stupid I think they are. If the page is long enough for infinite scrolling, I'm probably going to have a slightly error-prone recollection of the exact string of text I'm looking for. Taking search away from me makes this worse. There's a bit of psychology that says when someone is experiencing a strong emotion, good or bad, they will associate it with a person nearby, whether they deserve it or not. This has applications from espionage to team building to crisis management. One of the wrinkles of this is that if someone is already or almost experiencing a strong emotion and you add to it in any way, you've made yourself a target. One of the things I tell mentees about code and test quality (especially the latter) is that in the grand scheme of things, nobody (read: a tiny fraction) is going to look at your code for fun. They're going to look at it because something bad happened, near it or in it. Assume the person reading your code is already having a bad day. Don't make it worse. Especially if it ends up having nothing to do with you. The infinite scroll bozos, at least in the scope of productivity tools, are making my not-great day worse. The ones that 'fix' this by hijacking CTRL-F and do their own half-assed implementation of search are just doubling down. If you're going to listen on CTRL-F, maybe force-update the entire list instead?

SenHeng 7y ago
Please name these tools, thank you.
- hinkley 7y ago
  Atlassian for one. Their old code viewer was a disaster but that might have been Bitbucket’s fault. The repository list lazy loads, and if you’re at a big enough company the repositories get into multiple projects and it’s always disorganized. Which project is this repo in again? Time to hunt around and oh yeah CTRL-F doesn’t work unless you remember to scroll to the bottom repeatedly.