7 ms·

Welcome to the world of, by some measures, "too many" people having too much disposable wealth. There are obviously worse problems to have. But overtourism is a

• skohan 7y ago
  > this need people have to jam in with 100,000 other people just to see some famous building. Maybe that's just me. I was fortunate enough to spend a gap year traveling around the world, and one of the lessons I learned quickly was that I have little interest in "iconic" destinations. I can distinctly remember when I made this realization: I was in Oia Santorini at sunset, which I had decided to go to because I had seen amazing photos of this secluded town on a cliffside overlooking the sun go down over the Aegean. But while the view was beautiful, the reality of that moment was a thousand other tourists elbowing their way to a good vantage point to take the same picture which had been taken a million times before. There was even a newly married couple who was standing there dejected: they had apparently gone to that point to take wedding photos, but discovered it would obviously be impossible. I still like to travel, but please keep me miles away from anything famous.
  • dorian-graph 7y ago
    When I was at Oia, for sunset as well, there was someone who almost fell off one of the main spots people go as he was taking a selfie with a selfie stick, a girl who peed off the edge (with her friends laughing her on), etc. Even on Santorini, which is tiny, I was able to find nice places that weren't completely crowded.
  • xiphias2 7y ago
    In what part of the year did you go? I went in late October when weather in other parts of Europe was bad anyways, and there were many tourists, but still an OK amount, not what you’re describing. It was amazing so actually I want to go back some time to show it to my parents.
    • skohan 7y ago
      This was early June
• PeterStuer 7y ago
  "Welcome to the world of, by some measures, "too many" people having too much disposable wealth." Or as in this case, a cabal of people for the travel industry managing to capture public funds to direct massive subsidies towards their goals, either directly or indirectly though avoid pricing in massive externalities and even get massive tax benefits.
• magashna 7y ago
  I much perfer to see the oddities a place has to offer, it would be a shame to not be able to visit because others need to stand in a crowd looking at the Mona Lisa.
• notafrog 7y ago
  I was in Rome with my wife for less than two days for other reasons, and we decided we'd pass by Trevi Fountain. Let me tell you, that place was packed. Maybe 400-500 people packed just to say they were there, or maybe wait in hopes of getting a clear shot. All of this just to brag in social media. I think the problem would be better if people didn't brag on social media about every single place they go to.
  • vkou 7y ago
    So, the problem would be better if our monkey brains were not wired to pursue, and to envy social monkey-status-seeking? The USSR tried to build the New Soviet Man for only what, 70 years...
  • PhilWright 7y ago
    And you were one of the 400-500 packing the place. All the others were thinking you are part of the problem and they are the legitimate visitor.
    • notafrog 7y ago
      If only you'd put as much effort into reading as you put into your condescending tone, then, just maybe, you'd notice the part where I mentioned we wanted to "pass by", and not "sit for hours just to take a picture". Those 400-500 people were just staying there, with many blocking the street – you know, the thing people walk on?
• auiya 7y ago
  All three of those methods are used by the Augusta National golf course to control visitor crowds during the Master's golf tournament each year. It seems to work reasonably well in creating a predictable number of guests at any given point during the tournament. But they also are able to control their borders effectively. I don't know how you'd scale this approach up to country-size levels.
• hinkley 7y ago
  It the Everest case the lottery could be used to pay for all of the externalities. Everyone who wants to climb Everest pays in 100 bucks to register. Winner has to pony up another 900 for the permit, and fines for leaving material on the mountain. Spend the net profit on cleaning up after the people who already left shit on the mountain. But here's another alternative that also fixes it: To get a permit to climb Everest, you have to have spent some hundreds of hours volunteering for the crew doing cleanup. You'd see the lower 70% of the route multiple times before it was ever your turn. You'll get a hint of how you respond to altitude + cold. You'll understand what a flying pain in the ass it is to clean up after asshole climbers. You will also go farther up Everest than most people ever will, and you'll be reducing the human footprint in the process.
  • claytoneast 7y ago
    Everest permits already cost USD $11,000. The problem is the government doesn't necessarily use that money to clean up the site. The government also doesn't cap the number of climbers, as far as I know. Hence the chaos up there. http://www.alanarnette.com/blog/2018/12/17/how-much-does-it-cost-to-climb-mount-everest-2019-edition/ http://www.alanarnette.com/blog/2018/12/17/how-much-does-it-...
    • skohan 7y ago
      This year was especially bad because the weather window was especially short, meaning that all the people who might have had a month or more to spread themselves out over were condensed into a week or two.
    • hinkley 7y ago
      The friction of requiring volunteer hours would probably buy them another ten years of runway to solve that problem. https://www.seattle.gov/neighborhoods/programs-and-services/p-patch-community-gardening https://www.seattle.gov/neighborhoods/programs-and-services/... has a required number of hours per year to get - and retain - an allotment. It's meant to reduce entropy and keep the waiting list a bit shorter. A couple of things on this list https://www.seattle.gov/neighborhoods/programs-and-services/p-patch-community-gardening/toolkit-for-gardeners/other-opportunities-to-garden https://www.seattle.gov/neighborhoods/programs-and-services/... can get you your hours in faster, which bumps you up a little bit in the queue. I'd like to see that ramp more aggressively but that would discriminate against blue collar workers. Everest doesn't have that problem, though. Climbing it is, in many ways, a statement of privilege already. If you issued permits to the 100 people with the most volunteer hours in that year, you'd solve a whole host of problems.
• e12e 7y ago
  Indeed. People go to the edge of the world and wear it down. All the while transport to the edge of the world is a real problem in terms of emissions - both for flight and by boat.
• scarejunba 7y ago
  Why not just auction? That way you don’t have the misallocation of quotas without auctions, the uncertainty of lotteries, or the deadweight loss of incorrect price choosing. Pick a number the trail can handle, auction tickets.
  • m4rtink 7y ago
    Sure - if you don't mind cutting off all less wealthy travelers, then go ahead.
    • Nasrudith 7y ago
      I thought that was the point given their goals. I guess it makes their inner ugliness too blatant though.
    • yuft 7y ago
      Vickrey auction?
    • yazaddaruvala 7y ago
      How is this different than what for profit airlines, hotels already do within the tourism industry? Less wealthy travelers go at odd times, they live in hostels and have "worse" experiences. The only difference in this case is that the country is also directly profiting from this demand.
    • scarejunba 7y ago
      Well, there are options here. You could assume that the time value for the wealthy travelers is high and the time value for the poor travelers is low. Your objective is to maximize the (revenue - cost_to_maintain) while retaining some max_visitors. You could then offer the Faroe Islands option: you get to trade off some degree of your time and some degree of your wealth to visit. So you could either pay $1000 to go to Preikestolen or you could help maintain the trail for some x days etc. Ultimately, let's be honest: we want the most number of people to be able to experience these things (I fortunately went to most of these places before the recent boom and I think they're wonderful) while ensuring that the cost to the environment isn't catastrophic. That means some people can't go. We can pick some mechanism but it will necessarily exclude some people. The money is the best selection mechanism because we can use it at pretty high granularity on preserving the thing that is bearing the cost, but any substitute that serves the purpose does just as well. The key magic is that with money we can undo some damage. That's what makes it a useful thing to auction on.
• legulere 7y ago
  There is also some effect of social media. For my next holiday I was checking out where to go and found articles with titles like "The most instagramable locations in *". Banning photos might be an unconventional but effective way to have people actually experience more of the place they visit and for places to be less overrun.
• munificent 7y ago
  > "too many" people having too much disposable wealth. I don't think this is the problem at all. The world is huge. There are millions of tourist destinations and plenty of room for people in all of them. The problem is with distribution. Social media creates power law distributions of attention. There are a few pieces of writing I wish every human on Earth had read and this is one of them: http://shirky.com/writings/powerlaw_weblog.html http://shirky.com/writings/powerlaw_weblog.html Instagram has caused these power law distributions to escape media onto the real world. While there are millions of delightful vacation destinations, most people never hear about most of them. Instead, a tiny minority of the most photogenic one (like Trolltunga, mentioned in the article), consume almost all of the attention and then net a huge, unmanageable number of visitors. For every Everest, there are a hundred mountains that are 90% as beautiful but only get 10% of the visitors. I believe this is one of the fundamental, structural problems of the modern age. Most of the information we consume — literally the knowledge we base our worldview on — is now brought to our attention based on social media sharing and aggregation. The nature of those systems takes a linear range of "relevance" and distorts it into power law that no longer matches reality. But because this is our window into reality, we then take the result of that distortion at face value. I would love to see more systems engineered to try to balance that. Perhaps a Twitter-like system that capped the number of followers you had. A recommendation engine that subtracted out the effect of popularity when ranking. But so far I don't see many. I'm not sure if it's because it's not what people want, not what advertisers want, or what. (The great thing about knowing that this effect happens is that you can often easily acquire a better-than-average experience by deliberately stepping a little farther towards the long tail. The third best restaurant in a city is usually almost as good as #1 but noticeably cheaper. The second-most popular hike will give you 80% of the view with 20% of the crowds.)
  • schoen 7y ago
    This is a great point! I've noticed a similar thing with Muir Woods in the San Francisco Bay Area. There are other amazing ancient redwood forests in several other places nearby (e.g. Samuel P. Taylor State Park, Redwood Regional Park, Joaquin Miller Park, the north side of Mount Tamalpais facing Fairfax, and several places along both sides of Skyline Drive along the peninsula -- probably among others that I don't know). OK, the redwood trees in them might be only 80% as old and tall, the United Nations might not have been founded inside them, and some of them might have only 6 km of trails through the forest rather than 10 km. But many of these places are often nearly deserted, have no entrance fee, are a quicker and less twisty drive from San Francisco, and are incredibly majestic, peaceful, and spectacular. Meanwhile, Muir Woods had to introduce a rationing and permit system to visit by private car or public bus (https://gomuirwoods.com/ https://gomuirwoods.com/), and along the main trail on the valley floor you are basically never out of sight of other visitors during a weekend or holiday. I've reserved a picnic area inside an ancient redwood grove for an upcoming birthday picnic. https://www.yelp.com/biz/lake-lagunitas-fairfax https://www.yelp.com/biz/lake-lagunitas-fairfax OK, it's definitely no Muir Woods, but it's just 6 km north of Muir Woods and you can reserve the area for a small fee on a weekend during the summertime. I think the power-law effects you describe have been true of tourism forever. Muir Woods has attracted dramatically more tourists than the MMWD or EBMUD redwood groves for decades. But I also think you're right that the Internet is accelerating them, because you can hear about where to go via discovery mechanisms that so drastically and rapidly reward pre-existing popularity. (If you live in or visit the Bay Area, check out https://www.marinwater.org/175/Directions-Maps-to-Watershed-Sites https://www.marinwater.org/175/Directions-Maps-to-Watershed-... and https://www.ebmud.com/recreation/east-bay/east-bay-trails/ https://www.ebmud.com/recreation/east-bay/east-bay-trails/ for information about hiking in -- often -- redwood forests owned by municipal water districts in reservoir watersheds, or https://www.marinwater.org/DocumentCenter/View/156/Map_Marin_Public_Lands_2012 https://www.marinwater.org/DocumentCenter/View/156/Map_Marin... for a map of all public lands in Marin County.)
• jen729w 7y ago
  > 2. Quotas: you have to book far, far in advance and no doubt this is unfair to some people. Reminds me of that scene from Into The Wild where our protagonist tries to kayak down the Colorado River and is told by a ranger that the next permit is available in 12 years. Of course it feels absurd, but what do we do? Edit: the clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4mWt2D_d6s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4mWt2D_d6s