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Ask HN: Fired from my first job – how do I talk about it during interviews?

• tacrites 7y ago
  Telling the truth is the best policy. Just don't be too critical.
• jhatemyjob 7y ago
  FWIW I do have other experience. I have been programming for fun since 2010. And I started programming "professionally" since 2014, but it's not at in a traditional job setting. I had a couple of products on the App Store but the market changed and the money dried up. Hence the job, and why I wanted a year of experience. ALSO, there was another team that I think I would have been a much better fit for (tech lead actually gave a shit about programming and gave people autonomy) but unfortunately I did not take the initiative to switch over. I have references from other people at the company as well, including the CTO, that I actually liked working with, and they liked working with me. Unfortunately they were not on my team.
  • StudentStuff 7y ago
    Only volunteer your good references, and consider auditing your ex-employer by having a friend call HR asking about dates of employment, performance and references. Many states restrict what can be said about former employees, double check that what HR says is compliant with your local laws.
    • jhatemyjob 7y ago
      There was no HR.
      • gt2 7y ago
        In a small company, some other position will field the inquiry. Could be CEO themselves, or their assistant, or some other executive/partner.
  • Robin_Message 7y ago
    Lots have people have talked about how to conduct yourself. With regard to references, I'm not sure if this is right for your situation, but consider the following: If you got on with the CTO, I would reach out to them and ask if they could be your reference. Since they outrank your manager, most companies will happily take a reference from them, especially if you worked with them directly a bit. It might be a tricky political conversation, but if you suggest that you were disappointed how things ended, and you know how sometimes your manager can, how shall we say, put things in a negative light, they really ought to be willing. (If you're somewhere with labour laws, consider talking to a lawyer, and be willing to threaten to get a good reference and a resignation, not a firing.) Any new company, just give the CTO as the reference. If asked about it, just say something like they were best placed to assess you during your time at the company where you worked with a variety of people.
• amacalac 7y ago
  Keep it there. Be honest, tell interviewers what happened. Sounds like a shitty company; so I wouldn't expect a glowing reference...
• enz 7y ago
  I think being honest about that can work, here. Anyone will understand that your former boss was not a good boss.
• dyeje 7y ago
  People get fired, I wouldn't worry too much. Figure out a narrative that sounds good and some positive references.
• sketchthat 7y ago
  Don't be too negative of the previous company while interviewing because it comes off bad. But if you can explain things that were good, and things that were bad so it's not all negative the interviewer will understand.
• gt2 7y ago
  I think you need the position on your resume since it's a large part of your professional experience. Just put the dates, and if you are asked about why you left, you could tell a short version of your story. For instance, you didn't like the environment which didn't care about technical debt, thought it was time for a company change, and when you voiced your concerns honestly, they let you go. People know there are toxic environments out there. Very important: Try to get the new employers to fall in love with hiring you before you get to that question. You can do this by having a great introductory phone screen (try to focus them on telling you about/selling you on the position before they can focus on you. During that conversation you can explain how your skills are in line with what they need, talk a little shop, show you are qualified). Another way to achieve this is to have a great github/personal web page. If you do these things, employers will care much less about what happened at your last position and want you because of what you can do for them.
• soared 7y ago
  This may not be popular but you should, only to improve yourself, consider any mistakes you made and how you might’ve handled the job better. This is part of what your next employer will want to hear. I am not saying it wasn’t a bad situation, just that you can still learn from it. Maybe, just maybe, the timing of your vacation could’ve been a little different? Maybe you could’ve worded ‘I don’t like the job I’m only here for a year’ a little differently. Your next employer will have to decide whether the environment was toxic, or you were. Showing growth proves it was them and not you.
• hotsauceror 7y ago
  Hey there. I was in your shoes, as well. I was fired from the first organization where I'd been employed in a particular technical role, the one in which I intended to make my career. I was good at it technically but had a number of personality conflicts, partly out of frustration with things that were happening at the company and partly from personal shortcomings of my own in dealing with those frustrations. They fired me for "performance" which - take heart - can basically mean anything and nothing, and is much, much easier to deal with than having been fired "for cause". It was scary, and I wondered exactly the same things you did. I can offer you this advice FWIW. I found another job within 6 weeks of being let go, and I had two other offers on the table. * Be honest. If the web form asks you if you left the company voluntarily, say no. If you left on bad terms, they'll generally ask you whether they can contact your last employer for a reference, and you can say no. They'll get the picture. * That said, you don't exactly have to lead off every interview with it. Honestly, I don't think any of the interviewers I talked with even asked me about it. They're interested in their own impressions of you and the work you've done. * You should prepare a short explanation that - and this is important - doesn't blame or denigrate your prior employer. I mean it. Swallow whatever feelings you have about the situation and be professional about it. A new employer may not care about the circumstances of your leaving your last gig, but they WILL certainly care about the bitter, angry guy they just interviewed for this position. Something along the lines of "My leadership and I agreed that I was no longer a good fit for the position." It sounds gross, I know, but it's not really meant to be believed, and allows everyone to save a little face. * If they press you, you might frame it as "personality conflicts" or "communications issues". However you decide to frame it, rehearse the explanation and maybe a quick followup. You don't want to start to ramble when you're on the spot, because that'll make you nervous and you may stumble into saying something you regret. I know exactly what you're going through. We had just bought a house, we had a nine-month-old baby, and we didn't have much in the way of savings. It was scary as hell. But you square yourself up, set your jaw, and do what you have to do. You'll get through it, and one day you'll laugh about it. I promise you you're not the first person who's been fired. Hang in there.
  • mistersquid 7y ago
    I went through a different situation about 18 months back, the upshot being I voluntarily left as well as being unable to ask for references. I was devastated at the tine and it took me a year to recover. Your advice is excellent, full of pragmatic wisdom and, had I encountered similar guidance during my convalescence, I likely would have regained my confidence sooner. Especially useful is your suggestion to “be professional about it” as a contextualization for words “that are not really meant to be believed, and allows everyone to save a little face”. (My problem was partly that I was so angry about being mistreated that I thought the truth should come out and my manager should be held accountable. If I could have let that go sooner, I’d have recovered faster.)
• Reza1602 7y ago
  Bagaimana cara mendapatkan karma
• abbadadda 7y ago
  Don't bad-mouth your previous employer, but you can put things diplomatically. For example you can say "it was a very challenging work environment" instead of "my boss sucked." Also be prepared to talk about everything you learned and what you could have done better yourself. It seems like you have a good idea with hindsight about a lot of things that didn't seem right at the time. But as noted by others, employers understand that there are toxic work environments out there. Be honest but don't belabor the point.
• blueadept111 7y ago
  Yeah, this is an important career hack: leave your company while the leaving is good. If you stay until things go bad, then your resume will be nothing but a long list of firings and/or bad reviews. Sad but true. Took me a while to figure that out. So your last work environment was a disaster and you got fired? Here's how to describe it in your next interview: It was a GREAT PLACE to work, I loved it, so many great learning experiences! Unfortunately the objectives of the company shifted away from my core experiences and I wasn't needed, so they had to let me go. But GREAT people there. Seriously.
  • steego 7y ago
    I agree with the spin of this comment, but would add you don't want to be sycophantically positive about working there. If the place sucked, you can diplomatically point out it was a challenging experience (not ideal) and you learned a lot from it. Just don't dwell on the negative. Emphasizing the opportunities you're hoping to find in your next job might give the interviewer the impression you didn't find it to be a good fit.
  • navyad 7y ago
    why can't someone be honest about the bad experience at job?
    • kentrado 7y ago
      because you won't get hired. because interviewing in our industry is completely stupid.
      • navyad 7y ago
        yes, it is stupid.
    • rapsey 7y ago
      If he says what he said here, the interviewer will likely think: This was either a person who was impossible to work with because they always think they are right or the company was actually bad. I can't know what is true so I'm going to take someone else.
• mokurai88 7y ago
  a good worker with a shit leader all will become shit, a shit worker with a good leader they will slowly become good team. if u need the year experience, just hold on it for a lil longer, but don't just simply say yes for all of his words, silent is the best,
• mytailorisrich 7y ago
  > I only stayed there because I wanted a "year of experience" ASAP > I had a lot of suggestions for improving the codebase It's important to learn politics and humility. As a new graduate (or junior in general) on your first job you should be extremely careful about making suggestions to 'improve' things. Heck at any point of your career you should be careful about doing that soon after joining unless you were brought in as an expert to do just that. From this and the rest of your post, I would suggest that you try to develop a more diplomatic, political, and humble approach in your next job. This is an important skill.
  • winrid 7y ago
    This. Don't even make suggestions in the first SIX MONTHS. Just listen and meet expectations for a bit and then take off like a rocket once you have context.
    • mping 7y ago
      If you are on my team and make a possibly stupid suggestion, I would kindly point out that due to the development trajectory the suggestion isn't feasible (an example). If a junior dev (any dev!) is afraid of speaking, he/she will be missing an opportunity to either learn or improve. Of course, the tone of the suggestion (you should do this vs I think we may try this) and context can make or break the interaction. I don't buy into the respect by antiquity thing. Antiquity in a company only brings context and experience, not necessarily intelligence.
      • nprateem 7y ago
        Same here. But it's all in the delivery. I find it's better to assume things are the way they are for good reasons you're not aware of. It's so common for programmers to look at some code they don't fully understand and think "this is stupid it shouldn't have been done like that", start to change it and then discover - lo and behold - the previous coder wasn't an idiot. They just knew stuff you didn't. Plus things morph due to different people, politics, time pressures, etc. So I find it much better to first of all ask "hey, why does this bit do this?" Once you've got the answer, if your suggestion still holds, run it past the team at that point. But yeah, I'd be more likely to promote/recommend someone who I can see understands when things are suboptimal, provided they take the time to understand the "why" first.
• ALittleLight 7y ago
  First, I wouldn't say anything negative about the company or my experience there. As you observe about your previous manager, people don't like negative people. Your prospective employer won't appreciate hearing you complain. Negative people are also disproportionately likely to be the source of problems themselves, so complaining a lot about your previous experience will be waving a red flag that you are a potential source of problems. When discussing your previous positions stick to facts (I did X, Y, and Z) and positive notes about what you learned and accomplished. Second, I wouldn't tell people that I was fired. I would list a year of experience there. If someone asked why I left I'd say that I learned a ton, the work was interesting - whatever true and positive evaluations I had, but ultimately I wasn't sure I could accomplish my career goals at the startup and so, after giving it a year, I've decided to consider other opportunities.
• saagarjha 7y ago
  Sounds like you were stuck in an awful situation. Echoing the advice that some of the others have provided you, I’d suggest being honest, but without badmouthing the company/people you worked for. If someone asks give a brief explanation on how you did interesting work and learned new things but eventually were let go. Don’t dwell on it and don’t use it as an opportunity to seek “revenge”: you’re not going to get anything out of it and it’s a huge flag for the company that’ll hire you (will they say bad things about us if we fire them, too?) Also, just as an FYI: while your manager was wrong with most of his statements, > Killing an app in iOS via the app switcher is the same as `kill -9` iOS apps are essentially SIGKILLed if they’re swiped up on in the app switcher.
  • jhatemyjob 7y ago
    Thank you for the advice. I will try my best to not badmouth my former manager. > iOS apps are essentially SIGKILLed if they’re swiped up on in the app switcher. Sorry, I worded that poorly. To be clear, he use the word literally to describe it. Which I think is pretty misleading. iOS still calls the delegate method (and probably some other stuff) beforehand.
    • saagarjha 7y ago
      Not if the user swipes up on the app from the app switcher: you’ll literally be sent a SIGKILL from the OS.
      • jhatemyjob 7y ago
        Oh. Wow. I feel dumb now.
• anherome21003 7y ago
  Why aren't you hones and tell them that you had low performance at your previous job? I hate seeing people complaining
• MarkMarine 7y ago
  A lot of people in a position to hire have been in a startup that was in the process of failing. I don’t speak for all of them, but lots don’t care if your job worked out. Can you code, can you bring something unique, and can you work well with the team is really my criteria. I assume the other managers got it wrong, just like I assume your CS degree (or lack of) doesn’t mean you walk in the door knowing how to code and work. Prove you’re awesome in the interview and no one will care if you got fired.
• amypinka 7y ago
  You should only go to work to make money and further your career. Your next interview should know they've only got you in front of them because there is a pay rise on offer. Don't spend more than a sentence or two discussing your previous role. Describe their business model and leave it at that. 90% of your interview should be finding out what skills and tech your new employer needs and explaining to them why you're perfect for delivering those skills.
• reacweb 7y ago
  IMHO, I think you should avoid saying "the company was shit" and instead focus on what you have learned in a year, how you have improved, what are your achievements. During this year, you have been contaminated by the negativity. Try to clean up your mindset.
• xivzgrev 7y ago
  Honestly most hiring managers I’ve encountered don’t really probe into it. They will ask why you left. Say the last place was a good learning experience (after all, you did learn a shit ton of things you don’t like), and then switch to what you are looking for (ie listing out opposites of what you experienced).
• siempreb 7y ago
  Welcome to making money as a software developer. Your experience is nothing exceptional in IT, most startups are pretty bad if you ask me. You can be more picky with companies, but that will make it tricky to find a new job in time. My advice for your next job: don't mention any of the bad things you've experienced, talk about all the good things you've learned, the great team you had etc.. always remain positive in every new interview. And don't expect a great developer experience when you enter a new company, (although it sometimes happens), you work for money in the first place, and coding is your skill.
• nprateem 7y ago
  Put it on your resume. Gloss over the fact you got fired. Don't mention it. To answer the "why did you leave" question just say you felt it was time to move on and get more experience elsewhere. If they actually check references (assuming the company is still around) and ask why you didn't tell them you were fired go into detail then, explaining it was a "challenging company to work for", there were "management issues that lead to 30% of people leaving" before you joined, and in fact your firing may not have even been legal. You shouldn't lie during an interview, but you're under no obligation to be so openly honest by offering additional details that you do yourself a disservice getting another job. I.e. If they ask you directly "were you fired from your last job?" I'd answer "the job was challenging. Let me elaborate...", etc. and if pressed actually say you were fired. But if they don't ask you that direct question, just don't mention or allude to the fact you were fired. At least that's how I'd play it. Incidentally the same thing applies with "what were you earning?". Always ignore the question and deflect. Answer the question you wanted to hear which is "how much do you want?" and deflect. E.g. The correct answer is "I'm looking for $xx,000. So what sort of tech are they using?". If they press you for a figure just say you don't feel it's relevant because you took that job for a variety of reasons, but you're looking to make $xx,000. If they won't let it drop walk away unless it's megacorp that you're desperate to work for. "What's the minimum we can pay you?" is the most valuable piece of information a potential employer can find out about you and the last thing you should tell them.
  • tjansen 7y ago
    management issues that lead to 30% of people leaving Agreed, but it would even be better to give a numbers, like 5 of the 15 members quit, so it doesn't look like you're exagerating. If you need to say something negative about your old employer, try to focus on facts and give details to make it more credible (and then steer the conversation to a more positive topic as soon as possible).
  • leesec 7y ago
    I like your advice except for the "you're looking to make $xx,000'. NEVER say the first number IMO. The reason being is that it limits you to X% (prolly 5-10) range around that number. If you say I'm looking to make 80k, and they were going to offer you 120k, what do you think they're going to offer you now? Deflect until they say a number and then think carefully about making your counter.
• paulcarroty 7y ago
  Tell the truth, your lie will be detected sooner or later.
• nvarsj 7y ago
  Any sign of negativity - complaining about your prior job, or worse, the people there, is a huge red flag in an interview. They don't know you, so they only can assume it's as likely you were the problem. Interviews are, fundamentally, sales propositions. You shouldn't outright lie, but you don't need to focus on the negative things either. People on the spectrum (as many engineers tend to be...) find this kind of stuff very hard. But for most people, it's fairly normal to sugar coat things to keep the social machinery flowing. It took me a long time to learn this.
• trumbitta2 7y ago
  "It was my first job experience, and though in retrospective I think me and the startup didn't really fit well, I learned a lot." And you go on from there.
• smcl 7y ago
  "After a while I told him I didn't like the job, and the only reason why I didn't quit was because I wanted a year of experience" OK the company sounds pretty terrible and it's good that you're now able to dedicate time to finding a new job with a more sensible company. But unfortunately telling them this was probably a bit of a mistake, you should keep your cards to your chest in future. However I really don't think you need to stress too much about the "Why I left" part. You'll be asked about the technical stuff long before that even comes up, and if it does ... "Well I came back from vacation to find out I was fired for 'performance reasons' - it never came up before, I think they were upset I didn't cancel my holidays to meet the deadline for ${project}. To be honest I'm a little glad as the job was wearing me down - the team was quite unstable (30% of the engineering team quit when I joined), we had little opportunity to tackle technical debt ...". If the interviewers are reasonable they'll sieze the opportunity to ask you about how you would have preferred to handle the technical debt (or whatever the other carefully selected problems you raise here) then you're back talking tech stuff again. Others have said that you don't want to bring it up or complain as it'll be a red flag. But I don't think they'll automatically assume the employer was right, they'll be trying to figure that out while talking to you. You have the advantage in this situation because you're the one who's able to do the talking, not your previous employer. If you're calm, polite, reasonable and able to talk objectively about the situation then they'll assume it's your previous employer who was at fault :-)
• sonthonax 7y ago
  You didn't get fired. You left a startup that was shutting down, you had 2 weeks notice left and they let you go early. Unless they have documented instances of poor performance they can't really give you a bad reference. Also if there's severance pay that they're not paying because they stand by 'poor performance' they're probably asking illegally.
• hevi_jos 7y ago
  Well, you will become the people you surround yourself with. You will not change them but they will change you. "Always talked and about things he hated or how things sucked. Rarely anything positive." I don't know if you realize everything you talk about your first job is negative. I would focus on the positive and minimize exposure if it really was that bad, which I doubt, because your manager told you reasonable things. I am c programmer myself, with lots of experience programming lots of other languages, and programming raw c is extremely inefficient use of your time, most of the time. With less than 1 year of experience, your suggestions are of very little value, and if you get experience working with a bad team, you are not improving but learning bad habits. In an interview, tell the truth, but you had a bad emotional experience and are highly biased against your old job. Look at it as a neutral third person looking from outside. Be grateful for it, and start looking at the good side of it. Write it down. Forgive them, you decided to work with them so you were as responsible as they were. It is your fault as much as it is theirs. Forgiving them is forgiving you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrdEMERq8MA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrdEMERq8MA On future projects and endeavors start focusing on what you what to do, not on what you don't want to do. Companies love people that is proactive and efficient, not people that blames others, complains and put excuses. But it should not be about passing an interview. Your attitude should change.
  • hevi_jos 7y ago
    PS: As an exercise you can put things in perspective. 70 years ago, if you were to live in Germany, Poland or Russia, you will see your neighbors, friends and family slaughtered by war, your daughters or sisters or mother become raped, your possessions were looted or bombed or fired. That actually happened in places like Syria or Congo or Central African Republic recently. And the worst that happened to you? Your ego was hurt.
• LocalMan 7y ago
  If the company goes belly up that can be a good point for you. You left "Because it was becoming clear the company could not survive." Don't put all the blame on the managers, put a lot of blame on their competitors and customers. If the company is alive but on the ropes, the same tactic can be used.
• 7263255 7y ago
  I don't think anyone has addressed references yet, so as a member of many hiring teams, I'll take a stab at it. A positive way to look at being fired is that your company was having problems and your managers were stressed. You set a goal to stick it out for a year and you achieved that goal. Rather than only giving the usual two weeks notice, you let your managers know in advance that you were planning to seek other opportunities. They decided that you didn't need to work a notice period and released you immediately. We hope things have improved for them. You didn't do anything wrong. They didn't fire you because you stole from the company or were accused of sexual harassment. I will say that 20 years ago, particularly in large software companies, it was common that you would give your notice and security would escort you to the door. Companies didn't want you to work through a notice period because you were deemed "disloyal." Maybe your manager didn't grow out of this mindset. In terms of a reference, if they are smart they won't say anything negative. Most companies won't simply because they want to avoid litigation. It sounds like they have much more important things to worry about than damaging your career. Hopefully you worked with other people who can be references for you... probably worked with you more than your managers. LinkedIn is a good resource for this. You can still use references outside your employer... from school, from volunteer work, etc. Personal projects you work on can also be excellent examples of how you do things when not influenced by office politics. As best you can, build and document a case that you do/did good work. The company won't be around long to be a reference in the future. I'm sorry you had a miserable experience, but as a hiring manager it wouldn't detract from my view of you. On the side, I'd think you would appreciate working for me more since you had a bad experience somewhere else. Be thankful that you were there, yet thankful that you aren't there any longer. I appreciate that you stuck it out and that you are willing to ask for advice when you aren't sure. I think you have good qualities that I look for when hiring. Best of luck in your career.
• JSeymourATL 7y ago
  > I don't know what I'm gonna do in next interviews. Personal disclosure is a desirable managerial trait. So, you got booted. They said 'performance'. You say the place was dysfunctional. Question: What did you learn from this experience? - What do you think you would do differently? - Will any former colleagues/supervisors serve as a professional reference; vouch for the quality of your work?
  • jhatemyjob 7y ago
    > What did you learn from this experience? Spend as much time as possible with my manager BEFORE accepting the job. Keep my yap shut unless I have something useful to say. There are other "lessons" I already knew, but intentionally went against because I wanted 1 YoE and/or wanted to see what would happen: Quit if I don't like it, don't tell your manager you want to quit unless you're actually quitting, don't be negative. > What do you think you would do differently? Switch teams. > Will any colleagues/supervisors serve as a reference; vouch for the quality of your work? Yes. There were two engineering teams, I was on the shit one. There was a better engineering team (led by the CTO). Every time I worked on their codebase / interacted with them it was a positive experience. The CTO and a few people on that team reached out and said "let me know if you need anything" - so I think I'm good.
    • JSeymourATL 7y ago
      > The CTO and a few people on that team reached out and said "let me know if you need anything" Good. So, be sure incorporate this into your disclosure. That will mitigate potential Red Flags to new employers.
      • jhatemyjob 7y ago
        Thank you for walking me through this. Sorry to keep pestering you, but as far as my disclosure goes, what do ou mean? I'm not entirely sure I follow. Are you saying I should stick to those 3 bullet points you outlined?
        • 7y ago
• ryanthedev 7y ago
  Fake it until you make it.
• d--b 7y ago
  I’m not sure I agree with all the comments here. You can explain this story the same way as you did here, with perhaps a little less bitterness. Something like: “This was my first job. I thought I needed the experience, even though I knew the company was somewhat toxic. It was not going well, but thought I’d stay because it would look bad if I left. Then I told my boss things weren’t going well and he fired me, which to be honest was a relief. So all in all it was a big mistake and a waste of time, but at least now I know that company culture is important and this is also why I want to join your great company blah blah blah”