4 ms·

Honestly, saying that the NSA has done maybe one useful thing in its entire existence and that everything it does could be replaced by "simple detective work" j

by dx87 7y ago

Honestly, saying that the NSA has done maybe one useful thing in its entire existence and that everything it does could be replaced by "simple detective work" just shows you to be incredibly uninformed and ignorant about what the job of the NSA actually is.

kerkeslager 7y ago
So inform us. Present evidence for your opinion or keep your opinion to yourself.
- outside1234 7y ago
  You are kidding right? The whole cold war?
  - WhompingWindows 7y ago
    Unfounded claims, calling someone incredibly uninformed and ignorant, with zero evidence to back up these admonitions, shouldn't be posted here. If you have a claim to post, back it up with some kind of evidence or data. No one should have to be called "kidding" when they call out a lack of any kind of data.
    - jonnybgood 7y ago
      The person you’re responding to didn’t call anyone anything. Be sure to check usernames.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    During the Cold War, the US government did a lot of things which were extraordinarily harmful to US Citizens and contributed nothing to fighting Soviet totalitarianism. Soviet totalitarianism was certainly a threat, but US repsonses to Soviet totalitarianism were often counterproductive. There's a strong argument to be made that the US government did more harm to US citizens during the Cold War than the Soviets ever did. I'd be open to hearing evidence that the NSA was an exception, but you certainly haven't presented any. Simply trotting out old tired Russophobia doesn't prove that pervasive surveillance has been good for the American people, it just shows your own bias. You're turning a blind eye to the wrongs done by the US government, some of them much worse than pervasive surveillance.
    - dahdum 7y ago
      > There's a strong argument to be made that the US government did more harm to US citizens during the Cold War than the Soviets ever did. I'd be open to hearing evidence that the NSA was an exception, but you certainly haven't presented any. What harm do you claim the NSA did to Americans in that time? Their mandate is foreign surveillance, and while citizens do get caught in their net (especially with foreign contacts), it's not their focus. I can think of a couple, but they seem relatively limited? a) Surveillance revealing domestic crimes that were prosecuted through parallel construction. b) American businesses benefiting from NSA intelligence gathering, through politicians passing along information.
      - CWuestefeld 7y ago
        While it happened after the end of the USSR, we know that the NSA contrived to get a crypto system they knew to be weak standardized. And that weakness was later leveraged by hackers in at least one case.
      - throw0101a 7y ago
        > What harm do you claim the NSA did to Americans in that time? The GP did not say "NSA", but "US government". See for example: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
        kerkeslager 7y ago
        Correct, this is what I meant.
        dahdum 7y ago
        The whole thread was about the NSA's budget and mission, so I misunderstood your point. It appears you have no specific qualms with the NSA other than the fact they exist under the same government as the FBI/CIA?
        7y ago
  - SahAssar 7y ago
    Ah, so the NSA was the reason the cold war ended as it did? Via what specific actions/events?
- dahdum 7y ago
  Here's a decent article highlighting 4 attacks of the 50 they claim to have foiled since 2001. https://www.ibtimes.com/four-times-nsa-surveillance-programs-stopped-attack-1312309 https://www.ibtimes.com/four-times-nsa-surveillance-programs...
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    > The first example was the case of Najibullah Zazi, who confessed to plotting to bomb the New York City subway system in 2009. Joyce confirmed that the NSA’s Internet surveillance program led officials to a suspect in Colorado who turned out to be Zazi. The FBI took the necessary legal steps to identify him and ultimately capture him, in concert with authorities in New York. Under Section 215's authority, Joyce said, the NSA was also able to nail down a “previously unknown [phone] number of one of the co-conspirators.” > “Without the 702 tool, we would not have identified Najibullah Zazi,” Joyce said later in the hearing. Okay, sounds pretty legit. His plea bargain was partly informed by threatening his parents[1], but it does sound like there was a lot of other evidence collected through traditional police methods. > The second instance described was a thwarted plot to bomb the New York Stock Exchange. Under Section 702's authority, the NSA monitored a known extremist in Yemen who was communicating with a man in Kansas City, Mo. This information led the FBI to Khalid Ouazzani, his co-conspirators and ultimately the plot to bomb the NYSE. Ouazzani ultimately confessed to sending money to al-Qaeda and was never convicted for the stock exchange plot. Okay, so we... removed a small funding source of Al Queda? Maybe it's just me, but if I were trying to attack Al Queda's funding, I'd start with not having the CIA give them millions of dollars[2] before going the "surveil all Americans" route. For comparison, the CIA gave them $2 million in one payment[2], while Ouazzani gave them $23K[3]. The NSA yearly budget is ~$10 billion.[4] The NYC police budget was $5.6 billion in 2018[5] and they handled 295 homicide cases in 2018[6]. > The third instance cited by Joyce was the case of David Headley, an American in Chicago who aided the 2008 Mumbai terrorist attacks. The FBI had received a tip about his involvement in the attacks when the NSA’s 702 surveillance also identified Headley as involved in a plot to bomb a Danish newspaper office that had published cartoons of the Prophet Mohamed that were considered offensive by some Muslims. “Headley later confessed to personally conducting surveillance of the Danish newspaper office,” Joyce said. So basically, this guy was already going to be arrested for the 2008 Mumbai Terrorist Attacks, but due to surveillance they were able to also charge him for... surveiling. The irony is staggering. > Regarding the final case, Joyce testified that data collection under Section 215 helped uncover terrorist activity that the FBI had been unable to detect previously. In 2007, the FBI closed an investigation it had launched shortly after Sept. 11, when it could not connect the subject of the investigation to terrorist activity. Years later, under its Section 215-sanctioned metadata collection program, the NSA identified a phone number in San Diego that was in contact with a known terrorist overseas. The NSA’s discovery allowed the FBI to reopen the investigation and disrupt the terrorist activity. Joyce later confirmed that the activity involved providing financial support to a designated terrorist group overseas. This could not possibly be more vague. Ostensibly, since the source is the NSA's PR team, these were the best cases the NSA could come up with? This sounds like a strong argument that the money should be better spent on traditional law enforcement. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najibullah_Zazi#Guilty_plea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najibullah_Zazi#Guilty_plea [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/world/asia/cia-funds-found-their-way-into-al-qaeda-coffers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/world/asia/cia-funds-foun... [3] https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/kansascity/press-releases/2010/kc051910.htm https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/kansascity/press-releases/... [4] https://threatpost.com/nsa-metadata-program-likely-not-cost-effective-researchers-say/103422/ https://threatpost.com/nsa-metadata-program-likely-not-cost-... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Departmen... [6] [Excel File Warning] https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/excel/analysis_and_planning/supplementary-homicide/supplementary-homicide-report-cy2018.xlsx https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/excel/analysis_an...
- solidasparagus 7y ago
  He didn't give any less evidence than OP.
  - SkyBelow 7y ago
    I claim there isn't a teapot. You claim there is. Who has to provide evidence? What happens when one applies this to claims about an organization?
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    To explain the other response you received: It's common knowledge that NSA dragnet surveillance recorded the phone calls and captured the metadata of almost every American for a few years, and probably still is. This, I would argue, we can agree upon without having to present evidence. If you're going to argue that this violation of human rights was necessary, the burden of proof is on you to prove this extraordinary claim.

by dx87 7y ago

kerkeslager 7y ago

So inform us. Present evidence for your opinion or keep your opinion to yourself.

outside1234 7y ago
You are kidding right? The whole cold war?
- WhompingWindows 7y ago
  Unfounded claims, calling someone incredibly uninformed and ignorant, with zero evidence to back up these admonitions, shouldn't be posted here. If you have a claim to post, back it up with some kind of evidence or data. No one should have to be called "kidding" when they call out a lack of any kind of data.
  - jonnybgood 7y ago
    The person you’re responding to didn’t call anyone anything. Be sure to check usernames.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  During the Cold War, the US government did a lot of things which were extraordinarily harmful to US Citizens and contributed nothing to fighting Soviet totalitarianism. Soviet totalitarianism was certainly a threat, but US repsonses to Soviet totalitarianism were often counterproductive. There's a strong argument to be made that the US government did more harm to US citizens during the Cold War than the Soviets ever did. I'd be open to hearing evidence that the NSA was an exception, but you certainly haven't presented any. Simply trotting out old tired Russophobia doesn't prove that pervasive surveillance has been good for the American people, it just shows your own bias. You're turning a blind eye to the wrongs done by the US government, some of them much worse than pervasive surveillance.
  - dahdum 7y ago
    > There's a strong argument to be made that the US government did more harm to US citizens during the Cold War than the Soviets ever did. I'd be open to hearing evidence that the NSA was an exception, but you certainly haven't presented any. What harm do you claim the NSA did to Americans in that time? Their mandate is foreign surveillance, and while citizens do get caught in their net (especially with foreign contacts), it's not their focus. I can think of a couple, but they seem relatively limited? a) Surveillance revealing domestic crimes that were prosecuted through parallel construction. b) American businesses benefiting from NSA intelligence gathering, through politicians passing along information.
    - CWuestefeld 7y ago
      While it happened after the end of the USSR, we know that the NSA contrived to get a crypto system they knew to be weak standardized. And that weakness was later leveraged by hackers in at least one case.
    - throw0101a 7y ago
      > What harm do you claim the NSA did to Americans in that time? The GP did not say "NSA", but "US government". See for example: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
      - kerkeslager 7y ago
        Correct, this is what I meant.
        dahdum 7y ago
        The whole thread was about the NSA's budget and mission, so I misunderstood your point. It appears you have no specific qualms with the NSA other than the fact they exist under the same government as the FBI/CIA?
        7y ago
- SahAssar 7y ago
  Ah, so the NSA was the reason the cold war ended as it did? Via what specific actions/events?
dahdum 7y ago
Here's a decent article highlighting 4 attacks of the 50 they claim to have foiled since 2001. https://www.ibtimes.com/four-times-nsa-surveillance-programs-stopped-attack-1312309 https://www.ibtimes.com/four-times-nsa-surveillance-programs...
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  > The first example was the case of Najibullah Zazi, who confessed to plotting to bomb the New York City subway system in 2009. Joyce confirmed that the NSA’s Internet surveillance program led officials to a suspect in Colorado who turned out to be Zazi. The FBI took the necessary legal steps to identify him and ultimately capture him, in concert with authorities in New York. Under Section 215's authority, Joyce said, the NSA was also able to nail down a “previously unknown [phone] number of one of the co-conspirators.” > “Without the 702 tool, we would not have identified Najibullah Zazi,” Joyce said later in the hearing. Okay, sounds pretty legit. His plea bargain was partly informed by threatening his parents[1], but it does sound like there was a lot of other evidence collected through traditional police methods. > The second instance described was a thwarted plot to bomb the New York Stock Exchange. Under Section 702's authority, the NSA monitored a known extremist in Yemen who was communicating with a man in Kansas City, Mo. This information led the FBI to Khalid Ouazzani, his co-conspirators and ultimately the plot to bomb the NYSE. Ouazzani ultimately confessed to sending money to al-Qaeda and was never convicted for the stock exchange plot. Okay, so we... removed a small funding source of Al Queda? Maybe it's just me, but if I were trying to attack Al Queda's funding, I'd start with not having the CIA give them millions of dollars[2] before going the "surveil all Americans" route. For comparison, the CIA gave them $2 million in one payment[2], while Ouazzani gave them $23K[3]. The NSA yearly budget is ~$10 billion.[4] The NYC police budget was $5.6 billion in 2018[5] and they handled 295 homicide cases in 2018[6]. > The third instance cited by Joyce was the case of David Headley, an American in Chicago who aided the 2008 Mumbai terrorist attacks. The FBI had received a tip about his involvement in the attacks when the NSA’s 702 surveillance also identified Headley as involved in a plot to bomb a Danish newspaper office that had published cartoons of the Prophet Mohamed that were considered offensive by some Muslims. “Headley later confessed to personally conducting surveillance of the Danish newspaper office,” Joyce said. So basically, this guy was already going to be arrested for the 2008 Mumbai Terrorist Attacks, but due to surveillance they were able to also charge him for... surveiling. The irony is staggering. > Regarding the final case, Joyce testified that data collection under Section 215 helped uncover terrorist activity that the FBI had been unable to detect previously. In 2007, the FBI closed an investigation it had launched shortly after Sept. 11, when it could not connect the subject of the investigation to terrorist activity. Years later, under its Section 215-sanctioned metadata collection program, the NSA identified a phone number in San Diego that was in contact with a known terrorist overseas. The NSA’s discovery allowed the FBI to reopen the investigation and disrupt the terrorist activity. Joyce later confirmed that the activity involved providing financial support to a designated terrorist group overseas. This could not possibly be more vague. Ostensibly, since the source is the NSA's PR team, these were the best cases the NSA could come up with? This sounds like a strong argument that the money should be better spent on traditional law enforcement. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najibullah_Zazi#Guilty_plea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najibullah_Zazi#Guilty_plea [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/world/asia/cia-funds-found-their-way-into-al-qaeda-coffers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/world/asia/cia-funds-foun... [3] https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/kansascity/press-releases/2010/kc051910.htm https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/kansascity/press-releases/... [4] https://threatpost.com/nsa-metadata-program-likely-not-cost-effective-researchers-say/103422/ https://threatpost.com/nsa-metadata-program-likely-not-cost-... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Departmen... [6] [Excel File Warning] https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/excel/analysis_and_planning/supplementary-homicide/supplementary-homicide-report-cy2018.xlsx https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/excel/analysis_an...
solidasparagus 7y ago
He didn't give any less evidence than OP.
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  I claim there isn't a teapot. You claim there is. Who has to provide evidence? What happens when one applies this to claims about an organization?
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  To explain the other response you received: It's common knowledge that NSA dragnet surveillance recorded the phone calls and captured the metadata of almost every American for a few years, and probably still is. This, I would argue, we can agree upon without having to present evidence. If you're going to argue that this violation of human rights was necessary, the burden of proof is on you to prove this extraordinary claim.