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Are black holes made of dark energy?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 7y agoAnyone have access to E.B. Gliner's 1966 paper describing a GEODE?
- gilbetron 7y agoI think this is it: http://www.jetp.ac.ru/cgi-bin/dn/e_022_02_0378.pdf http://www.jetp.ac.ru/cgi-bin/dn/e_022_02_0378.pdf
- krastanov 7y agoThis is actually a pretty well known, but not generally accepted alternative theory of dark energy called backreaction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-reaction#Cosmology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-reaction#Cosmology
- primis 7y agoWhat is meant here by "exotic crust" of the black hole. I assume it's something inside the event horizon
- excalibur 7y agoNear the boundary anyway. The headline is poorly worded, but the argument is that some of these objects aren't black holes at all. I don't think the "event horizon" term really applies to GEODEs. I also don't think they have too clear an understanding of what this crust would consist of, or if they do the article fails to mention it.
- ars 7y agoThese objects would no longer be black holes, and would not have event horizons. LIGO and other detects are not able to tell the difference. Black holes are assumed based on the mass, event horizons have never been detected, just [mathematically] assumed.
- bwood 7y agoDoes this not count as detection of an event horizon? Or is it just considered strong circumstantial evidence? https://eventhorizontelescope.org/ https://eventhorizontelescope.org/
- ars 7y agoNo, that is not evidence of an event horizon, it's not circumstantial evidence either because it pre-supposes the existence of one. Despite the name, no event horizon was directly photographed. Partly because event horizon's are not actually visible LOL. The photo taken can not distinguish between a true black hole, and a super massive object of the same mass. We just assume that if you have that much mass there is no force that is capable of preventing it from becoming a black hole. But, that's not proof that such a force does not exist.
- aalleavitch 7y agoSo this is something I was thinking about recently. Given that quantum harmonic oscillation indicates that quanta are actually defined as harmonics of a fundamental frequency, what if dark matter is simply all energy at a frequency that isn’t a harmonic? Likewise, what if dark energy is simply the quantum harmonic oscillator that is our universe undergoing damping? That is to say, it’s not so much that space is expanding as it is that the frequency of our universe is diminishing: lower frequency = higher wavelength, which appears to us like space is growing. The graph of an oscillator undergoing damping looks an awful lot like models of dark energy expansion of the universe. If this were the case, we could think of black holes as nodes on this wave.
- Justcreatednow 7y agoWow! What about posting this on /r/asksciencediscussion or Physics.SE and get some review? I would be interested in reading discussions about this
- fallingfrog 7y agoThe s orbital electrons around an atom is the fundamental, the p and other orbitals are harmonics. I think you’ve stretched your analogy too far.
- aalleavitch 7y agoCouldn’t the s orbital itself be a harmonic of an even lower fundamental?
- fallingfrog 7y agoNo, because the energy of the electron is known and is always quantized.
- tedsanders 7y agoWhen you say this what do you mean? Here are some statements of my own, typed quickly on a phone before I head to work: -Electrons do not in general have quantized energy; only bound electrons have a discrete energy spectrum -Electrons do not necessarily have a single energy; although energy eigenstates form a basis that can describe all states, very often the electron won't be in a pure eigenstate -Single electron models are simplifications; in general, atoms will have multielectron states that are very difficult to write down or reason about; it's deep and non-obvious why single electron models do so well at describing behavior of multielectron wavefunctions
- MiroF 7y agoI only have up to university quantum (so no GR), but my understanding was that dark energy was believed to be equally distributed throughout all of space. How would a GEODE produce such an effect?
- psv1 7y agoI haven't done any physics past high school but isn't dark energy basically "Our equations don't work out, let's give our error term a name and act like it's all good"? I'm sure this is oversimplified or outright wrong, can anyone correct me?
- cthalupa 7y ago>"Our equations don't work out, let's give our error term a name and act like it's all good" Not really. People make this argument for both dark energy and dark matter, and some people try to solve both of these (not necessarily at the same time) by trying to modify general relativity. The problem is that we have observational evidence for both of them, and no alternative theory has come close to the level of accuracy and precision as GR has. That isn't to say that we shouldn't be looking at potential alternative explanations to DM/DE, and the fact that there isn't scientific consensus on them at current doesn't mean that they're wrong (Wegener basically ended up losing his career over proposing continental drift was a thing), but at present, scientific consensus is overwhelmingly in favor of both DE and DM existing because we have more evidence for them than anything else, and the models that incorporate them are more accurate and precise than anything else. That's not to say there isn't room for improvement in GR/SR/QM, etc. And there are some things where the math breaks down and we do sort of just shrug. Topically, black holes are among them - at least when it comes to the singularity and infinite density. In reality, the black holes we see out in the universe almost certainly don't have a point of infinite density.
- dwaltrip 7y agoYou make it sound like the scientists are doing something shady, which is completely untrue... plenty of good science has been done on dark energy / dark matter. This is simply a prime example of how it looks when important observations aren't fully understood. So that's a problem with your wording.
- fallingfrog 7y agoJust a clarification, the article states that GEODEs are not black holes, they just look similar from the outside since they are almost dense enough but not quite.
- iphuong 7y agowow
- foxes 7y agoI'm reminded about Mach's principle [0]. Its interesting to see a connection between local structure and then something more global. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach%27s_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach%27s_principle
- abakus 7y agoWhere did the dark energy come from? Before collapse these are just normal big stars, we cannot detect dark energy from them, but after explosion they suddenly become GEODE teemed with dark energy? I am a bit confused.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- rurban 7y agoDark energy is simply a theory with a classical hidden constant, which solves all the measurements and theories, but does most likely not exist. Until a better theory explains more (like the Mond or a better gravity theory), it will stay with us for a while.
- kovek 7y agoFor the last few days I've been trying to make as many associations as possible between (the big bang, the progression of the universe, and the end of the universe) and a black hole's progression. For some reason this makes me think yet again that the universe might be inside a black hole.
- soulofmischief 7y agoIs that black hole inside another black hole?
- Taniwha 7y agoturtles all the way down ....
- cthalupa 7y agoYou're not the only one that has proposed this idea :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_cosmology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_cosmology
- pdonis 7y agoAs usual, phys.org makes claims that go way beyond what the actual paper justifies. The actual paper is here: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-4357/ab32da https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-4357/ab32da The phys.org article says "Two University of Hawaii at Manoa researchers have identified and corrected a subtle error that was made when applying Einstein's equations to model the growth of the universe". A more accurate phrasing would be that the researchers have proposed a modified model. Whether their proposal is valid remains to be seen as other researchers in the field check their work.
- spaceandshit 7y agoI've always felt that phys.org is a reliable, less-sensationalized source for interesting science articles. Is it common for them to "make claims that go way beyond what the paper justifies"?
- pdonis 7y ago> Is it common for them to "make claims that go way beyond what the paper justifies"? I've seen it enough times that it doesn't surprise me.
- ben_w 7y agoA shower thought after watching some recent PBS Space Time videos: if the (hypothetical) inflaton field of the early universe is associated with certain high energy density conditions, could the interior of a black hole (specifically the region near what would be the singularity under vanilla general relativity) reproduce those conditions and return the inflaton field to the inflation-era state? Related thought: what would it look like from the outside if a patch of the universe returned to inflation? Does it make any difference from the observer’s POV if this change occurs inside or outside an event horizon?
- bagswatchesus 7y agoTopically, black holes are among them - at least when it comes to the singularity and infinite density - https://www.guccibagshk.com/replica-gucci-handbags https://www.guccibagshk.com/replica-gucci-handbags
- Robotbeat 7y ago> In 1998, two independent teams of astronomers discovered that the expansion of the Universe is accelerating, consistent with the presence of a uniform contribution of Dark Energy. It was not recognized, however, that GEODEs could contribute in this way. With the corrected formalism, Croker and Weiner showed that if a fraction of the oldest stars collapsed into GEODEs, instead of black holes, their averaged contribution today would naturally produce the required uniform Dark Energy. Hmmm, if this is true, then it means it's possible (in principle) to engineer the expansion rate of the universe by either preventing or causing the collapse of stars in a certain way. See the concept of Star Lifting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_lifting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_lifting
- ttlei 7y agoGeneric Objects of Dark Energy... Is this exotic matter with negative energy?
- humble_engineer 7y agoDark energy is a placeholder word to explain a phenomena scientists can't understand. Before Einstein they didn't know what the medium was for light waves. For water waves it is obviously water, what does light use to travel through? They created this phrase called "ether" light traveled through "ether". Dark energy and dark matter are exactly the same case.
- philipov 7y agoPhysicists don't actually call it dark energy, that word is for journalists. Physicists call it the cosmological constant.
- humble_engineer 7y agoBut they do use dark matter
- tony 7y agoDoes dark energy or dark matter box-in our way of thinking? Have we actually proved scientifically there's a force or physical matter acting on something and it's not just being obscured from our vantage point? Isn't dark energy/matter only visible at huge scales? Is there any pictures of dark energy or matter in any localized system? We didn't even know the correct color of Pluto until we got close, how could we know if something isn't actually there, or spacetime just twists and contorts for the sake of it without outside interaction/gravity acting on it? Isn't there also a chance we're in a literal simulation of Plato's cave allegory until we see stuff up close? Not in the sense he meant it, but in the sense we're using assumptions/tools that involve inference. Wouldn't this risk assigning character/classifications to things that don't turn out to be true in the end?
- joe_the_user 7y agoHave we actually proved scientifically there's a force or physical matter acting on something and it's not just being obscured from our vantage point? -- In the case of dark matter, the answer is yes. Dark matter has been indirectly observed from the gravitational lensing of the dark matter shrouds surrounding galaxies - notably in situations where the shrouds of two colliding galaxies separate from the galaxies themselves. It's a "picture" as exact as many things astronomers have observed.
- alfiedotwtf 7y ago> in situations where the shrouds of two colliding galaxies separate from the galaxies themselves TIL... That’s the first time I’ve read that. Sounds interesting, have you got any links?
- gepoch 7y agoSounds like he's talking about the bullet cluster... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_Cluster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_Cluster Although that's a colliding pair of galaxy clusters. I'm not currently aware of any examples of this effect being observed for just two galaxies.
- sebastianconcpt 7y agoOne consequence of this study is that the growth rate of the universe provides information about what happens to stars at the end of their lives. Astronomers typically assume that large stars form black holes when they die, but this is not the only possible outcome. In 1966, Erast Gliner, a young physicist at the Ioffe Physico-Technical Institute in Leningrad, proposed an alternative hypothesis that very large stars should collapse into what could now be called Generic Objects of Dark Energy (GEODEs). These appear to be black holes when viewed from the outside but, unlike black holes, they contain Dark Energy instead of a singularity.
- andrewflnr 7y agoInteresting to see a causal connection from local scopes to universal. I've been thinking about the converse. A fair number of theories of black holes, like the event horizon firewall, depend on interaction with cosmic background radiation. If fundamental properties of black holes are tied to the circumstances of the formation of the universe they live in, and those properties end up, and those properties are also tied to quantum gravity, that would mean there's an interesting connection between the three story of the universe's formation and it's fundamental laws. I realize I'm pretty deep into crackpot territory, even with all the if's, but it's at least a fun idea.