10 ms·
Don't oversimplify the issue. > it's trivial to change your DoH provider Cloudfare is the default. Cloudfare is the only provider listed. Cloudfare will be
by huhtenberg 7y ago
Don't oversimplify the issue.
> it's trivial to change your DoH provider
Cloudfare is the default.
Cloudfare is the only provider listed.
Cloudfare will be On by default, so it will be that for 99.999% of Firefox users.
That ain't right no matter how well intended it is.
- wruza 7y agoThe other viable doh provider is google. Other’s timeout is simply not worth the request, in my experience. How does one choose from these two?
- ndidi 7y agoNo, the other viable option is not enabling DoH by default.
- m-p-3 7y agoprivacy-wise, plaintext is the worst option possible.
- ndidi 7y agoI can think of something worse: sending all your DNS queries to an unregulated third party.
- lousken 7y agoaren't you still sending your data to unregulated third party with any ISP? (i dont live in the US so i am not aware if they're regulated in this regard)
- Grimm665 7y agoThis is already what happens. Your DNS queries have to go somewhere, and unless you control the DNS servers, there's a third party in the loop somewhere.
- apexalpha 7y agoNot really, my DNS requests go to my ISP's DNS server. And the ISP sees the requests anyway since they are the one forwarding all the packets. Now, Cloudfare will see them too. (if this would come to my country).
- SAI_Peregrinus 7y agoBut your ISP won't see them. They'll see that some requests are being made to Cloudflare, but not anything about the content.
- apexalpha 7y agoNo I mean in my current situation if my ISP is also my DNS provider they will get the requests. But they can already see what sites I visit because they are my ISP and carry my packets. In Mozilla's new default implementation Cloudflare will also see them, without me ever knowing (as an average user).
- codedokode 7y agoWith TLS1.3, encrypted SNI, encrypted DNS the ISP can only see the IP address you are connecting to, not a domain name. For Google's resources it only sees that you are connecting to Google's network, but is it Youtube or Gmail or Maps, they cannot tell (which is awesome by the way).
- avmich 7y agoWith Tor ISP can't even see the final address, but maybe Tor has its own solutions for DNS?
- yjftsjthsd-h 7y agoOnion sites use a keypair as their "name"
- codedokode 7y agoISP and government are that "unregulated third party".
- tannhaeuser 7y agoISPs are highly regulated, as opposed to Cloudflare and Google. The only effect here is that Google closes another "loophole" in their view where web visit signals are send to another party (other than Google), and Cloudflare wanting their share of the cake as well. Has Mozilla disclosed what Cloudflare is paying them for being listed as default DoH provider?
- pixl97 7y agoISP's are highly regulated when it comes to DNS? Not here in the US they are not.
- tannhaeuser 7y agoWell to buy a domain you need to go to an accredited registrar for the respective TLD. And DNS registrations, renewals, etc. are standardized (and have TLD-specific policies). Also, you're entitled to transfer your domain name to another registratr, etc., also with a public and transparent protocol. The registrar will then arrange for their nameserver being registered as authoritative for your domain on the TLD's root domain server, etc. What's the problem with US ISPs here? That they're selling DNS query records (with your IP) against their nameservers? That's in the same territory as Cloudflare and Google, and will only stop with proper privacy laws; certainly not by giving up on the decentralized nature of DNS and giving all traffic/signals to Cloudflare/Google.
- huhtenberg 7y agoPlaintext doesn't route every god damn request through Google or Cloudfare.
- m-p-3 7y agoIf you have a Chromecast, it's already sending the DNS requests to 8.8.8.8 unless you specifically block the IP.
- southerntofu 7y ago> If you have a Chromecast Why the hell would anyone buy hardware from an evil spyware company such as Google? Of course you can never trust a private corporation to do stuff in the public interest.
- Youden 7y agoI disagree, at least in my situation. My DNS requests traverse my ISP's network to my ISP's DNS server (or my employer's ISP's DNS server if I'm at work). I live in a country where I have very strong privacy protections and what my ISP can and can't do with my DNS requests is extremely limited. If my DNS requests are sent to CloudFlare or Google instead, my DNS requests are under American jurisdiction, where I have no rights and both American businesses and the American government can do whatever they please with no real recourse.
- o-__-o 7y agoCouldn’t your isp watch traffic to pull out SNI information?
- wp381640 7y agothe next step is eSNI and judging by the DoH rollout that will also be a new level of controversy advocating against it
- ithkuil 7y agoWhat are the arguments against eSNI?
- ti_ranger 7y ago> What are the arguments against eSNI? Institutions providing internet access, but with an obligation or operational requirement to block certain kinds of content (e.g. insufficient network capacity on the free WiFi at a hospital to allow streaming video for all visitors) would not be able to do it at all. Privacy proponents seem to forget that there are sometimes reasonable reasons to allow traffic to be blocked, and instead of looking for a real solution, are imposing ridiculous "solutions" on all Firefox users.
- codedokode 7y agoSo it depends on the country. In my country (Russia) all Internet traffic is being recorded by the ISP for the last month and sites are blocked on political reasons. For me having DoH with Cloudflare is better.
- wruza 7y agoI think you mistook it. I was talking about doh providers, not all options, and responded to a line completely tangential, if not unrelated to what you try to bring here. An answer looking for a question, I guess?
- tannhaeuser 7y agoAnd that should surely be the default. What's Mozilla's intent to send DNS queries to Cloudflare by default, and require regular DNS resolution to be configured manually?
- eps 7y agoYes, that's exactly their plan at the moment. Hence the whole brouhaha.
- oakslab 7y agoEven Quad9[1] or NextDNS[2]? Quad9 works well for me. [1]: https://quad9.net/doh-quad9-dns-servers/ https://quad9.net/doh-quad9-dns-servers/ [2]: https://nextdns.io/ https://nextdns.io/
- codedokode 7y agoSo the solution could be to make it so that there are many DoH providers and a browser would choose one of them randomly (or by user's choice).
- brians 7y agoTor has some nice papers about what happens if you try that: the NSA and KGB each run a server and content themselves with getting a sample of the population.
- southerntofu 7y ago> the NSA and KGB each run a server and content themselves with getting a sample Which is already a lot better than getting 100% from simply spying on CloudFlare or serving them with "National Security Letters".
- dreamcompiler 7y agoOr -- much better -- use DoT instead of DoH so port 443 isn't getting misused for DNS.
- tastroder 7y agoWhile that's an unpopular opinion I tend to agree, I'm still on the fence if that's really bad or if I'm just grumpy about change though. It really feels like instead of fixing the underlying problems we're duct taping the internet by moving HTTPS to OSI layer 4 and making TCP and the concept of ports obsolete for a majority of use cases - which in many cases implies a loss of control. I'm honestly not sure why our sector pushes HTTPS solutions over plain TLS, is it just because it blends in with web traffic and it's easier to grasp because more people are familiar with the basic concepts? Of course there's arguments for and against these aspects in the case of name resolution, both technical and on a legislative level, but maybe a net win in terms of privacy protection for the majority of users is still worth it. And should Cloudflare or whoever decide to misbehave with the data we send, it'll at least be easy to switch to other providers when DoH is widely adopted.
- morpheuskafka 7y agoAnd for regular DNS, their ISP/employer/school will be the service provider for 99.9999% of users. Regular DNS is not exactly easy to find (on Windows, it's under Settings -> Network -> Change Adapter Options -> Adapter Name -> IPv4 -> Properties), which is arguably as hard as going to about:config. And there is no menu of providers listed--nor does it explain who would choose the "automatic" DNS server options (the one that uses DHCP). So the status quo is no better than this, and at least this is encrypted and protected by a privacy guarantee. Now I agree that ideally a user-visible preference should be created for the DoH resolver, but I don't think that's a blocking issue. Just like the accounts features uses a mozilla server, and chrome uses google accounts, and both use google safe browsing lists, browsers have always made the decision to hardcode various external service providers.
- the_gipsy 7y ago> So the status quo is no better than this You're completely missing the point. Users have many different ISPs, and them knowing DNS queries is not a problem because it's the ISP anyway. Now a browser wants to change that behavior, and send ALL queries to one american company.
- klingonopera 7y agoIndeed, I think that in this case, on the whole, more privacy is achieved by decentralization rather than by encryption...
- exadeci 7y agoI'm on Firefox 69, it's disabled, I never touched it.