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> you're shifting the culture to make it that much more acceptable to demand it of everyone. I would argue the cowards who refuse to ever stand up to employers

> you're shifting the culture to make it that much more acceptable to demand it of everyone. I would argue the cowards who refuse to ever stand up to employers are the cause. If you aren't able to push back on your boss, you're fucked regardless of how many hours I choose to work.

RankingMember 7y ago
If everyone stood up maybe we could have some sort of organized labor...wait, that's the ticket, a union! (Seriously, I think that's more in line with what's needed, otherwise you become the squeaky wheel most likely to be replaced when belt tightening comes.)
- mieseratte 7y ago
  As a perennial squeaky wheel who happens to work too much, I think you're on to something.
asveikau 7y ago
> I would argue [...] are the cause There is a problem in thinking any one thing is "the cause". It's a multi-faceted problem of many self-reinforcing causes. The comment above talking about "shifting the culture to make it that much more acceptable" is a nod to the subtlety of what contributes to this. All parties, employers and employees both, need to see how they do this.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > The comment above talking about "shifting the culture to make it that much more acceptable" is a nod to the subtlety of what contributes to this. I see no "nod to subtlety" as you claim. All I see is a claim that one employee's overwork is what enables the boss to force you into overwork. For this to happen one needs 1) routine culture of overwork, 2) and employer who leans into this fact, and 3) an inability or unwillingness to push-back. If you solve for #3 you've made #1 and #2 irrelevant. Calling for others to stop willingly work as much reminds me of an old film I'd seen as a kid wherein a new employee starts at a loading dock, and after his first highly performant day the old-timers come along and give him a talking to about his making them look bad. You'll only look bad if your team and boss expect the "above and beyond" to become the new norm, and this isn't a rule. It is a result of shit conditions. Just as expecting your coworkers to go above and beyond is bad, so is chiding them for willingly working harder than you.
  - LocalH 7y ago
    Calling people "cowards" who may individually be in no position to push back, doesn't really help the problem. It drips of condescension. Your point is sound. It's also more ascerbic than it needs to be.
  - asveikau 7y ago
    I think you underestimate how easy it is for a CEO, manager, or even high-performing/high-status peer or IC to set the tone and give implicit instruction to others without ever intending to do it. I have seen it in very mundane things that are not nearly of the magnitude of consequence of this topic. And also, in big things, such as expectations around working hours and standing up to unreasonable requirements. Perhaps one aspect is that if a behavior is perceived to be a path to success in an organization, it will be emulated, rightly or wrongly, consciously or not. It's important to create an environment where many can thrive.
  - i_cant_speel 7y ago
    Maybe you can "push back" and get out of additional work. But when it's that time of year for raises or promotions, who do you think is going to be the first in line?
  - rdtwo 7y ago
    When has any production/productivity increase not become the new norm? Have you ever finished a 6 month job in 5 and been given 6 months again the next time. Everywhere I’ve worked if you finish a month early you just get 2 months less the next time because obviously you weren’t challenged enough
electricviolet 7y ago
Let's be clear -- the biggest responsibility for change rests on those who have the most power. Those "cowards" may have no savings and could be fired at the drop of a hat. But if what you mean is that employees have a choice between passively accepting the status quo or trying to act collectively to improve their conditions, then yes, I agree.
CalRobert 7y ago
You lose the freedom to test your boss' limits the day your job is the source of your child's health insurance.

RankingMember 7y ago

If everyone stood up maybe we could have some sort of organized labor...wait, that's the ticket, a union! (Seriously, I think that's more in line with what's needed, otherwise you become the squeaky wheel most likely to be replaced when belt tightening comes.)

mieseratte 7y ago
As a perennial squeaky wheel who happens to work too much, I think you're on to something.

asveikau 7y ago

> I would argue [...] are the cause There is a problem in thinking any one thing is "the cause". It's a multi-faceted problem of many self-reinforcing causes. The comment above talking about "shifting the culture to make it that much more acceptable" is a nod to the subtlety of what contributes to this. All parties, employers and employees both, need to see how they do this.

mieseratte 7y ago
> The comment above talking about "shifting the culture to make it that much more acceptable" is a nod to the subtlety of what contributes to this. I see no "nod to subtlety" as you claim. All I see is a claim that one employee's overwork is what enables the boss to force you into overwork. For this to happen one needs 1) routine culture of overwork, 2) and employer who leans into this fact, and 3) an inability or unwillingness to push-back. If you solve for #3 you've made #1 and #2 irrelevant. Calling for others to stop willingly work as much reminds me of an old film I'd seen as a kid wherein a new employee starts at a loading dock, and after his first highly performant day the old-timers come along and give him a talking to about his making them look bad. You'll only look bad if your team and boss expect the "above and beyond" to become the new norm, and this isn't a rule. It is a result of shit conditions. Just as expecting your coworkers to go above and beyond is bad, so is chiding them for willingly working harder than you.
- LocalH 7y ago
  Calling people "cowards" who may individually be in no position to push back, doesn't really help the problem. It drips of condescension. Your point is sound. It's also more ascerbic than it needs to be.
- asveikau 7y ago
  I think you underestimate how easy it is for a CEO, manager, or even high-performing/high-status peer or IC to set the tone and give implicit instruction to others without ever intending to do it. I have seen it in very mundane things that are not nearly of the magnitude of consequence of this topic. And also, in big things, such as expectations around working hours and standing up to unreasonable requirements. Perhaps one aspect is that if a behavior is perceived to be a path to success in an organization, it will be emulated, rightly or wrongly, consciously or not. It's important to create an environment where many can thrive.
- i_cant_speel 7y ago
  Maybe you can "push back" and get out of additional work. But when it's that time of year for raises or promotions, who do you think is going to be the first in line?
- rdtwo 7y ago
  When has any production/productivity increase not become the new norm? Have you ever finished a 6 month job in 5 and been given 6 months again the next time. Everywhere I’ve worked if you finish a month early you just get 2 months less the next time because obviously you weren’t challenged enough

electricviolet 7y ago

Let's be clear -- the biggest responsibility for change rests on those who have the most power. Those "cowards" may have no savings and could be fired at the drop of a hat. But if what you mean is that employees have a choice between passively accepting the status quo or trying to act collectively to improve their conditions, then yes, I agree.

CalRobert 7y ago

You lose the freedom to test your boss' limits the day your job is the source of your child's health insurance.