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If that's true, then I would argue that Uber and Lyft are contractors not workers: > First do you know how to do the work and use your own expertise to adapt t

by bko 7y ago

If that's true, then I would argue that Uber and Lyft are contractors not workers: > First do you know how to do the work and use your own expertise to adapt to circumstances or do you follow specific direction, training, and escalation procedures as dictated by management? ... If you know what to do and get only summary instructions then you are likely a contractor Surely Uber drivers already know how to drive. I'm not sure whether they're under obligation to follow GPS instructions. > Second, if you are hired by a cleaning company to extend their cleaning capacity using their methods and equipment then you are likely an employee, but if you are hired by a software company to sweep their floors whenever they get really dirty then you are probably a contractor. The Uber driver uses her own equipment although you could argue that they use Uber's methods. > if you do cleaning on your own for various clients and are hired to do cleaning then you are likely a contractor, but if you clean for one client by their instruction and with their oversight and support then you are probably an employee In my experience, almost every single Uber I've been in drives for Lyft as well.

rtpg 7y ago
I think the sticking point for Uber is > the person performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business It’s hard to say that offering rides is not Uber’s core business. There might be an argument that Uber is just a matching service, but that’s an argument to make, not self-evident. This sort of stuff is happening a lot in construction and cleaning services as well. If you run a business, the people that do the core part of your business should be considered employees, or else all of labor law becomes pointless.
yardie 7y ago
> I'm not sure whether they're under obligation to follow GPS instructions. UberX, no, the GPS is a suggested route. UberPool, yes, you have to follow the GPS as instructed. > The Uber driver uses her own equipment although you could argue that they use Uber's methods. This is where I tend to agree, with caveats. A rideshare driver is a contractor. But when it comes to compensation Uber and Lyft want to act as an employer. Currently, compensation has been trending down to the point it's becoming a unprofitable for the driver. A contractor would be able to negotiate a rate saying, "I'll drive for $0.55/mile." What we currently have is an email to all "contractors" stating the rate starting today is X/mile. That sounds more like an employer notice than a contract negotiation.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  Do contractors always really get to negotiate? All the contractor jobs I’ve seen have had take it or leave it fixed rates. I think negotiation is only possible at the high end, not for low end devs or cleaners or construction workers.
  - kevingadd 7y ago
    Every contract job I've ever done had a negotiable rate. Obviously in some cases they say 'I can't go higher than this', and then you say no. That's part of any negotiation: The implicit assumption that either party will just decide to end negotiations. That is not part of driving for Uber or Lyft because everyone gets offered the same rate, there's no negotiating up/down. It becomes 'take it or leave it', just like being an employee where once you're hired there is no negotiation involved. In a few cases my contract negotiations actually involved choosing between hourly or weekly, with differences in effective pay based on overhead for both me and the employer.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      I thought that both Uber and Lyft change their rates (surge pricing) when they want to attract more drivers? Then it seems more like a task auction related to supply and demand (drive now for X, drive later for X+).
- gok 7y ago
  > What we currently have is an email to all "contractors" stating the rate starting today is X/mile. By that logic all taxi drivers are employees of the cities of their medallion, because cities set the taxi driver rates.
  - malandrew 7y ago
    Actually it goes beyond just setting the rates. The state sets the rules. The state can "fire" drivers. Managing transportation is core to what government does. According to the ABC criteria, they should qualify as state employees with all the ensuring benefits and it would be hilarious if all taxi drivers in California sued the state to become state employees just like bus drivers and train operators.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

by bko 7y ago

rtpg 7y ago

I think the sticking point for Uber is > the person performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business It’s hard to say that offering rides is not Uber’s core business. There might be an argument that Uber is just a matching service, but that’s an argument to make, not self-evident. This sort of stuff is happening a lot in construction and cleaning services as well. If you run a business, the people that do the core part of your business should be considered employees, or else all of labor law becomes pointless.

yardie 7y ago

> I'm not sure whether they're under obligation to follow GPS instructions. UberX, no, the GPS is a suggested route. UberPool, yes, you have to follow the GPS as instructed. > The Uber driver uses her own equipment although you could argue that they use Uber's methods. This is where I tend to agree, with caveats. A rideshare driver is a contractor. But when it comes to compensation Uber and Lyft want to act as an employer. Currently, compensation has been trending down to the point it's becoming a unprofitable for the driver. A contractor would be able to negotiate a rate saying, "I'll drive for $0.55/mile." What we currently have is an email to all "contractors" stating the rate starting today is X/mile. That sounds more like an employer notice than a contract negotiation.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
Do contractors always really get to negotiate? All the contractor jobs I’ve seen have had take it or leave it fixed rates. I think negotiation is only possible at the high end, not for low end devs or cleaners or construction workers.
- kevingadd 7y ago
  Every contract job I've ever done had a negotiable rate. Obviously in some cases they say 'I can't go higher than this', and then you say no. That's part of any negotiation: The implicit assumption that either party will just decide to end negotiations. That is not part of driving for Uber or Lyft because everyone gets offered the same rate, there's no negotiating up/down. It becomes 'take it or leave it', just like being an employee where once you're hired there is no negotiation involved. In a few cases my contract negotiations actually involved choosing between hourly or weekly, with differences in effective pay based on overhead for both me and the employer.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    I thought that both Uber and Lyft change their rates (surge pricing) when they want to attract more drivers? Then it seems more like a task auction related to supply and demand (drive now for X, drive later for X+).
gok 7y ago
> What we currently have is an email to all "contractors" stating the rate starting today is X/mile. By that logic all taxi drivers are employees of the cities of their medallion, because cities set the taxi driver rates.
- malandrew 7y ago
  Actually it goes beyond just setting the rates. The state sets the rules. The state can "fire" drivers. Managing transportation is core to what government does. According to the ABC criteria, they should qualify as state employees with all the ensuring benefits and it would be hilarious if all taxi drivers in California sued the state to become state employees just like bus drivers and train operators.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]