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What the article doesn't mention: the "SUV" was a Porsche Macan, a compact SUV that's smaller than most german station wagons and about the size of an average f

What the article doesn't mention: the "SUV" was a Porsche Macan, a compact SUV that's smaller than most german station wagons and about the size of an average family van. They just say 'Porsche SUV', and most people think it's the more common Porsche Cayenne.

cookieswumchorr 7y ago
good point, that's exactly what I thought
dagw 7y ago
Indeed. I'm not quite sure what I think of the ban. But if there is a ban it should be based some combination of weight and engine size and not whether the car is considered an 'SUV' or not.
- mchanson 7y ago
  SUVs are higher up and as a pedestrian your far more likely to go under them then over them compared to sedans.
  - dagw 7y ago
    Fine, then make it a function of weight, horsepower, ground-clearance and dimensions.
    - choeger 7y ago
      Including deliveries, please. There are way too many people living in the city right now.
      - dagw 7y ago
        Including deliveries, please. Completely agree. The fact the you can drive a truck down a narrow pedestrian street to deliver a couple of 50x50x30 cm boxes is insane. But there does need to be an exception where people can apply for a permit on a case by case basis for deliveries that are necessary and cannot be brought in any other way. There are way too many people living in the city right now. Complete disagree as a matter of principle, and I don't see what one has to do with the other. Much of the traffic in city centers aren't caused by the people living in the city centers, but by people living outside the city wanting to get into the city. I fail to see how Forcing people to spread out into the suburbs will solve the problem. If the city infrastructure cannot handle the people living there, the focus should be on fixing the infrastructure.
  - dcolkitt 7y ago
    Agree with this. Another factor is that even if you don't go under, the grill is higher up. If the impact is centered on the legs or pelvis you might have serious damage, but will most likely live. If the impact's near the chest or head, there's a lot of delicate vital organs. The increase in trucks and SUVs is a major reason why pedestrian fatalities has increased so much over the past decade. (Though the auto industry has tried to shift the blame to cell phones.)
makomk 7y ago
Hmmm. For context, a Porsche Macan seems to weigh about the same as a Tesla Model 3. If "heavy Porsche SUV"s like this are too dangerous for city streets, I don't see how electric cars can belong there either - and Greenpeace's co-option of this event (mentioned in another article) to push for electrification seems exceedingly dubious.
- mchanson 7y ago
  You would most likely go over a Tesla rather than under. Model X would likely be similarly dangerous to pedestrians as the Porsche.
  - makomk 7y ago
    The Model X is considerably heavier, and in most configurations also has much more rapid acceleration. It'd likely be more dangerous to pedestrians. The reason I'm comparing to the Model 3 is because that's how far down you have to go in Tesla's range to find something as light as the Macan. (Oddly enough, the Kona Electric which is technically an SUV does seem to be a similar weight - probably because SUV is such a broad marketing term that it includes relatively small cars.)
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- mantas 7y ago
  On top of that, Tesla has ridiculous 0-100km/h. Especially compared to most boring slow heavy SUVs.
alkonaut 7y ago
The danger with a SUV to pedestrians isn’t size or weight but height. A car should send a pedestrian onto the hood, never under the car. But I thought EU rules were pretty strict when it comes to what happens to pedestrians on impact and the Macan isn’t exactly a monstertruck. Having low speed limits and protected sidewalks (trees, posts) seems like a much better idea.
- silon42 7y ago
  I seem to remember Top Gear discussing some EU rules making all newer cars higher at the front (making them ugly). Not sure about the rule, but perhaps it's also makes them less safe for pedestrians. Possibly the rule was for truck/trailer collision safety.
cmroanirgo 7y ago
I'm a little confused. The article talks repeatedly about large SUVs: > German politicians are demanding regulations to keep large SUVs (sport utility vehicles) out of inner cities > "We need an upper limit for large SUVs in city centres,” The article further elucidates: > Following the incident, several politicians and traffic experts called into question the rising popularity of the vehicles - characterized by their broad shape and several off-road features So it seems that SUVs are being particularly targeted, seemingly because of their features. So, looking up the measurements [0], it seems that the Porche Macan is just under 4.7m long and 2m wide. By my standards (Oz) that's a pretty large vehicle! [0] https://www.automobiledimension.com/models/porsche/macan-2019 https://www.automobiledimension.com/models/porsche/macan-201...
- tjansen 7y ago
  If the Macan is a too large, that would mean that practically all family cars are too large. The groups that have been quoted in the article were demanding a 'large SUV ban' even before this accident. Now they are using this accident to promote their agenda, conveniently leaving out that it wasn't a 'large SUV' that caused it. 'Porsche SUV' just sounds like a large SUV, because the Porsche Macan is relatively new and not as well-known as the Porsche Cayenne. The Cayenne is probably the most hated vehicle in Germany, at least in those circles.
  - Retric 7y ago
    It’s more about the height of the front grill than the total weight. Cars outweigh humans so much in a collision that increasing weight is not important. However, vehicle shape makes a real difference in low speed collisions.
- dagw 7y ago
  Porche Macan is just under 4.7m long and 2m wide. That's actually slightly smaller than than, for example, an Audi A4, which most people don't consider a particularly big car. By my standards (Oz) that's a pretty large vehicle! When I was in Oz it felt every other car on the road was a huge pickup. You guys sure seem to love your HiLuxes.
ptah 7y ago
it is about the same height as a cayenne
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
CydeWeys 7y ago
The real answer is that we need rigorous pedestrian crash safety testing. Right now we only evaluate automotive safety based on how well occupants inside the car are protected, which is absurd. We also need to grade vehicles on how well they protect pedestrians, cyclists, and occupants of other vehicles, and if they don't pass the tests they can't be sold.
- originldirgibl 7y ago
  https://www.euroncap.com/en/vehicle-safety/the-ratings-explained/vulnerable-road-user-vru-protection/ https://www.euroncap.com/en/vehicle-safety/the-ratings-expla... In Europe they have had pedestrian crash testing since 2010. The US does not currently have a standard that I'm aware of. Though because a good amount of cars are global designs, this has influenced the American market. Definitely agree that it should be a consideration everywhere.

cookieswumchorr 7y ago

good point, that's exactly what I thought

dagw 7y ago

Indeed. I'm not quite sure what I think of the ban. But if there is a ban it should be based some combination of weight and engine size and not whether the car is considered an 'SUV' or not.

mchanson 7y ago
SUVs are higher up and as a pedestrian your far more likely to go under them then over them compared to sedans.
- dagw 7y ago
  Fine, then make it a function of weight, horsepower, ground-clearance and dimensions.
  - choeger 7y ago
    Including deliveries, please. There are way too many people living in the city right now.
    - dagw 7y ago
      Including deliveries, please. Completely agree. The fact the you can drive a truck down a narrow pedestrian street to deliver a couple of 50x50x30 cm boxes is insane. But there does need to be an exception where people can apply for a permit on a case by case basis for deliveries that are necessary and cannot be brought in any other way. There are way too many people living in the city right now. Complete disagree as a matter of principle, and I don't see what one has to do with the other. Much of the traffic in city centers aren't caused by the people living in the city centers, but by people living outside the city wanting to get into the city. I fail to see how Forcing people to spread out into the suburbs will solve the problem. If the city infrastructure cannot handle the people living there, the focus should be on fixing the infrastructure.
- dcolkitt 7y ago
  Agree with this. Another factor is that even if you don't go under, the grill is higher up. If the impact is centered on the legs or pelvis you might have serious damage, but will most likely live. If the impact's near the chest or head, there's a lot of delicate vital organs. The increase in trucks and SUVs is a major reason why pedestrian fatalities has increased so much over the past decade. (Though the auto industry has tried to shift the blame to cell phones.)

makomk 7y ago

Hmmm. For context, a Porsche Macan seems to weigh about the same as a Tesla Model 3. If "heavy Porsche SUV"s like this are too dangerous for city streets, I don't see how electric cars can belong there either - and Greenpeace's co-option of this event (mentioned in another article) to push for electrification seems exceedingly dubious.

mchanson 7y ago
You would most likely go over a Tesla rather than under. Model X would likely be similarly dangerous to pedestrians as the Porsche.
- makomk 7y ago
  The Model X is considerably heavier, and in most configurations also has much more rapid acceleration. It'd likely be more dangerous to pedestrians. The reason I'm comparing to the Model 3 is because that's how far down you have to go in Tesla's range to find something as light as the Macan. (Oddly enough, the Kona Electric which is technically an SUV does seem to be a similar weight - probably because SUV is such a broad marketing term that it includes relatively small cars.)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
mantas 7y ago
On top of that, Tesla has ridiculous 0-100km/h. Especially compared to most boring slow heavy SUVs.

alkonaut 7y ago

The danger with a SUV to pedestrians isn’t size or weight but height. A car should send a pedestrian onto the hood, never under the car. But I thought EU rules were pretty strict when it comes to what happens to pedestrians on impact and the Macan isn’t exactly a monstertruck. Having low speed limits and protected sidewalks (trees, posts) seems like a much better idea.

silon42 7y ago
I seem to remember Top Gear discussing some EU rules making all newer cars higher at the front (making them ugly). Not sure about the rule, but perhaps it's also makes them less safe for pedestrians. Possibly the rule was for truck/trailer collision safety.

cmroanirgo 7y ago

I'm a little confused. The article talks repeatedly about large SUVs: > German politicians are demanding regulations to keep large SUVs (sport utility vehicles) out of inner cities > "We need an upper limit for large SUVs in city centres,” The article further elucidates: > Following the incident, several politicians and traffic experts called into question the rising popularity of the vehicles - characterized by their broad shape and several off-road features So it seems that SUVs are being particularly targeted, seemingly because of their features. So, looking up the measurements [0], it seems that the Porche Macan is just under 4.7m long and 2m wide. By my standards (Oz) that's a pretty large vehicle! [0] https://www.automobiledimension.com/models/porsche/macan-2019 https://www.automobiledimension.com/models/porsche/macan-201...

tjansen 7y ago
If the Macan is a too large, that would mean that practically all family cars are too large. The groups that have been quoted in the article were demanding a 'large SUV ban' even before this accident. Now they are using this accident to promote their agenda, conveniently leaving out that it wasn't a 'large SUV' that caused it. 'Porsche SUV' just sounds like a large SUV, because the Porsche Macan is relatively new and not as well-known as the Porsche Cayenne. The Cayenne is probably the most hated vehicle in Germany, at least in those circles.
- Retric 7y ago
  It’s more about the height of the front grill than the total weight. Cars outweigh humans so much in a collision that increasing weight is not important. However, vehicle shape makes a real difference in low speed collisions.
dagw 7y ago
Porche Macan is just under 4.7m long and 2m wide. That's actually slightly smaller than than, for example, an Audi A4, which most people don't consider a particularly big car. By my standards (Oz) that's a pretty large vehicle! When I was in Oz it felt every other car on the road was a huge pickup. You guys sure seem to love your HiLuxes.

ptah 7y ago

it is about the same height as a cayenne

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

CydeWeys 7y ago

The real answer is that we need rigorous pedestrian crash safety testing. Right now we only evaluate automotive safety based on how well occupants inside the car are protected, which is absurd. We also need to grade vehicles on how well they protect pedestrians, cyclists, and occupants of other vehicles, and if they don't pass the tests they can't be sold.

originldirgibl 7y ago
https://www.euroncap.com/en/vehicle-safety/the-ratings-explained/vulnerable-road-user-vru-protection/ https://www.euroncap.com/en/vehicle-safety/the-ratings-expla... In Europe they have had pedestrian crash testing since 2010. The US does not currently have a standard that I'm aware of. Though because a good amount of cars are global designs, this has influenced the American market. Definitely agree that it should be a consideration everywhere.