5 ms·

Yup. One of the great mysteries of the world is how Americans think they are so straightforward and direct and honest... and then they ask a German if their but

Yup. One of the great mysteries of the world is how Americans think they are so straightforward and direct and honest... and then they ask a German if their butt looks big in these pants, and burst into tears on hearing the answer. On a mildly more serious note, I remember well my first ever serious business meeting in the US, where we pitched a potential joint venture to another company. 30 minutes of mutual praise about the awesome potential of the idea and positive affirmations of how we're totally going to do this ensued... and immediately after we left, my (American) business partner dropped the smile, said "welp, that went badly" and stated that there was no way in hell they'd proceed. Which proved to be the case.

sl1ck731 7y ago
I've never heard of Americans thinking/saying they were direct. In my case I see our culture as the opposite, as this page seems to demonstrate. Corporate double-speak is a well-known thing here (I presume its similar in many places, but I don't know), and I'm sure most people like me were taught "if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all". A common trope in child programs when I grew up was that being honest but hurtful was "incorrect". Perhaps subtle cues or assumptions create such imagery of directness for those on the outside? Not that I take issue with your characterization, I just wonder how it came to be.
- Gene_Parmesan 7y ago
  Throughout my (American) childhood, I was always told that harmful lies were bad, but various purported sources of moral lessons (books, shows, etc.) had different ideas about "white lies." Some were all for them ("It's a lie, but we say it because we love them!"); others took the line "It's better to be honest even if it's hard." Of course, there was a very common character trope with some kid who was told "Honesty is always the best policy," and who then proceeded to go around telling people (e.g.) that yes, their butts did in fact look too big. inevitably annoying all the adults they were honest with. To any foreigners wondering, no, none of us enjoy the fake corporate double-speak either. Things like asking, "How are you?" and never wanting an actual answer are of course too engrained in our culture for most of us to even notice. But the extreme levels this gets taken to in the corporate setting is almost offensive. In the worst offenders, any exchange even close to approaching confrontational is liable to get you labeled as "difficult to work with." But this has almost less to do with our general culture, and more to do with corporations' need for bland, compliant, agreeable clone-employees.
  - riffraff 7y ago
    > had different ideas about "white lies." Maybe, without going all sapir-whorf, the common use of an idiomatic "white lies" expression might mean something, like, say, the existence of "jeitinho" in brazilian portuguese.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >I've never heard of Americans thinking/saying they were direct. They wont say it for themselves, but it's something very common to hear Americans and foreigners say/write as a fact for Americans in general (ie. the culture). Some areas even compete/praise themselves on how more direct they are (New Yorkers come to mind). Of course, compared to a culture with a lot of innuendo and second guessing required, like e.g. the Japanese, or more subtle and ironic, like the English, that would be very true, but not in general.
  - asveikau 7y ago
    > Some areas even compete/praise themselves on how more direct they are (New Yorkers come to mind). In the US I frequently cite that I am an east coaster to explain why I don't play the politeness game as in this phrasebook, and people seem to accept that explanation. (Or perhaps they say they accept it but don't give a shit, as some of the phrasebook might suggest.)
    - scruple 7y ago
      Likewise, I often explain to people that I'm from the midwest. Sometimes it helps cut through the bullshit, sometimes it doesn't.
- ivanhoe 7y ago
  Well, it all depends who you compare to. I too heard many times of Americans being direct, but usually it's said in comparison to British people, and in that case it's fairly true I guess. On the other hand, compared to say Mediterranean or Balkans, no, you're not direct at all :)
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    I don't think more direct at all. Perhaps more direct than southerners, particularly London, but hardly compared to northerners or Scots. More determined to bring overstatement and excess superlatives certainly, while British are the inverse and overdo the understatement. "This is good" En-GB: "Not bad, I 'spose", "it'll do" En-US: "Awesome man, incredible", "I'm excited you asked, amazing" I will retire never having used "exciting" in a work context. :) With apologies to both sides of the Atlantic.
coldtea 7y ago
>One of the great mysteries of the world is how Americans think they are so straightforward and direct and honest... and then they ask a German if their butt looks big in these pants, and burst into tears on hearing the answer. Or how they ask a friend/relative/acquaintance "How have you been" and expect just a fake generic "fine" or similar, not the actual story of how you were, as told in several (at least European I know of) countries...
- keiferski 7y ago
  Non-Americans always harp on this yet don't understand that "How are you?" is just functioning as a generic "Hello" and not as a literal question. This happens in every language with various phrases. For example, the phrase for "Hello" in most European languages directly translates to "Good Day." It is not as if people are saying "Good Day" in any literal sense of the words; the meaning implied is "Hello."
  - aidos 7y ago
    These things are complicated though. I’m a kiwi and on moving to the UK it took ages to figure out that “alright?” meant “hello”, not “what’s wrong?”
    - circlefavshape 7y ago
      Where I live (a corner of Ireland) people say "Well?" for hello. I think it's short for "Are you well?"
  - atoav 7y ago
    With the difference that “Good Day” is something you wish uppon others while “How are you?” is a question that also exists outside of the smalltalk context. You can ask “How are you?” with genuine interest and get a genuine answer in the right context.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Non-Americans always harp on this yet don't understand that "How are you?" is just functioning as a generic "Hello" and not as a literal question. This happens in every language with various phrases. We very much understand that. Our problem/concern/issue is that you don't seem to expect/appreciate the outpour of how one has been in the first place, whereas elsewhere it's a natural part of meeting the other person... That is, it's not like: "'how are you?' just means hello, but we have another phrase to say if you want the other person to really tell you how they've been/feel when you meet them". It's more like: "Actually telling the other person how you've been/feel is discouraged, nobody cares that much for you, period".
keiferski 7y ago
This is something of a misunderstanding of American culture. It's far more complex than can be summarized in a HN comment, but it's more accurate to say that American culture prides itself on accessibility, egalitarianism, and a "lack of barriers" more than directness, defined as pure unfiltered honesty, per se. A good example to illustrate this phenomenon: in most American cities, it is considered fairly normal, even expected, to talk to strangers on the bus, in the street, in line at the grocery store. There is no mental "barrier" to overcome in the public sphere. However, one is typically expected to be polite and not overly direct while interacting with strangers. The same activity, contrarily, is borderline verboten in German culture. The typical German will rarely engage in spontaneous conversation with a stranger, even if he/she would be extremely direct (in American terms) if such a conversation were to occur.
- yati 7y ago
  This resonates with my recent experience. I'm Indian, but I live in Europe, and during a recent trip to the US, I was amazed by how easy going the people were. I was able to have nice conversations with random locals. From a nice uncle spontaneously telling us about the history of Santa Cruz to a stranger helping us park the car properly in SF, to jolly waiters in restaurants, it all felt very human. I find it quite hard to make small talk in European cities. I used to think it's the language barrier, but I realize now that it might be more than that.
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    It is more than that. To talk to a stranger in Europe, you need a "reason" (or an excuse), otherwise it's weird.
  - blaser-waffle 7y ago
    Plenty of US cities aren't like that. You're going to get a wayyy different response talking to random people on the NYC public transit than in SF. Seattle has the infamous "Freeze", and DC has that government contractor omerta thing going on. Santa Cruz is a whole 'nother creature too.
sdrothrock 7y ago
> One of the great mysteries of the world is how Americans think they are so straightforward and direct and honest... and then they ask a German if their butt looks big in these pants, and burst into tears on hearing the answer. The Culture Map by Erin Meyer goes into this a bit; one of the key traits she uses to assess cross-cultural communication is how directly cultures give/take negative feedback. There are two things to reply to here from that book: 1. The stereotype for a lot of the world is that Americans are direct, much like you said here -- but this isn't the case for ALL types of communication. 2. There's a scale specifically for negative feedback from "direct" to "indirect" for various cultures and the US is shown in the middle of that scale. The UK is also listed around the middle, but more toward the "indirect" side than the US. For more extreme examples, Russia, Germany, and France are listed as tending toward more direct negative feedback, whereas Japan and Indonesia are listed as tending toward more indirect negative feedback. It's a fascinating book that really opened my eyes about ways to perceive cultures and communication, so if this is anything you're at all interested in, I'd really recommend it. > On a mildly more serious note, I remember well my first ever serious business meeting in the US, where we pitched a potential joint venture to another company. 30 minutes of mutual praise about the awesome potential of the idea and positive affirmations of how we're totally going to do this ensued... and immediately after we left, my (American) business partner dropped the smile, said "welp, that went badly" and stated that there was no way in hell they'd proceed. This kind of situation is also discussed in the book! ;) Edit: I bring this book up relatively frequently, but I'm not associated with the publisher or author at all. The book was an absolute revelation for me in that it gave me a way to conceptualize cultural differences rather than the traditional/stereotypical "good/bad" scale, so I like to pay it forward and recommend it to people who seem like they might be interested in it.
- mjlee 7y ago
  I'll second the recommendation for The Culture Map, I found it very useful.
roenxi 7y ago
And yet the current American president is renowned the world over for using unusually direct and simple language. 'Americans are straightfoward' to me has always meant that when a large group of Americans decide what to do they'll fight it out in public with big, well defined interest groups coalescing around well broadcast opinions. Very transparent. No real nuance at the strategic level; usually simple opinions like 'more money to X' or 'we want a Y' (although often quite a sophisticated execution). Generally clear why people believe what they do. Compare that to the traditional British approach where there is a lot more emphasis on silly pageantry and maintaining dignity in public, like the basic fundamental absurdity of pretending a monarch is somehow more worthy than any other. Americans literally wouldn't stand for pretending that unless they were making money off it somehow. For all the complicated details of politeness in the small, Americans in large groups are generally crystal clear about what they do and do not like.
- philwelch 7y ago
  I have to laugh at the notion that British politics is "dignified". The House of Commons is a melee of shouting and heckling punctuated by an increasingly haggard-looking man shouting "ORDAAAA" whenever it gets too rowdy, which seems to be every 2 minutes or so.
  - roenxi 7y ago
    Did you see Bercow has resigned? I'll miss his distinctive roar.
    - philwelch 7y ago
      I have, yeah. I can't blame him. Even compared to a few months ago he looks very tired, and doesn't seem to have the same enthusiasm he once did. I don't know if that's related to the controversies about some of his decisions, but it's certainly a job that one needs a lot of energy for.
philwelch 7y ago
Americans who think of themselves as straightforward and direct and honest are usually thinking of themselves in comparison to other Anglophone cultures. Since very few of us speak German or go to Germany, we wouldn't know how direct they are anyway.
amelius 7y ago
> and then they ask a German if their butt looks big in these pants, and burst into tears on hearing the answer. Is there even a correct answer to this kind of question?
- eru 7y ago
  That's like asking the self-driving car engineer about the answer to trolley problems. The correct strategy is not to get into those situations in the first place.

sl1ck731 7y ago

I've never heard of Americans thinking/saying they were direct. In my case I see our culture as the opposite, as this page seems to demonstrate. Corporate double-speak is a well-known thing here (I presume its similar in many places, but I don't know), and I'm sure most people like me were taught "if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all". A common trope in child programs when I grew up was that being honest but hurtful was "incorrect". Perhaps subtle cues or assumptions create such imagery of directness for those on the outside? Not that I take issue with your characterization, I just wonder how it came to be.

Gene_Parmesan 7y ago
Throughout my (American) childhood, I was always told that harmful lies were bad, but various purported sources of moral lessons (books, shows, etc.) had different ideas about "white lies." Some were all for them ("It's a lie, but we say it because we love them!"); others took the line "It's better to be honest even if it's hard." Of course, there was a very common character trope with some kid who was told "Honesty is always the best policy," and who then proceeded to go around telling people (e.g.) that yes, their butts did in fact look too big. inevitably annoying all the adults they were honest with. To any foreigners wondering, no, none of us enjoy the fake corporate double-speak either. Things like asking, "How are you?" and never wanting an actual answer are of course too engrained in our culture for most of us to even notice. But the extreme levels this gets taken to in the corporate setting is almost offensive. In the worst offenders, any exchange even close to approaching confrontational is liable to get you labeled as "difficult to work with." But this has almost less to do with our general culture, and more to do with corporations' need for bland, compliant, agreeable clone-employees.
- riffraff 7y ago
  > had different ideas about "white lies." Maybe, without going all sapir-whorf, the common use of an idiomatic "white lies" expression might mean something, like, say, the existence of "jeitinho" in brazilian portuguese.
coldtea 7y ago
>I've never heard of Americans thinking/saying they were direct. They wont say it for themselves, but it's something very common to hear Americans and foreigners say/write as a fact for Americans in general (ie. the culture). Some areas even compete/praise themselves on how more direct they are (New Yorkers come to mind). Of course, compared to a culture with a lot of innuendo and second guessing required, like e.g. the Japanese, or more subtle and ironic, like the English, that would be very true, but not in general.
- asveikau 7y ago
  > Some areas even compete/praise themselves on how more direct they are (New Yorkers come to mind). In the US I frequently cite that I am an east coaster to explain why I don't play the politeness game as in this phrasebook, and people seem to accept that explanation. (Or perhaps they say they accept it but don't give a shit, as some of the phrasebook might suggest.)
  - scruple 7y ago
    Likewise, I often explain to people that I'm from the midwest. Sometimes it helps cut through the bullshit, sometimes it doesn't.
ivanhoe 7y ago
Well, it all depends who you compare to. I too heard many times of Americans being direct, but usually it's said in comparison to British people, and in that case it's fairly true I guess. On the other hand, compared to say Mediterranean or Balkans, no, you're not direct at all :)
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  I don't think more direct at all. Perhaps more direct than southerners, particularly London, but hardly compared to northerners or Scots. More determined to bring overstatement and excess superlatives certainly, while British are the inverse and overdo the understatement. "This is good" En-GB: "Not bad, I 'spose", "it'll do" En-US: "Awesome man, incredible", "I'm excited you asked, amazing" I will retire never having used "exciting" in a work context. :) With apologies to both sides of the Atlantic.

coldtea 7y ago

>One of the great mysteries of the world is how Americans think they are so straightforward and direct and honest... and then they ask a German if their butt looks big in these pants, and burst into tears on hearing the answer. Or how they ask a friend/relative/acquaintance "How have you been" and expect just a fake generic "fine" or similar, not the actual story of how you were, as told in several (at least European I know of) countries...

keiferski 7y ago
Non-Americans always harp on this yet don't understand that "How are you?" is just functioning as a generic "Hello" and not as a literal question. This happens in every language with various phrases. For example, the phrase for "Hello" in most European languages directly translates to "Good Day." It is not as if people are saying "Good Day" in any literal sense of the words; the meaning implied is "Hello."
- aidos 7y ago
  These things are complicated though. I’m a kiwi and on moving to the UK it took ages to figure out that “alright?” meant “hello”, not “what’s wrong?”
  - circlefavshape 7y ago
    Where I live (a corner of Ireland) people say "Well?" for hello. I think it's short for "Are you well?"
- atoav 7y ago
  With the difference that “Good Day” is something you wish uppon others while “How are you?” is a question that also exists outside of the smalltalk context. You can ask “How are you?” with genuine interest and get a genuine answer in the right context.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Non-Americans always harp on this yet don't understand that "How are you?" is just functioning as a generic "Hello" and not as a literal question. This happens in every language with various phrases. We very much understand that. Our problem/concern/issue is that you don't seem to expect/appreciate the outpour of how one has been in the first place, whereas elsewhere it's a natural part of meeting the other person... That is, it's not like: "'how are you?' just means hello, but we have another phrase to say if you want the other person to really tell you how they've been/feel when you meet them". It's more like: "Actually telling the other person how you've been/feel is discouraged, nobody cares that much for you, period".

keiferski 7y ago

This is something of a misunderstanding of American culture. It's far more complex than can be summarized in a HN comment, but it's more accurate to say that American culture prides itself on accessibility, egalitarianism, and a "lack of barriers" more than directness, defined as pure unfiltered honesty, per se. A good example to illustrate this phenomenon: in most American cities, it is considered fairly normal, even expected, to talk to strangers on the bus, in the street, in line at the grocery store. There is no mental "barrier" to overcome in the public sphere. However, one is typically expected to be polite and not overly direct while interacting with strangers. The same activity, contrarily, is borderline verboten in German culture. The typical German will rarely engage in spontaneous conversation with a stranger, even if he/she would be extremely direct (in American terms) if such a conversation were to occur.

yati 7y ago
This resonates with my recent experience. I'm Indian, but I live in Europe, and during a recent trip to the US, I was amazed by how easy going the people were. I was able to have nice conversations with random locals. From a nice uncle spontaneously telling us about the history of Santa Cruz to a stranger helping us park the car properly in SF, to jolly waiters in restaurants, it all felt very human. I find it quite hard to make small talk in European cities. I used to think it's the language barrier, but I realize now that it might be more than that.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  It is more than that. To talk to a stranger in Europe, you need a "reason" (or an excuse), otherwise it's weird.
- blaser-waffle 7y ago
  Plenty of US cities aren't like that. You're going to get a wayyy different response talking to random people on the NYC public transit than in SF. Seattle has the infamous "Freeze", and DC has that government contractor omerta thing going on. Santa Cruz is a whole 'nother creature too.

sdrothrock 7y ago

> One of the great mysteries of the world is how Americans think they are so straightforward and direct and honest... and then they ask a German if their butt looks big in these pants, and burst into tears on hearing the answer. The Culture Map by Erin Meyer goes into this a bit; one of the key traits she uses to assess cross-cultural communication is how directly cultures give/take negative feedback. There are two things to reply to here from that book: 1. The stereotype for a lot of the world is that Americans are direct, much like you said here -- but this isn't the case for ALL types of communication. 2. There's a scale specifically for negative feedback from "direct" to "indirect" for various cultures and the US is shown in the middle of that scale. The UK is also listed around the middle, but more toward the "indirect" side than the US. For more extreme examples, Russia, Germany, and France are listed as tending toward more direct negative feedback, whereas Japan and Indonesia are listed as tending toward more indirect negative feedback. It's a fascinating book that really opened my eyes about ways to perceive cultures and communication, so if this is anything you're at all interested in, I'd really recommend it. > On a mildly more serious note, I remember well my first ever serious business meeting in the US, where we pitched a potential joint venture to another company. 30 minutes of mutual praise about the awesome potential of the idea and positive affirmations of how we're totally going to do this ensued... and immediately after we left, my (American) business partner dropped the smile, said "welp, that went badly" and stated that there was no way in hell they'd proceed. This kind of situation is also discussed in the book! ;) Edit: I bring this book up relatively frequently, but I'm not associated with the publisher or author at all. The book was an absolute revelation for me in that it gave me a way to conceptualize cultural differences rather than the traditional/stereotypical "good/bad" scale, so I like to pay it forward and recommend it to people who seem like they might be interested in it.

mjlee 7y ago
I'll second the recommendation for The Culture Map, I found it very useful.

roenxi 7y ago

And yet the current American president is renowned the world over for using unusually direct and simple language. 'Americans are straightfoward' to me has always meant that when a large group of Americans decide what to do they'll fight it out in public with big, well defined interest groups coalescing around well broadcast opinions. Very transparent. No real nuance at the strategic level; usually simple opinions like 'more money to X' or 'we want a Y' (although often quite a sophisticated execution). Generally clear why people believe what they do. Compare that to the traditional British approach where there is a lot more emphasis on silly pageantry and maintaining dignity in public, like the basic fundamental absurdity of pretending a monarch is somehow more worthy than any other. Americans literally wouldn't stand for pretending that unless they were making money off it somehow. For all the complicated details of politeness in the small, Americans in large groups are generally crystal clear about what they do and do not like.

philwelch 7y ago
I have to laugh at the notion that British politics is "dignified". The House of Commons is a melee of shouting and heckling punctuated by an increasingly haggard-looking man shouting "ORDAAAA" whenever it gets too rowdy, which seems to be every 2 minutes or so.
- roenxi 7y ago
  Did you see Bercow has resigned? I'll miss his distinctive roar.
  - philwelch 7y ago
    I have, yeah. I can't blame him. Even compared to a few months ago he looks very tired, and doesn't seem to have the same enthusiasm he once did. I don't know if that's related to the controversies about some of his decisions, but it's certainly a job that one needs a lot of energy for.

philwelch 7y ago

Americans who think of themselves as straightforward and direct and honest are usually thinking of themselves in comparison to other Anglophone cultures. Since very few of us speak German or go to Germany, we wouldn't know how direct they are anyway.

amelius 7y ago

> and then they ask a German if their butt looks big in these pants, and burst into tears on hearing the answer. Is there even a correct answer to this kind of question?

eru 7y ago
That's like asking the self-driving car engineer about the answer to trolley problems. The correct strategy is not to get into those situations in the first place.