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Jack Ma retires as Alibaba’s chairman

182 points by doppp 7y ago

rvz 7y ago
End of an era.
60 7y ago
Oh wow
mogadsheu 7y ago
He was almost certainly ousted. Look for Ant Financial to grow in even closer connection with CCP interests. My guess is that Alipay will be used as a means to strengthen international dependence on the RMB. The trail of acquisitions suggests such. Very exciting and uncertain times we live in! Edit: this isn’t an anti-China rant at all, just musings based on observations and incomplete data.
- pgodzin 7y ago
  He was ousted a year ago and was allowed a year-long transition as the ousted head of Alibaba? > The transition was announced a year ago.
  - Rapzid 7y ago
    To be fair, if that were the case what's the alternative? Re-education camp?
  - mogadsheu 7y ago
    I think it's entirely possible that he's just selling high after a few decades of hard work. Ousting to me doesn't mean getting thrown out of the building with your things in a box, it can happen peacefully and gradually. Jack almost certainly has ties to the CCP and a good dialogue with them--it's a necessity to grow a business in that country. My guess is that there was a good amount of pressure gracefully imposed by an outside group to step down. But maybe he just wants to start a university/cure malaria and move on before China exports slow down.
- chirau 7y ago
  Not at all, you should read up on the progression of this decision. It's not out of the blue, he announced it more than a year ago.
- debaserab2 7y ago
  For the uninitiated, what does all that mean exactly? My vague understanding is that the Chinese government now have more oversight of one of China's largest (the largest?) companies. Did they not before, or is this a significant indicator of something that has changed?
  - killjoywashere 7y ago
    Read up on the Organization Department of the CCCP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_Department_of_the_Communist_Party_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_Department_of_the...
- ryacko 7y ago
  Strengthen international dependence on the RMB? They might beat the Swiss franc. The RMB is the 8th most traded currency, and counts for 4% of global volume. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Most_traded_currencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Most_traded_currencie... Once oil is sold in RMB, it would be vastly different.
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  Why would he be ousted? It's always entertaining to read the FUD stories about China.
  - dragonelite 7y ago
    Kinda this Ma has been talking for years that wanted to return as a teacher. Is it really a disaster that company C level are political or part of a party.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - simongray 7y ago
    > Why would he be ousted? > It's always entertaining to read the FUD stories about China. Can't tell if you're deliberately being disingenuous or if you just don't know, but here are some statistics straight from the propaganda arm of the Chinese Communist Party: > "Since 2003, 72 billionaires in the Chinese mainland have died an unnatural death (...) Among the 72 billionaires, 15 were murdered, 17 committed suicide, seven died from accidents, 14 were executed according to the law and 19 died from diseases." - http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2011-07/22/content_12959437.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2011-07/22/content_129594... Everyone who achieves a certain level of influence at some point submits to the CCP in China. It doesn't matter if it's bloggers, vloggers, actors, billionaries, or some other type of influencer. If you don't actively cheerlead and support the corruption of the current CCP faction in power, you lose your privileges, your audience, and - if you're powerful enough - your life.
    - mytailorisrich 7y ago
      > Can't tell if you're deliberately being disingenuous or if you just don't know, Neither. Your reply is quite insidious and illustrates my comment perfectly.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
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- 26165 7y ago
  I agree to that, absolutely. Check the video link I have posted. :)The guy talking there also does not make anti-China rant but speaks anti-CPC.
senectus1 7y ago
anyone ever see when he shared the stage with Elon Musk? Watching Elon control himself was amazing. the guy was trying so hard to not laugh or verbally slap the guy in public. *edit for the lazy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSKYWu-S2G0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSKYWu-S2G0
- hipoglucido 7y ago
  For those who didn't watch it here are the highlights of that debate https://youtu.be/aHGd6LqAVzw https://youtu.be/aHGd6LqAVzw
  - natch 7y ago
    Worth watching for Elon's latest refinements on some of his AI talking points. Just don't expect an actual debate. Much more freeform. The Jack Ma portion of it was embarrassing. I asked my (recently arrived mainland Chinese) Uber driver in SF the other day what Chinese people thought of Jack Ma, and she said they adore/worship him... which is a bit worrying. Actually it's worth watching for that too, to see just what level of thinking gets adored in China, it's eye opening. Especially keeping in mind that that country holds the reins on some of the most serious efforts at AI development around. Definitely can't generalize about the quality of thinking of the more highly educated class from this situation, but it does shed light on the quality of thinking of the masses.
    - Leary 7y ago
      Funny, I asked my Uber driver what he thought of Travis Kalanick. Also worshiped him.
      - natch 7y ago
        Hah!
    - clydethefrog 7y ago
      I could say the same about the adoration Musk gets from the Western masses. A man who is born with a silver spoon in one's mouth has carefully crafted this image of him being a life-saving genius. Claims to be working 24/7 on his projects while reality shows he is tweeting most of the time, with as highlight calling someone a pedophile. Vanity projects like a flamethrower and reinventing a metro system but worse. Exploiting his workers. But the masses think he is personally going to live on Mars to save humanity.
pgodzin 7y ago
People seem to be missing > The transition was announced a year ago.
- curiousgal 7y ago
  They are not missing it, they are just fueled by heir hate towards China. It amazes me how negative HN comments are whenever anything that has to do with China is brought up.
  - throwaway8879 7y ago
    Why does it amaze you? We ought to be overly negative towards rising ambitious hegemonies with bad track records, even if the negativity is irrationally aggressive.
    - pgodzin 7y ago
      If they have such bad track records then those should be enough to be negative towards without having to create irrational conspiracy theories about something that had been announced a year ago.
      - devoply 7y ago
        How does it having been announced a year ago make it utterly legitimate? Jack Ma outright owned the company which was not funded by government money. And all the sudden he announces the company is going to be handed over to the government and I am going to become a teacher. Seems a bit outlandish. I don't know of many CEOs that randomly sail off into the sunset. Do you?
        pgodzin 7y ago
        You had a post on this thread that started with > Tinfoil hat on... Maybe the CCP fucked him up somehow. Yes, a billionaire CEO retiring and staying on the board of the company he started is much less outlandish than your "tinfoil hat" theory.
sremani 7y ago
Wow! The CPC is making moves faster than I thought! Note to tech people .. this is not about tech at all. Its a total and complete political take-over. I mean get the hell out of $BABA. edit: (an interesting conversation that predicted this and some more) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cwXifDaCjE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cwXifDaCjE
- deleted 7y ago
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- ETHisso2017 7y ago
  Since when did we endorse conspiracy theories on HN?
  - sremani 7y ago
    That is a dissident talking to a successful hedgefund manager. Kyle Bass is hawkish on China particularly CPC but calling him or real vision a conspiracy theory outlet reflects a willful blindness.
    - adventured 7y ago
      Guo Wengui is of course not just a dissident, he's a billionaire (or former billionaire; hard to tell post fleeing China) that the Chinese Government has wanted to force to be returned to the mainland for likely execution or long-term imprisonment (having been accused of just about every crime they could slap him with). Guo Wengui believes the Chinese Government wants to murder him. It's obvious he must be saying something interesting to make China so extremely angry.
    - kristianov 7y ago
      Successful? I wouldn't go so far as to call him that. I used to watch Kyle Bass youtube interviews bc his arguments are interesting. But when I researched his track record, I stopped. It appears, after his win in the 2007/8 CDS crisis, he has been wrong non-stop: his EU short in 2009 went south, his bet on Japan debt bubble burst didn't materialize (losing 61% investor money in the process), and his famous nickel bet became an Internet meme... He's now betting on HK and China's impending collapse. It could happen, but I wouldn't trust him too much.
noname120 7y ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17938262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17938262
- jeffchien 7y ago
  I found it a little unfortunate that one of the threads was so dismissive of NYT [1] due to a SCMP article [2]. I checked archive.org's original snapshot of NYT article [3] and Newsdiff [4] to try to make sure that NYT didn't edit the original article in response, and sure enough they were all worded "planned to step down" and "Mr. Ma will remain on Alibaba's board of directors and continue to mentor the company's management", which is accurate. I suppose the lesson I'm taking away is to not buy into a counter-reaction immediately. It's obvious in hindsight: SCMP is owned by Alibaba after all. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17940919 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17940919 [2] https://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/2163376/jack-ma-remain-alibabas-chairman-succession-plan-younger-talent https://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/2163376/jack... [3] https://web.archive.org/web/20180907230109/https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/technology/alibaba-jack-ma-retiring.html https://web.archive.org/web/20180907230109/https://www.nytim... (may need to turn off JS) [4] http://newsdiffs.org/article-history/https%3A/www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/technology/alibaba-jack-ma-retiring.html http://newsdiffs.org/article-history/https%3A/www.nytimes.co...
  - noname120 7y ago
    Thank you for your documented insight. In spite of our best intentions, we—as a community—often do judgement mistakes. One thing that I've been meaning to do is to write postmortems about our reaction to some events, and their eventual outcome. This would help us improve the way that we digest information. One particularly interesting subject to cover would be Bloomberg's alleged “Big Hack”[1]. Between the initial publication and the final denial by all the involved companies, a lot of different narratives have emerged and gained traction here—and most of them turned out to be incorrect. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18138328 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18138328
  - yorwba 7y ago
chirau 7y ago
HN hates China. You can tell from the dialogue and tone whenever it is brought up. Objectivity is out of the window, all of a sudden. When it comes to America and the beloved companies, there is always justification. The other day it was privacy and ability to unsubscribe. HN was justifiably ranked really really terrible. Of course everyone came to its defense. Then of course the tyranny of the majority on this beloved forum, though not any participant is willing to accept it. HN needs Dave Chappelle.
- swang 7y ago
  You aren't saying much with your message other than you think HN, a group containing people with a wide swath of opinions on things, "hates China" and your reasoning is a bit incoherent. I can't even tell what that last line is suppose to mean. HN needs a millionaire to come in and... tell jokes?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- aaomidi 7y ago
  No shit HN hates China. How can you actually LIKE China? China is literally one of the worst countries in the world at this current moment. Their ethnic cleansing, treatment of minorities, extreme censorship and state control does not make them a likable country.
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    I like China. Of course I hate the government. The country is super exciting though and it's very sad that it's ruled by such dystopian regime.
- yorwba 7y ago
  Lots of people on HN probably hate China and post accordingly, but that doesn't mean everyone does. Hateful posts tend to get downvoted or flagged. If you want to know what the majority thinks, you need to find a top post that wasn't flagged and didn't attract so many comments it was downranked by the flamewar detector, because otherwise the majority won't even see it. Then wait a day or two for the ranking to stop changing and check the top comment. I think you'll find it much more reasonable than whatever appears at the bottom with "showdead" turned on.
lwansbrough 7y ago
The quality of conversation in this thread is really bad. Feels like reddit in here.
- szggzs27 7y ago
  reddit has become toxic pool of garbage. the anti china sentiment that has been driven up by US media and Hong Kong protests alike is irrational and is bordering xenophobia and bigotry. just a small glance at r/HongKong and you can see images posted out of context with slogans against the police and government, most of which are targeted towards kids in school, sometimes by the same kids.
  - nailer 7y ago
    The HK police, at the behest of a leader chosen by the CCP, are attacking journalists, beating and killing protesters and violating the Sino British joint declaration that determines that HK has their own civil and criminal law. Why would it be bigotry, rather than simple judgement of the CCP for the CCP's actions?
    - szggzs27 7y ago
      and are you there to witness both sides of the story? i will have a wild guess that no.
      - nailer 7y ago
        I'm not sure what "both sides" of pressing someone's hand into their arm until their wrist snaps is. Nor am I sure what "both sides" of someone being hit with truncheons until they convulse and stop moving is. Are you saying the footage is faked or something else?
        szggzs27 7y ago
        not at all, but you need to consider the context of what happened. the protesters were throwing molotvs. there are footage of protesters beating the police with equal brutality, but i guess you won't find it on reddit. i'm ending my discussion here with you, you can choose to consume and believe whatever media you like. my 2 cent was that reddit is a cesspool of propaganda now.
Nye8 7y ago
看到关于ccp的评论我就想笑
sgt101 7y ago
996 for life for some, not for the winners though.
Traster 7y ago
I think it will be really interesting to see if Alibaba significantly changes after Ma. In silicon valley you absolutely have the cult of the founder - Apple would be nothing without Steve Jobs, Facebook would be nothing without Zuck, everything Bezos touches turns to gold. People around here seem to have a very low impression of Ma (apparently based on one youtube video), but I can imagine running a huge e-commerce empire in China is non-trivial. I could imagine the personal management of relations with the senior Chinese politicians could be make or break for a Chinese company in a way that US companies simply don't face.
- saargrin 7y ago
  and by non trivial you mean having and maintaining connections to people in power
- rewgs 7y ago
  To be fair, that one YouTube video (I’m assuming you’re talking about the one with Musk) demonstrated an astronomical and wide-reaching lack of critical thinking skills. Saying such ridiculous things with such confidence like he did in that video would ruin my opinion of anyone.
  - carlmr 7y ago
    How do you compare this to the stream of ridiculous tweets coming from Musk? It seems Musk gets an almost infinite benefit of the doubt while his interview partner is judged on this one performance. Also we have the issue of language barrier. Jack Ma was doing the interview in English, which for him is probably extremely difficult. I learned Chinese for 2-3 years and can barely order food. If you combine this language barrier with e.g. the cultural desire to save face, you may have someone saying something to say something, without being able to express themselves properly. I'd say there are a lot of factors at play here and I would withhold judgment for now.
    - hboon 7y ago
      Re English. According to Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma: > "Ma attended Hangzhou Teacher's Institute (currently known as Hangzhou Normal University) and graduated in 1988 with a B.A. in English.[15][16] While at school, Ma was head of the student council.[17] After graduation, he became a lecturer in English and International Trade at Hangzhou Dianzi University."
26165 7y ago
I would point your attention on this video. It contains the exiled Chinese Billionaire's Accusations of China and also the speculations on what has happened to Jack Ma and what may happen in the future. The video is quite long. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cwXifDaCjE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cwXifDaCjE
- christophilus 7y ago
  Not sure why you’ve been downvoted. This is exactly what I thought of when I saw the headline.
aegis123 7y ago
Maybe Mark Zuckerberg should take a hint like this
- akskos 7y ago
  Let's arrange a debate for zuck and musk!
xbiitx 7y ago
after elon interview :)
HNLurker2 7y ago
No more AI (Alibaba intelligence)
mark_l_watson 7y ago
As others have mentioned here, the recent “debate” between Jack Ma and Elon Musk was not excellent, but I put that more on Elon Musk. I have listened to other Jack Ma interviews, panel discussions, etc. and I really like his humanistic view of what life could be. People first, technology second. I like Elon Musk’s enthusiasm for difficult problems, but I didn’t like his (what I perceived) lack of respect for Ma.
- branchless 7y ago
  > I really like his humanistic view of what life could be. “I personally think that being able to work 996 is a huge blessing,” Ma said Thursday in remarks posted on Alibaba's WeChat account. The so-called “996″ schedule refers to working 9 a.m. to 9 p.m., six days a week.
- namelosw 7y ago
  A person win debates does not necessarily practice what he say. Jack Ma is famous for encourage employees working overtime, and leads Alibaba to a toxic workplace where HR abuse everyone with their KPI.
TheCryptoTengu 7y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cwXifDaCjE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cwXifDaCjE this guy i think is predicting the future.
- alexhektor 7y ago
  Well he's not dead yet or in jail ;) But will be interesting to see how this plays out.. Are there any good resources summarizing these facts/ allegations or "connecting" them? Would be interesting to dive down that rabbit hole..

182 points by doppp 7y ago

rvz 7y ago

End of an era.

60 7y ago

Oh wow

mogadsheu 7y ago

He was almost certainly ousted. Look for Ant Financial to grow in even closer connection with CCP interests. My guess is that Alipay will be used as a means to strengthen international dependence on the RMB. The trail of acquisitions suggests such. Very exciting and uncertain times we live in! Edit: this isn’t an anti-China rant at all, just musings based on observations and incomplete data.

pgodzin 7y ago
He was ousted a year ago and was allowed a year-long transition as the ousted head of Alibaba? > The transition was announced a year ago.
- Rapzid 7y ago
  To be fair, if that were the case what's the alternative? Re-education camp?
- mogadsheu 7y ago
  I think it's entirely possible that he's just selling high after a few decades of hard work. Ousting to me doesn't mean getting thrown out of the building with your things in a box, it can happen peacefully and gradually. Jack almost certainly has ties to the CCP and a good dialogue with them--it's a necessity to grow a business in that country. My guess is that there was a good amount of pressure gracefully imposed by an outside group to step down. But maybe he just wants to start a university/cure malaria and move on before China exports slow down.
chirau 7y ago
Not at all, you should read up on the progression of this decision. It's not out of the blue, he announced it more than a year ago.
debaserab2 7y ago
For the uninitiated, what does all that mean exactly? My vague understanding is that the Chinese government now have more oversight of one of China's largest (the largest?) companies. Did they not before, or is this a significant indicator of something that has changed?
- killjoywashere 7y ago
  Read up on the Organization Department of the CCCP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_Department_of_the_Communist_Party_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_Department_of_the...
ryacko 7y ago
Strengthen international dependence on the RMB? They might beat the Swiss franc. The RMB is the 8th most traded currency, and counts for 4% of global volume. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Most_traded_currencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Most_traded_currencie... Once oil is sold in RMB, it would be vastly different.
mytailorisrich 7y ago
Why would he be ousted? It's always entertaining to read the FUD stories about China.
- dragonelite 7y ago
  Kinda this Ma has been talking for years that wanted to return as a teacher. Is it really a disaster that company C level are political or part of a party.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- simongray 7y ago
  > Why would he be ousted? > It's always entertaining to read the FUD stories about China. Can't tell if you're deliberately being disingenuous or if you just don't know, but here are some statistics straight from the propaganda arm of the Chinese Communist Party: > "Since 2003, 72 billionaires in the Chinese mainland have died an unnatural death (...) Among the 72 billionaires, 15 were murdered, 17 committed suicide, seven died from accidents, 14 were executed according to the law and 19 died from diseases." - http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2011-07/22/content_12959437.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2011-07/22/content_129594... Everyone who achieves a certain level of influence at some point submits to the CCP in China. It doesn't matter if it's bloggers, vloggers, actors, billionaries, or some other type of influencer. If you don't actively cheerlead and support the corruption of the current CCP faction in power, you lose your privileges, your audience, and - if you're powerful enough - your life.
  - mytailorisrich 7y ago
    > Can't tell if you're deliberately being disingenuous or if you just don't know, Neither. Your reply is quite insidious and illustrates my comment perfectly.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 7y ago
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26165 7y ago
I agree to that, absolutely. Check the video link I have posted. :)The guy talking there also does not make anti-China rant but speaks anti-CPC.

senectus1 7y ago

anyone ever see when he shared the stage with Elon Musk? Watching Elon control himself was amazing. the guy was trying so hard to not laugh or verbally slap the guy in public. *edit for the lazy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSKYWu-S2G0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSKYWu-S2G0

hipoglucido 7y ago
For those who didn't watch it here are the highlights of that debate https://youtu.be/aHGd6LqAVzw https://youtu.be/aHGd6LqAVzw
- natch 7y ago
  Worth watching for Elon's latest refinements on some of his AI talking points. Just don't expect an actual debate. Much more freeform. The Jack Ma portion of it was embarrassing. I asked my (recently arrived mainland Chinese) Uber driver in SF the other day what Chinese people thought of Jack Ma, and she said they adore/worship him... which is a bit worrying. Actually it's worth watching for that too, to see just what level of thinking gets adored in China, it's eye opening. Especially keeping in mind that that country holds the reins on some of the most serious efforts at AI development around. Definitely can't generalize about the quality of thinking of the more highly educated class from this situation, but it does shed light on the quality of thinking of the masses.
  - Leary 7y ago
    Funny, I asked my Uber driver what he thought of Travis Kalanick. Also worshiped him.
    - natch 7y ago
      Hah!
  - clydethefrog 7y ago
    I could say the same about the adoration Musk gets from the Western masses. A man who is born with a silver spoon in one's mouth has carefully crafted this image of him being a life-saving genius. Claims to be working 24/7 on his projects while reality shows he is tweeting most of the time, with as highlight calling someone a pedophile. Vanity projects like a flamethrower and reinventing a metro system but worse. Exploiting his workers. But the masses think he is personally going to live on Mars to save humanity.

pgodzin 7y ago

People seem to be missing > The transition was announced a year ago.

curiousgal 7y ago
They are not missing it, they are just fueled by heir hate towards China. It amazes me how negative HN comments are whenever anything that has to do with China is brought up.
- throwaway8879 7y ago
  Why does it amaze you? We ought to be overly negative towards rising ambitious hegemonies with bad track records, even if the negativity is irrationally aggressive.
  - pgodzin 7y ago
    If they have such bad track records then those should be enough to be negative towards without having to create irrational conspiracy theories about something that had been announced a year ago.
    - devoply 7y ago
      How does it having been announced a year ago make it utterly legitimate? Jack Ma outright owned the company which was not funded by government money. And all the sudden he announces the company is going to be handed over to the government and I am going to become a teacher. Seems a bit outlandish. I don't know of many CEOs that randomly sail off into the sunset. Do you?
      - pgodzin 7y ago
        You had a post on this thread that started with > Tinfoil hat on... Maybe the CCP fucked him up somehow. Yes, a billionaire CEO retiring and staying on the board of the company he started is much less outlandish than your "tinfoil hat" theory.

sremani 7y ago

Wow! The CPC is making moves faster than I thought! Note to tech people .. this is not about tech at all. Its a total and complete political take-over. I mean get the hell out of $BABA. edit: (an interesting conversation that predicted this and some more) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cwXifDaCjE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cwXifDaCjE

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ETHisso2017 7y ago
Since when did we endorse conspiracy theories on HN?
- sremani 7y ago
  That is a dissident talking to a successful hedgefund manager. Kyle Bass is hawkish on China particularly CPC but calling him or real vision a conspiracy theory outlet reflects a willful blindness.
  - adventured 7y ago
    Guo Wengui is of course not just a dissident, he's a billionaire (or former billionaire; hard to tell post fleeing China) that the Chinese Government has wanted to force to be returned to the mainland for likely execution or long-term imprisonment (having been accused of just about every crime they could slap him with). Guo Wengui believes the Chinese Government wants to murder him. It's obvious he must be saying something interesting to make China so extremely angry.
  - kristianov 7y ago
    Successful? I wouldn't go so far as to call him that. I used to watch Kyle Bass youtube interviews bc his arguments are interesting. But when I researched his track record, I stopped. It appears, after his win in the 2007/8 CDS crisis, he has been wrong non-stop: his EU short in 2009 went south, his bet on Japan debt bubble burst didn't materialize (losing 61% investor money in the process), and his famous nickel bet became an Internet meme... He's now betting on HK and China's impending collapse. It could happen, but I wouldn't trust him too much.

noname120 7y ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17938262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17938262

jeffchien 7y ago
I found it a little unfortunate that one of the threads was so dismissive of NYT [1] due to a SCMP article [2]. I checked archive.org's original snapshot of NYT article [3] and Newsdiff [4] to try to make sure that NYT didn't edit the original article in response, and sure enough they were all worded "planned to step down" and "Mr. Ma will remain on Alibaba's board of directors and continue to mentor the company's management", which is accurate. I suppose the lesson I'm taking away is to not buy into a counter-reaction immediately. It's obvious in hindsight: SCMP is owned by Alibaba after all. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17940919 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17940919 [2] https://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/2163376/jack-ma-remain-alibabas-chairman-succession-plan-younger-talent https://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/2163376/jack... [3] https://web.archive.org/web/20180907230109/https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/technology/alibaba-jack-ma-retiring.html https://web.archive.org/web/20180907230109/https://www.nytim... (may need to turn off JS) [4] http://newsdiffs.org/article-history/https%3A/www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/technology/alibaba-jack-ma-retiring.html http://newsdiffs.org/article-history/https%3A/www.nytimes.co...
- noname120 7y ago
  Thank you for your documented insight. In spite of our best intentions, we—as a community—often do judgement mistakes. One thing that I've been meaning to do is to write postmortems about our reaction to some events, and their eventual outcome. This would help us improve the way that we digest information. One particularly interesting subject to cover would be Bloomberg's alleged “Big Hack”[1]. Between the initial publication and the final denial by all the involved companies, a lot of different narratives have emerged and gained traction here—and most of them turned out to be incorrect. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18138328 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18138328
- yorwba 7y ago

chirau 7y ago

HN hates China. You can tell from the dialogue and tone whenever it is brought up. Objectivity is out of the window, all of a sudden. When it comes to America and the beloved companies, there is always justification. The other day it was privacy and ability to unsubscribe. HN was justifiably ranked really really terrible. Of course everyone came to its defense. Then of course the tyranny of the majority on this beloved forum, though not any participant is willing to accept it. HN needs Dave Chappelle.

swang 7y ago
You aren't saying much with your message other than you think HN, a group containing people with a wide swath of opinions on things, "hates China" and your reasoning is a bit incoherent. I can't even tell what that last line is suppose to mean. HN needs a millionaire to come in and... tell jokes?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
aaomidi 7y ago
No shit HN hates China. How can you actually LIKE China? China is literally one of the worst countries in the world at this current moment. Their ethnic cleansing, treatment of minorities, extreme censorship and state control does not make them a likable country.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  I like China. Of course I hate the government. The country is super exciting though and it's very sad that it's ruled by such dystopian regime.
yorwba 7y ago
Lots of people on HN probably hate China and post accordingly, but that doesn't mean everyone does. Hateful posts tend to get downvoted or flagged. If you want to know what the majority thinks, you need to find a top post that wasn't flagged and didn't attract so many comments it was downranked by the flamewar detector, because otherwise the majority won't even see it. Then wait a day or two for the ranking to stop changing and check the top comment. I think you'll find it much more reasonable than whatever appears at the bottom with "showdead" turned on.

lwansbrough 7y ago

The quality of conversation in this thread is really bad. Feels like reddit in here.

szggzs27 7y ago
reddit has become toxic pool of garbage. the anti china sentiment that has been driven up by US media and Hong Kong protests alike is irrational and is bordering xenophobia and bigotry. just a small glance at r/HongKong and you can see images posted out of context with slogans against the police and government, most of which are targeted towards kids in school, sometimes by the same kids.
- nailer 7y ago
  The HK police, at the behest of a leader chosen by the CCP, are attacking journalists, beating and killing protesters and violating the Sino British joint declaration that determines that HK has their own civil and criminal law. Why would it be bigotry, rather than simple judgement of the CCP for the CCP's actions?
  - szggzs27 7y ago
    and are you there to witness both sides of the story? i will have a wild guess that no.
    - nailer 7y ago
      I'm not sure what "both sides" of pressing someone's hand into their arm until their wrist snaps is. Nor am I sure what "both sides" of someone being hit with truncheons until they convulse and stop moving is. Are you saying the footage is faked or something else?
      - szggzs27 7y ago
        not at all, but you need to consider the context of what happened. the protesters were throwing molotvs. there are footage of protesters beating the police with equal brutality, but i guess you won't find it on reddit. i'm ending my discussion here with you, you can choose to consume and believe whatever media you like. my 2 cent was that reddit is a cesspool of propaganda now.

Nye8 7y ago

看到关于ccp的评论我就想笑

sgt101 7y ago

996 for life for some, not for the winners though.

Traster 7y ago

I think it will be really interesting to see if Alibaba significantly changes after Ma. In silicon valley you absolutely have the cult of the founder - Apple would be nothing without Steve Jobs, Facebook would be nothing without Zuck, everything Bezos touches turns to gold. People around here seem to have a very low impression of Ma (apparently based on one youtube video), but I can imagine running a huge e-commerce empire in China is non-trivial. I could imagine the personal management of relations with the senior Chinese politicians could be make or break for a Chinese company in a way that US companies simply don't face.

saargrin 7y ago
and by non trivial you mean having and maintaining connections to people in power
rewgs 7y ago
To be fair, that one YouTube video (I’m assuming you’re talking about the one with Musk) demonstrated an astronomical and wide-reaching lack of critical thinking skills. Saying such ridiculous things with such confidence like he did in that video would ruin my opinion of anyone.
- carlmr 7y ago
  How do you compare this to the stream of ridiculous tweets coming from Musk? It seems Musk gets an almost infinite benefit of the doubt while his interview partner is judged on this one performance. Also we have the issue of language barrier. Jack Ma was doing the interview in English, which for him is probably extremely difficult. I learned Chinese for 2-3 years and can barely order food. If you combine this language barrier with e.g. the cultural desire to save face, you may have someone saying something to say something, without being able to express themselves properly. I'd say there are a lot of factors at play here and I would withhold judgment for now.
  - hboon 7y ago
    Re English. According to Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma: > "Ma attended Hangzhou Teacher's Institute (currently known as Hangzhou Normal University) and graduated in 1988 with a B.A. in English.[15][16] While at school, Ma was head of the student council.[17] After graduation, he became a lecturer in English and International Trade at Hangzhou Dianzi University."

26165 7y ago

I would point your attention on this video. It contains the exiled Chinese Billionaire's Accusations of China and also the speculations on what has happened to Jack Ma and what may happen in the future. The video is quite long. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cwXifDaCjE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cwXifDaCjE

christophilus 7y ago
Not sure why you’ve been downvoted. This is exactly what I thought of when I saw the headline.

aegis123 7y ago

Maybe Mark Zuckerberg should take a hint like this

akskos 7y ago
Let's arrange a debate for zuck and musk!

xbiitx 7y ago

after elon interview :)

HNLurker2 7y ago

No more AI (Alibaba intelligence)

mark_l_watson 7y ago

As others have mentioned here, the recent “debate” between Jack Ma and Elon Musk was not excellent, but I put that more on Elon Musk. I have listened to other Jack Ma interviews, panel discussions, etc. and I really like his humanistic view of what life could be. People first, technology second. I like Elon Musk’s enthusiasm for difficult problems, but I didn’t like his (what I perceived) lack of respect for Ma.

branchless 7y ago
> I really like his humanistic view of what life could be. “I personally think that being able to work 996 is a huge blessing,” Ma said Thursday in remarks posted on Alibaba's WeChat account. The so-called “996″ schedule refers to working 9 a.m. to 9 p.m., six days a week.
namelosw 7y ago
A person win debates does not necessarily practice what he say. Jack Ma is famous for encourage employees working overtime, and leads Alibaba to a toxic workplace where HR abuse everyone with their KPI.

TheCryptoTengu 7y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cwXifDaCjE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cwXifDaCjE this guy i think is predicting the future.

alexhektor 7y ago
Well he's not dead yet or in jail ;) But will be interesting to see how this plays out.. Are there any good resources summarizing these facts/ allegations or "connecting" them? Would be interesting to dive down that rabbit hole..