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> vaping being a safer alternative A safer alternative to what? Smoking cigarettes? There's absolutely no question that it is. One is a plant product (smoke i

by Reelin 7y ago

> vaping being a safer alternative A safer alternative to what? Smoking cigarettes? There's absolutely no question that it is. One is a plant product (smoke is bad to inhale) that naturally contains a number chemicals that you probably don't want to be consuming. On top of this, there are additional additives (which vary by manufacturer) that also have significant health effects. Overview (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_additives_in_cigarettes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_additives_in_cigarette...) and more details (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040350/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040350/). The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. ...except when it isn't, as seems to be happening here. The safety of vaping is entirely dependent on what's in the liquid you're vaporizing; always keep that in mind when purchasing it. Also, do bear in mind that it's probably not fantastic for your health to be chronically inhaling anything other than highly purified air, no matter how benign it may seem. Relative to smoking cigarettes (or any other plant product), it's much safer. Relative to not vaping at all, there are likely to be at least some health risks, even if they haven't been clearly established yet. > Is there any known experience similar to vaping/smoking of today that has really minimal health consequences but maybe isn't as addictive? If you're asking about drugs with similar effects to nicotine that are less addictive, I'm not aware of any. You could always purchase vaping liquid that doesn't contain any nicotine though.

atlasunshrugged 7y ago
Sorry, yes, safer alternative to smoking cigarettes Fair enough, I'm sure it's not healthy to chronically inhale anything other than air > If you're asking about drugs with similar effects to nicotine that are less addictive, I'm not aware of any. You could always purchase vaping liquid that doesn't contain any nicotine though. I was asking that but a broader question for me is, are there any safe replacements for cigarettes out there that match the qualities that cigarettes have without the harmful side effects (the idea being if you could create something that was just as fulfilling, addictive, etc. but without the negative side effects you could dramatically decrease the health toll of cigarette smoking). You could argue vapes are that product but it seems like the jury is still out on how much better they actually are than cigarettes and the trouble with attracting new users into the market
- Reelin 7y ago
  > it seems like the jury is still out on how much better they actually are than cigarettes No. IT IS NOT. You have been mislead. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, there is currently a lot of FUD and propaganda surrounding vaping. Perhaps due to the term "e-cigarette"? Other than artificial flavors, the major constituents in the liquid are what I listed above - propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin, and nicotine. Only nicotine has significant documented health effects (at least that I am aware of), and even that's almost entirely down to it being addictive. Bear in mind that I'm comparing this to smoking weed or drinking alcohol - both extremely common pastimes throughout the world, and both clearly more harmful than vaping. Anyone trying to scare you off of vaping while not worrying about those other two activities is out of touch with reality. Of course, abstaining from all of those would be the best advice as far as your long term health is concerned.
  - atlasunshrugged 7y ago
    Do you have any solid RCTs or meta analysis you could point me to about how much better they are than cigarettes? Agreed, there's a lot of FUD, but a lot of it is coming from sources that give me a lot of hesitation to doubt (lots of public health leaders, tobacco control groups, WHO people) I understand alcohol or weed is more harmful than vaping, I'm personally just interested in cigarettes as that seems to be the replacement part, I'm not sure someone would quit drinking or smoking weed and replace with vaping Edit: I know you pointed me to a solid report in an earlier comment, any additional ones? There are huge numbers of reports on tobacco in general and it's easy to find 1 or 2 reports reflecting one opinion or another
    - mattbessey 7y ago
      See https://www.nhs.uk/smokefree/help-and-advice/e-cigarettes https://www.nhs.uk/smokefree/help-and-advice/e-cigarettes which cites > Public Health England's 2015 independent evidence review found that, based on the available evidence, vaping is around 95% less harmful than smoking. The Royal College of Physicians came to a similar conclusion in its 2016 report 'Nicotine without smoke: tobacco harm reduction'.
cowsandmilk 7y ago
> The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. What an extraordinary meaningless statement. The question is the health effects of vaporizing those and inhaling them (along with other ingredients). You are happy to provide links about health effects of cigarettes, including ingredients present in n minute amounts, but will only provide a list of major ingredients in vaping products and provide no evidence on whether inhaling them is safe or not. I believe the current scientific consensus is that more research is needed. These are fairly new products and studies have only started. There are definite impacts on the lung physiology and the heating process does cause chemical reactions between flavorants and the carrying solution creating new compounds such that even if the flavorants and major ingredients are safe independently (which they aren't, see next link), there are byproducts that are produce that may not be[2]. The glycerol in commercial vaping solution seems to be a source of impurities that are known to be harmful[3]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31483291 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31483291 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30335174 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30335174 [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31460462 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31460462
- DanBC 7y ago
  Is the question "is vaping harmful?" (because it probably is) or "is vaping about as harmful as smoking?" (because it almost certainly isn't).
  - teknopaul 7y ago
    Unless vaping makes you smoke more compared to cigarettes. In my experience it does. Nicoteen us crazily addictive whatever form you provide it in people will do that too much. The more convenient the more they will do it.
    - alexandercrohde 7y ago
      I don't think even this is true. The nicotine isn't really what's bad for you, it's the smoke and 600+ carcinogens in cigarette smoke. I'd imagine it'd be safer to vape 10x than smoke 1x.
gamblor956 7y ago
The number of people who have died within days or weeks of using a new cigarette from smoking-related causes they didn't have before the switch: 0. The number of people who have died within days or weeks of trying a new vaping product: 5 and counting. Out of a much smaller user base. Right now the evidence is that vaping is more dangerous in the short term, with no evidence that it is any healthier in the long term.
drewmol 7y ago
>The safety of vaping is entirely dependent on what's in the liquid you're vaporizing This is statement is incorrect. It discludes the very real and proven health threats that heavy metal consumption can enlist. A simple understanding of the chemistry involved is enough to infer the presence of dangers not dependant on the liquid being used. If you cook an acidic tomatoe sauce in a completely copper pot... the safty of consuming that sauce is not entirely dependant on the tomatoes and the same applies to vaping[0]. [0] https://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/news/20180226/toxic-metals-found-in-e-cigarette-vapor https://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/news/20180226/toxic-...

by Reelin 7y ago

atlasunshrugged 7y ago

Sorry, yes, safer alternative to smoking cigarettes Fair enough, I'm sure it's not healthy to chronically inhale anything other than air > If you're asking about drugs with similar effects to nicotine that are less addictive, I'm not aware of any. You could always purchase vaping liquid that doesn't contain any nicotine though. I was asking that but a broader question for me is, are there any safe replacements for cigarettes out there that match the qualities that cigarettes have without the harmful side effects (the idea being if you could create something that was just as fulfilling, addictive, etc. but without the negative side effects you could dramatically decrease the health toll of cigarette smoking). You could argue vapes are that product but it seems like the jury is still out on how much better they actually are than cigarettes and the trouble with attracting new users into the market

Reelin 7y ago
> it seems like the jury is still out on how much better they actually are than cigarettes No. IT IS NOT. You have been mislead. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, there is currently a lot of FUD and propaganda surrounding vaping. Perhaps due to the term "e-cigarette"? Other than artificial flavors, the major constituents in the liquid are what I listed above - propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin, and nicotine. Only nicotine has significant documented health effects (at least that I am aware of), and even that's almost entirely down to it being addictive. Bear in mind that I'm comparing this to smoking weed or drinking alcohol - both extremely common pastimes throughout the world, and both clearly more harmful than vaping. Anyone trying to scare you off of vaping while not worrying about those other two activities is out of touch with reality. Of course, abstaining from all of those would be the best advice as far as your long term health is concerned.
- atlasunshrugged 7y ago
  Do you have any solid RCTs or meta analysis you could point me to about how much better they are than cigarettes? Agreed, there's a lot of FUD, but a lot of it is coming from sources that give me a lot of hesitation to doubt (lots of public health leaders, tobacco control groups, WHO people) I understand alcohol or weed is more harmful than vaping, I'm personally just interested in cigarettes as that seems to be the replacement part, I'm not sure someone would quit drinking or smoking weed and replace with vaping Edit: I know you pointed me to a solid report in an earlier comment, any additional ones? There are huge numbers of reports on tobacco in general and it's easy to find 1 or 2 reports reflecting one opinion or another
  - mattbessey 7y ago
    See https://www.nhs.uk/smokefree/help-and-advice/e-cigarettes https://www.nhs.uk/smokefree/help-and-advice/e-cigarettes which cites > Public Health England's 2015 independent evidence review found that, based on the available evidence, vaping is around 95% less harmful than smoking. The Royal College of Physicians came to a similar conclusion in its 2016 report 'Nicotine without smoke: tobacco harm reduction'.

cowsandmilk 7y ago

> The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. What an extraordinary meaningless statement. The question is the health effects of vaporizing those and inhaling them (along with other ingredients). You are happy to provide links about health effects of cigarettes, including ingredients present in n minute amounts, but will only provide a list of major ingredients in vaping products and provide no evidence on whether inhaling them is safe or not. I believe the current scientific consensus is that more research is needed. These are fairly new products and studies have only started. There are definite impacts on the lung physiology and the heating process does cause chemical reactions between flavorants and the carrying solution creating new compounds such that even if the flavorants and major ingredients are safe independently (which they aren't, see next link), there are byproducts that are produce that may not be[2]. The glycerol in commercial vaping solution seems to be a source of impurities that are known to be harmful[3]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31483291 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31483291 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30335174 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30335174 [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31460462 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31460462

DanBC 7y ago
Is the question "is vaping harmful?" (because it probably is) or "is vaping about as harmful as smoking?" (because it almost certainly isn't).
- teknopaul 7y ago
  Unless vaping makes you smoke more compared to cigarettes. In my experience it does. Nicoteen us crazily addictive whatever form you provide it in people will do that too much. The more convenient the more they will do it.
  - alexandercrohde 7y ago
    I don't think even this is true. The nicotine isn't really what's bad for you, it's the smoke and 600+ carcinogens in cigarette smoke. I'd imagine it'd be safer to vape 10x than smoke 1x.

gamblor956 7y ago

The number of people who have died within days or weeks of using a new cigarette from smoking-related causes they didn't have before the switch: 0. The number of people who have died within days or weeks of trying a new vaping product: 5 and counting. Out of a much smaller user base. Right now the evidence is that vaping is more dangerous in the short term, with no evidence that it is any healthier in the long term.

drewmol 7y ago

>The safety of vaping is entirely dependent on what's in the liquid you're vaporizing This is statement is incorrect. It discludes the very real and proven health threats that heavy metal consumption can enlist. A simple understanding of the chemistry involved is enough to infer the presence of dangers not dependant on the liquid being used. If you cook an acidic tomatoe sauce in a completely copper pot... the safty of consuming that sauce is not entirely dependant on the tomatoes and the same applies to vaping[0]. [0] https://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/news/20180226/toxic-metals-found-in-e-cigarette-vapor https://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/news/20180226/toxic-...