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As someone who was in the industry, what do you think about the argument of vaping being a safer alternative? I see pretty mixed things in the health community

As someone who was in the industry, what do you think about the argument of vaping being a safer alternative? I see pretty mixed things in the health community but it's tough because some of the argument seems to be that the tobacco industry has acted nefariously in the past so we can't trust any innovation in the space. Is there any known experience similar to vaping/smoking of today that has really minimal health consequences but maybe isn't as addictive?

rkangel 7y ago
If you are an existing smoker and if your device and liquid are from a reputable supplier, absolutely yes. The problem is that a lot of the industry is not reputable and not well controlled. This means that you can get liquids that contain all sorts of things and devices that heat in an uncontrolled way. Even the perfect liquid if overheated (as it is in many large devices) produces aldehydes. As you might expect, breathing formaldehyde is bad. The industry also seems to be taking the opportunity to up the nicotine numbers, so if your intention is to give up that's not helping.
johngrefe 7y ago
I think it's a lot safer than smoking, there's probably a lot safer methods, but vapings efficacy vs other quit methods is just too good to discard for even slight health risks vs smoking. Only Juul/Pax has a hidden Big Tobacco interest, the rest are either overt or companies that are dedicated to vapor only. Almost all the innovation came from outside Big Tobacco, but all that is coming to an end with FDA'S regulations of Vaping. No new products so I left, since I exclusively designed hardware. Most vapor products can be used with eliquid that has varied levels of nicotine and most shops were (2012-2017) very active in promoting customers to reduce their nicotine level to 0, so addiction to the devices can be self regulated if that is your goal.
- atlasunshrugged 7y ago
  Okay, didn't realize it was only Juul/Pax that had that hidden interest. I'm mainly in Eastern Europe these days and Philip Morris is pushing IQOS hard (I know it's in a different category but I think it eats at the same market share, younger more affluent health-conscious users who know cigs are bad but still want to smoke something) You mention there probably being safer methods - any idea on them or where I should look for more info? I've been researching tobacco, mainly taxation (which in theory is one of the most powerful ways to get people to quit things, by jacking up the prices) but I'm generally interested in the field, and it seems to me that a potentially even better methodology than making things too expensive for many to afford is to innovate and develop something that's just way healthier a replacement that gives consumers the same benefits.
  - rkangel 7y ago
    Yes, Juul was bought for $4bn by ALCS which is the parent company behind Philip Morris USA, Marlboro and many other brands. Philip Morris International (i.e. Europe) is technically a separate entity. They were separated out a while ago (probably to avoid anti-trust issues). In theory they share stuff with the US but the separation is why you're getting different products.
- rkangel 7y ago
  Interestingly, one big manufacturer I worked with specifically avoided making their device a 'cessation aid' - something to help give up. You can think what you want about their motivation, but the explanation they gave is that if you are a cessation aid then you get into medical device territory and so hit a load of extra regulation.
- TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
  This seems to be the correct answer. Vaping nicotine should be used only as part of a plan to cease smoking. That’s the only sound advice, if people choose to ignore it then that’s on them. It’d still way less damaging than cigarettes.
  - Reelin 7y ago
    The US seems to be in the process of legalizing recreational weed, which is often consumed by inhaling plant smoke. Relative to that (or alcohol), I wouldn't worry too much about vaping nicotine. It doesn't appear to have any significant harmful effects other than being addictive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Adverse_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Adverse_effects). That being said, not chronically inhaling anything other than air is definitely the right way to go if you're taking long term health effects into consideration.
    - TulliusCicero 7y ago
      Yeah I'm sure inhaling weed smoke isn't healthy, but at least with weed, very few people inhale it as regularly as cigarette smokers do cigarette smoke.
  - JamesBarney 7y ago
    But if someone doesn't have plans to cease smoking should they continue to smoke cigarettes instead of switching to vaping?
    - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
      My personal opinion is yes. What mean to say is, if you are a purveyor of nicotine products in a professional manner, probably best to not recommend nicotine containing products outside the context of smoking cessation. Though this line of inquiry rapid segues in to a philosophical debate.
      - JamesBarney 7y ago
- ryloric 7y ago
  A bit off topic, but why hasn't the tech advanced too much in the RTA/RDTA area? I tried juul, but pods are just not for me, they produce too little vapour and feel awkward to use. I've been using Creed and Zeus atomizers since I started and they are really low tech with lots of issues, they leak juice, the airflow is not ideal, sometimes they burn the coils too quickly, no one knows what the ideal wick size or thickness is and so on. I sometimes wonder, if the potential market for vaping is so huge, why are there no better products with better designs? I feel like there's a lot of simple/easy fixed to improve them.
  - dillonmckay 7y ago
    I think it is because the big players know to not get involved, b/c of the FUD, pending legislation, and lawsuit potential. I would think LG could create an amazong product.
Reelin 7y ago
> vaping being a safer alternative A safer alternative to what? Smoking cigarettes? There's absolutely no question that it is. One is a plant product (smoke is bad to inhale) that naturally contains a number chemicals that you probably don't want to be consuming. On top of this, there are additional additives (which vary by manufacturer) that also have significant health effects. Overview (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_additives_in_cigarettes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_additives_in_cigarette...) and more details (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040350/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040350/). The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. ...except when it isn't, as seems to be happening here. The safety of vaping is entirely dependent on what's in the liquid you're vaporizing; always keep that in mind when purchasing it. Also, do bear in mind that it's probably not fantastic for your health to be chronically inhaling anything other than highly purified air, no matter how benign it may seem. Relative to smoking cigarettes (or any other plant product), it's much safer. Relative to not vaping at all, there are likely to be at least some health risks, even if they haven't been clearly established yet. > Is there any known experience similar to vaping/smoking of today that has really minimal health consequences but maybe isn't as addictive? If you're asking about drugs with similar effects to nicotine that are less addictive, I'm not aware of any. You could always purchase vaping liquid that doesn't contain any nicotine though.
- atlasunshrugged 7y ago
  Sorry, yes, safer alternative to smoking cigarettes Fair enough, I'm sure it's not healthy to chronically inhale anything other than air > If you're asking about drugs with similar effects to nicotine that are less addictive, I'm not aware of any. You could always purchase vaping liquid that doesn't contain any nicotine though. I was asking that but a broader question for me is, are there any safe replacements for cigarettes out there that match the qualities that cigarettes have without the harmful side effects (the idea being if you could create something that was just as fulfilling, addictive, etc. but without the negative side effects you could dramatically decrease the health toll of cigarette smoking). You could argue vapes are that product but it seems like the jury is still out on how much better they actually are than cigarettes and the trouble with attracting new users into the market

rkangel 7y ago

If you are an existing smoker and if your device and liquid are from a reputable supplier, absolutely yes. The problem is that a lot of the industry is not reputable and not well controlled. This means that you can get liquids that contain all sorts of things and devices that heat in an uncontrolled way. Even the perfect liquid if overheated (as it is in many large devices) produces aldehydes. As you might expect, breathing formaldehyde is bad. The industry also seems to be taking the opportunity to up the nicotine numbers, so if your intention is to give up that's not helping.

johngrefe 7y ago

I think it's a lot safer than smoking, there's probably a lot safer methods, but vapings efficacy vs other quit methods is just too good to discard for even slight health risks vs smoking. Only Juul/Pax has a hidden Big Tobacco interest, the rest are either overt or companies that are dedicated to vapor only. Almost all the innovation came from outside Big Tobacco, but all that is coming to an end with FDA'S regulations of Vaping. No new products so I left, since I exclusively designed hardware. Most vapor products can be used with eliquid that has varied levels of nicotine and most shops were (2012-2017) very active in promoting customers to reduce their nicotine level to 0, so addiction to the devices can be self regulated if that is your goal.

atlasunshrugged 7y ago
Okay, didn't realize it was only Juul/Pax that had that hidden interest. I'm mainly in Eastern Europe these days and Philip Morris is pushing IQOS hard (I know it's in a different category but I think it eats at the same market share, younger more affluent health-conscious users who know cigs are bad but still want to smoke something) You mention there probably being safer methods - any idea on them or where I should look for more info? I've been researching tobacco, mainly taxation (which in theory is one of the most powerful ways to get people to quit things, by jacking up the prices) but I'm generally interested in the field, and it seems to me that a potentially even better methodology than making things too expensive for many to afford is to innovate and develop something that's just way healthier a replacement that gives consumers the same benefits.
- rkangel 7y ago
  Yes, Juul was bought for $4bn by ALCS which is the parent company behind Philip Morris USA, Marlboro and many other brands. Philip Morris International (i.e. Europe) is technically a separate entity. They were separated out a while ago (probably to avoid anti-trust issues). In theory they share stuff with the US but the separation is why you're getting different products.
rkangel 7y ago
Interestingly, one big manufacturer I worked with specifically avoided making their device a 'cessation aid' - something to help give up. You can think what you want about their motivation, but the explanation they gave is that if you are a cessation aid then you get into medical device territory and so hit a load of extra regulation.
TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
This seems to be the correct answer. Vaping nicotine should be used only as part of a plan to cease smoking. That’s the only sound advice, if people choose to ignore it then that’s on them. It’d still way less damaging than cigarettes.
- Reelin 7y ago
  The US seems to be in the process of legalizing recreational weed, which is often consumed by inhaling plant smoke. Relative to that (or alcohol), I wouldn't worry too much about vaping nicotine. It doesn't appear to have any significant harmful effects other than being addictive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Adverse_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Adverse_effects). That being said, not chronically inhaling anything other than air is definitely the right way to go if you're taking long term health effects into consideration.
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago
    Yeah I'm sure inhaling weed smoke isn't healthy, but at least with weed, very few people inhale it as regularly as cigarette smokers do cigarette smoke.
- JamesBarney 7y ago
  But if someone doesn't have plans to cease smoking should they continue to smoke cigarettes instead of switching to vaping?
  - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
    My personal opinion is yes. What mean to say is, if you are a purveyor of nicotine products in a professional manner, probably best to not recommend nicotine containing products outside the context of smoking cessation. Though this line of inquiry rapid segues in to a philosophical debate.
    - JamesBarney 7y ago
ryloric 7y ago
A bit off topic, but why hasn't the tech advanced too much in the RTA/RDTA area? I tried juul, but pods are just not for me, they produce too little vapour and feel awkward to use. I've been using Creed and Zeus atomizers since I started and they are really low tech with lots of issues, they leak juice, the airflow is not ideal, sometimes they burn the coils too quickly, no one knows what the ideal wick size or thickness is and so on. I sometimes wonder, if the potential market for vaping is so huge, why are there no better products with better designs? I feel like there's a lot of simple/easy fixed to improve them.
- dillonmckay 7y ago
  I think it is because the big players know to not get involved, b/c of the FUD, pending legislation, and lawsuit potential. I would think LG could create an amazong product.

Reelin 7y ago

> vaping being a safer alternative A safer alternative to what? Smoking cigarettes? There's absolutely no question that it is. One is a plant product (smoke is bad to inhale) that naturally contains a number chemicals that you probably don't want to be consuming. On top of this, there are additional additives (which vary by manufacturer) that also have significant health effects. Overview (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_additives_in_cigarettes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_additives_in_cigarette...) and more details (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040350/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040350/). The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. ...except when it isn't, as seems to be happening here. The safety of vaping is entirely dependent on what's in the liquid you're vaporizing; always keep that in mind when purchasing it. Also, do bear in mind that it's probably not fantastic for your health to be chronically inhaling anything other than highly purified air, no matter how benign it may seem. Relative to smoking cigarettes (or any other plant product), it's much safer. Relative to not vaping at all, there are likely to be at least some health risks, even if they haven't been clearly established yet. > Is there any known experience similar to vaping/smoking of today that has really minimal health consequences but maybe isn't as addictive? If you're asking about drugs with similar effects to nicotine that are less addictive, I'm not aware of any. You could always purchase vaping liquid that doesn't contain any nicotine though.

atlasunshrugged 7y ago
Sorry, yes, safer alternative to smoking cigarettes Fair enough, I'm sure it's not healthy to chronically inhale anything other than air > If you're asking about drugs with similar effects to nicotine that are less addictive, I'm not aware of any. You could always purchase vaping liquid that doesn't contain any nicotine though. I was asking that but a broader question for me is, are there any safe replacements for cigarettes out there that match the qualities that cigarettes have without the harmful side effects (the idea being if you could create something that was just as fulfilling, addictive, etc. but without the negative side effects you could dramatically decrease the health toll of cigarette smoking). You could argue vapes are that product but it seems like the jury is still out on how much better they actually are than cigarettes and the trouble with attracting new users into the market