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A more accurate title is: suppliers break chinese labor law and apple's internal standards in order to meet deadlines. Apple does occasional audits, but what m

A more accurate title is: suppliers break chinese labor law and apple's internal standards in order to meet deadlines. Apple does occasional audits, but what more can you do when the people you audit lie to you because they _want_ to work? > While overtime is allegedly often required, most workers want to work overtime to make more money, according to an anonymous diary written by a CLW investigator in the factory.

Hokusai 7y ago
"It all centers on Zhengzhou, a city of six million people in an impoverished region of China. Running at full tilt, the factory here, owned and operated by Apple’s manufacturing partner Foxconn, can produce 500,000 iPhones a day. Locals now refer to Zhengzhou as “iPhone City.” ... Foxconn is Apple’s largest supplier. Apple is Foxconn’s largest customer." https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/29/technology/apple-iphone-china-foxconn.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/29/technology/apple-iphone-c... > While overtime is allegedly often required, most workers want to work overtime to make more money, according to an anonymous diary written by a CLW investigator in the factory. So it is ok to force me to do overtime if my colleagues want to stay? Does not matter if I am overstressed, have children or any other circumstance? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/07/suicide-chinese-iphone-factory-reignites-concern-working-conditions/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/07/suicide-chinese-...
- nihonde 7y ago
  They want the overtime because they have families. These are often itinerant workers who want to come to a factory, work hard for a while, send their wages back to their home town, and then return. There are many who resent efforts to “save” them.
  - cptskippy 7y ago
    You're attributing a singular desire to everyone to justify a crime. Given 10 people, if 9 want to work overtime that doesn't make it ok to force the 10th person to work overtime.
    - nihonde 7y ago
      The same argument works in the other direction, except then it’s 9 to 1. Don’t get me wrong: I’m a friend of the working person. I’m just aware that people are projecting their own values onto this situation in ways that are unfortunately not helpful to many workers who want long shifts. Whether or not they should be allowed to work as long as they want is a big, thorny question.
      - Hokusai 7y ago
        > The same argument works in the other direction, except then it’s 9 to 1. Will not be better to let them choose? (For real without pressures). > I’m just aware that people are projecting their own values onto this situation in ways that are unfortunately not helpful to many workers who want long shifts. Long shifts are profitable only if everybody else is not doing them. Otherwise, everybody has more money and prices go up causing inflation. "Extra shifts" should - by definition - be the exception, not the rule. > Whether or not they should be allowed to work as long as they want is a big, thorny question. Higher accident rate, worse health, more stress, etc. are not good. If money really will solve their problems, it will be better to reduce Apple/Foxconn profits in exchange for better lives for their employees.
        rovr138 7y ago
        > Long shifts are profitable only if everybody else is not doing them. Otherwise, everybody has more money and prices go up causing inflation. "Extra shifts" should - by definition - be the exception, not the rule. That’s assuming the money stays in that region and doesn’t get sent to other places. People might come to this area to work but send money back to their families in other places.
        nihonde 7y ago
        Who knows, really? This is as close as I come to a reliable source: https://mobile.twitter.com/i/status/1171140556472442880 https://mobile.twitter.com/i/status/1171140556472442880
      - tehjoker 7y ago
- ms4720 7y ago
  In China yes it is, it is against the law to do it and China is not a place where rule of law exists
  - vkou 7y ago
    Rule of law is not a binary absolute. It is a spectrum. So, yes, it exists in China, to a greater extent than some countries, to a lesser extent than others. I understand it makes for a nice meme to claim that it is completely absent, though.
- pierrebai 7y ago
  I was surprised by the figure of 500K iPhone per day... then I checked total sales per year. In 2018 [1], Apple sold 217M iPhone. So even 500K is a low estimate, as that would not be enough production (0.5M * 365 < 217M...) So the figure is closer to 600K iPhones per day, or almopst 7 phones per second, all year round. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/263401/global-apple-iphone-sales-since-3rd-quarter-2007/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/263401/global-apple-ipho...
  - mercutio2 7y ago
    Across all final assembly lines. This is just one assembly line.
cwyers 7y ago
Apple can do math. Apple can look at what they're getting and what they're paying for it and run the figures and see what that comes to in terms of pay for hours worked. At a certain point, asking for X and putting down rules that make X impossible or highly improbable isn't getting conned, it's trying to get to plausible deniability.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  The complaints here don't seem to be that the workers were underpaid for hours worked. It's hard to imagine what kind of math could let Apple look at "what they're getting and what they're paying for it" and deduce the amount of overtime or percentage of temps.
  - simonh 7y ago
    There's no question, they're definitely accountable for violations like this. I think they know that, which is why they have the monitoring and interview processes in place. The question for me is, what's the mechanism for enforcing accountability down the chain. Foxconn operates the plants, so what is the mechanism for incentivising them to comply? What penalties or sanctions do they face for violations? That's really the only way to get to the root of this, but it can't be financial penalties to Apple. That would create perverse incentives and moral hazard.
    - dm3730 7y ago
      > That's really the only way to get to the root of this, but it can't be financial penalties to Apple. That would create perverse incentives and moral hazard. I don't follow. What perverse incentives and moral hazard?
      - simonh 7y ago
        Apple would financially benefit from the abuse of Chinese workers.
sschueller 7y ago
Apple does a lot more than occasional audits. If they didn't the next iPhone would be posted all over blogs and twitter. Yet they are able to keep quite a tight grip and leaks. This only works if you have control of the entire chain.
- M4v3R 7y ago
  It was, we know basically everything there is to know about the next iPhones for quite a while.
- gruez 7y ago
  Wasn't the exterior design of the next iPhone leaked months ago?
carlob 7y ago
Which is one of many reasons to outsource, so you can't be held accountable...
Fnoord 7y ago
> A more accurate title is: suppliers break chinese labor law and apple's internal standards in order to meet deadlines. Ah yes, of course Apple is not to blame here... Apple going in bed with Foxconn is their choice. Apple can opt for a more fair supplier who pays their employees fair wage, and give them more fair rights (not up to Western standards but nonetheless a substantional improvement). If a small company like Fairphone can do it [1], so can Apple. [1] https://www.fairphone.com/en/our-goals/social-work-values/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/our-goals/social-work-values/
- jpttsn 7y ago
  Many things are harder, not easier, for large companies than for small.
  - Fnoord 7y ago
    And many things are easier, not harder, for large companies than for small. This is a non sequitur. It has taken Fairphone considerable effort to arrange these working conditions. It effectively makes their device more expensive, and gives them far less choice on suppliers. Apple is such a powerful company with deep pockets that they could easily arrange better working conditions for employees of Foxconn if they wanted.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      Then they lose business to phone makers that don’t choose to arrange for better conditions for employees. This is a problem that needs to be solved by governments.
      - heurisko 7y ago
        Apple doesn't compete on price point; they make luxury products. I would argue this means they would be more in a position to improve the conditions for their employees than other companies. Government intervention would help, but I assume not before labour organises to put pressure on the government in the first place.
C1sc0cat 7y ago
For those that haven't worked in a more traditional engineering /factory setting. This "overtime is where workers make extra $" is the rule in the west as well.
otikik 7y ago
> they lie to you because they _want_ to work? They lie to you because they _want to exploit their workers_, which is exactly why the audits were in place.
good_guy 7y ago
yeah, poor apple. lol.
robdachshund 7y ago
Gee, I dunno, make their products in a country with labor standards and decent wages instead of massive sweatshops

Hokusai 7y ago

"It all centers on Zhengzhou, a city of six million people in an impoverished region of China. Running at full tilt, the factory here, owned and operated by Apple’s manufacturing partner Foxconn, can produce 500,000 iPhones a day. Locals now refer to Zhengzhou as “iPhone City.” ... Foxconn is Apple’s largest supplier. Apple is Foxconn’s largest customer." https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/29/technology/apple-iphone-china-foxconn.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/29/technology/apple-iphone-c... > While overtime is allegedly often required, most workers want to work overtime to make more money, according to an anonymous diary written by a CLW investigator in the factory. So it is ok to force me to do overtime if my colleagues want to stay? Does not matter if I am overstressed, have children or any other circumstance? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/07/suicide-chinese-iphone-factory-reignites-concern-working-conditions/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/07/suicide-chinese-...

nihonde 7y ago
They want the overtime because they have families. These are often itinerant workers who want to come to a factory, work hard for a while, send their wages back to their home town, and then return. There are many who resent efforts to “save” them.
- cptskippy 7y ago
  You're attributing a singular desire to everyone to justify a crime. Given 10 people, if 9 want to work overtime that doesn't make it ok to force the 10th person to work overtime.
  - nihonde 7y ago
    The same argument works in the other direction, except then it’s 9 to 1. Don’t get me wrong: I’m a friend of the working person. I’m just aware that people are projecting their own values onto this situation in ways that are unfortunately not helpful to many workers who want long shifts. Whether or not they should be allowed to work as long as they want is a big, thorny question.
    - Hokusai 7y ago
      > The same argument works in the other direction, except then it’s 9 to 1. Will not be better to let them choose? (For real without pressures). > I’m just aware that people are projecting their own values onto this situation in ways that are unfortunately not helpful to many workers who want long shifts. Long shifts are profitable only if everybody else is not doing them. Otherwise, everybody has more money and prices go up causing inflation. "Extra shifts" should - by definition - be the exception, not the rule. > Whether or not they should be allowed to work as long as they want is a big, thorny question. Higher accident rate, worse health, more stress, etc. are not good. If money really will solve their problems, it will be better to reduce Apple/Foxconn profits in exchange for better lives for their employees.
      - rovr138 7y ago
        > Long shifts are profitable only if everybody else is not doing them. Otherwise, everybody has more money and prices go up causing inflation. "Extra shifts" should - by definition - be the exception, not the rule. That’s assuming the money stays in that region and doesn’t get sent to other places. People might come to this area to work but send money back to their families in other places.
      - nihonde 7y ago
        Who knows, really? This is as close as I come to a reliable source: https://mobile.twitter.com/i/status/1171140556472442880 https://mobile.twitter.com/i/status/1171140556472442880
    - tehjoker 7y ago
ms4720 7y ago
In China yes it is, it is against the law to do it and China is not a place where rule of law exists
- vkou 7y ago
  Rule of law is not a binary absolute. It is a spectrum. So, yes, it exists in China, to a greater extent than some countries, to a lesser extent than others. I understand it makes for a nice meme to claim that it is completely absent, though.
pierrebai 7y ago
I was surprised by the figure of 500K iPhone per day... then I checked total sales per year. In 2018 [1], Apple sold 217M iPhone. So even 500K is a low estimate, as that would not be enough production (0.5M * 365 < 217M...) So the figure is closer to 600K iPhones per day, or almopst 7 phones per second, all year round. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/263401/global-apple-iphone-sales-since-3rd-quarter-2007/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/263401/global-apple-ipho...
- mercutio2 7y ago
  Across all final assembly lines. This is just one assembly line.

cwyers 7y ago

Apple can do math. Apple can look at what they're getting and what they're paying for it and run the figures and see what that comes to in terms of pay for hours worked. At a certain point, asking for X and putting down rules that make X impossible or highly improbable isn't getting conned, it's trying to get to plausible deniability.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
The complaints here don't seem to be that the workers were underpaid for hours worked. It's hard to imagine what kind of math could let Apple look at "what they're getting and what they're paying for it" and deduce the amount of overtime or percentage of temps.
- simonh 7y ago
  There's no question, they're definitely accountable for violations like this. I think they know that, which is why they have the monitoring and interview processes in place. The question for me is, what's the mechanism for enforcing accountability down the chain. Foxconn operates the plants, so what is the mechanism for incentivising them to comply? What penalties or sanctions do they face for violations? That's really the only way to get to the root of this, but it can't be financial penalties to Apple. That would create perverse incentives and moral hazard.
  - dm3730 7y ago
    > That's really the only way to get to the root of this, but it can't be financial penalties to Apple. That would create perverse incentives and moral hazard. I don't follow. What perverse incentives and moral hazard?
    - simonh 7y ago
      Apple would financially benefit from the abuse of Chinese workers.

sschueller 7y ago

Apple does a lot more than occasional audits. If they didn't the next iPhone would be posted all over blogs and twitter. Yet they are able to keep quite a tight grip and leaks. This only works if you have control of the entire chain.

M4v3R 7y ago
It was, we know basically everything there is to know about the next iPhones for quite a while.
gruez 7y ago
Wasn't the exterior design of the next iPhone leaked months ago?

carlob 7y ago

Which is one of many reasons to outsource, so you can't be held accountable...

Fnoord 7y ago

> A more accurate title is: suppliers break chinese labor law and apple's internal standards in order to meet deadlines. Ah yes, of course Apple is not to blame here... Apple going in bed with Foxconn is their choice. Apple can opt for a more fair supplier who pays their employees fair wage, and give them more fair rights (not up to Western standards but nonetheless a substantional improvement). If a small company like Fairphone can do it [1], so can Apple. [1] https://www.fairphone.com/en/our-goals/social-work-values/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/our-goals/social-work-values/

jpttsn 7y ago
Many things are harder, not easier, for large companies than for small.
- Fnoord 7y ago
  And many things are easier, not harder, for large companies than for small. This is a non sequitur. It has taken Fairphone considerable effort to arrange these working conditions. It effectively makes their device more expensive, and gives them far less choice on suppliers. Apple is such a powerful company with deep pockets that they could easily arrange better working conditions for employees of Foxconn if they wanted.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Then they lose business to phone makers that don’t choose to arrange for better conditions for employees. This is a problem that needs to be solved by governments.
    - heurisko 7y ago
      Apple doesn't compete on price point; they make luxury products. I would argue this means they would be more in a position to improve the conditions for their employees than other companies. Government intervention would help, but I assume not before labour organises to put pressure on the government in the first place.

C1sc0cat 7y ago

For those that haven't worked in a more traditional engineering /factory setting. This "overtime is where workers make extra $" is the rule in the west as well.

otikik 7y ago

> they lie to you because they _want_ to work? They lie to you because they _want to exploit their workers_, which is exactly why the audits were in place.

good_guy 7y ago

yeah, poor apple. lol.

robdachshund 7y ago

Gee, I dunno, make their products in a country with labor standards and decent wages instead of massive sweatshops