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Specifically, the most charitable Minsky interpretation which we're being persuaded to take here seems to go something like: * in 2002, Minsky asks Epstein to

Specifically, the most charitable Minsky interpretation which we're being persuaded to take here seems to go something like: * in 2002, Minsky asks Epstein to host an AI conference for him on his island * while there, is apparently angry to discover that Epstein is prostituting girls * later in the 2000s, presumably discovers that Epstein has now been convicted of prostituting girls * in 2011, Minsky asks Epstein to host an AI conference for him on his island, again ...

nullc 7y ago
Where are you getting the idea that Minsky knew any of it was at Epstein's direction or that she was underage? The description by Benford was that at Epstein's event a young woman explicitly propositioned Minsky, he rejected her advance and was put off by the experience enough to remark to Benford about it. It might well be that there were additional details-- that the offer was "Hi, I'm 17 and my boss says I need to have sex with you", or what not, and I'd agree with you if that were the case-- but no one there has suggested this yet. Nothing obligates you to take the most charitable interpretation, but if you're going to claim you are doing so you ought to actually try. I'll grant you that it sounds like it should have been inescapable to Minsky that Epstein surrounded himself with women where there were huge age and power imbalances, to the point of it being obviously creepy. But the same could be said about, say, Richard Branson or Donald Trump. It's a big jump to go from your original allegation of Minsky engaging in statutory rape and prostitution to 'he had to know that this guy running events for him was at least a bit of a creep'. Maybe once investigations happen and disclosures are made it turns out that Minsky really did partake in those awful things but at this point they haven't even been factually alleged, much less persuasively demonstrated.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- pryce 7y ago
  I don't believe you responded cjbprime's point here at all. To make it 100% clear: the most sympathetic reading of Minksy's defense seems highly implausible: that he noticed and objected to prostituion of girls on Epsteins island in 2002 and subsequently, after Epstein's public conviction for trafficking girls and after encountering prostitution on Epstein's private island the first time, he still decided to host a different conference on Epstein's private island, this time in 2011. The reading of this accusation is: if we allow that Minsky decided prostitution on Epstein's private island objectionable the first time, we are forced to ask how objectionable that could really be given that: it can't have mattered to him enough to go to a different venue for his 2011 conference. Other relevant factors include how close Minsky and Epstein were. I believe Minsky's name and contact details appear in Epstein's black book; which certainly doesn't establish guilt, but should equally certainly justify at least some amount of suspicion.
  - joewee 7y ago
    He was never convicted of trafficking. And there are no public records that indicate attendees of his events were aware that women were being paid or forced to have sex with attendees. At least try to convict the dead man with facts and not innuendo.
    - pryce 7y ago
      I'm talking about Epstein's 2008 conviction after the in-all-likelihood corrupt plea deal, not his pending 2019 trial.
      - joewee 7y ago
        He wasn’t even charged with trafficking in 2008. Can’t believe I’m getting downvoted.
        pryce 7y ago
        What specifically were the charges laid in 2007, and which charge(s) was he convicted on as part of his 2008 plea agreement?
    - ryacko 7y ago
      The fact pattern for the plea agreement would lead one to conclude that Epstein could have been convicted for trafficking, and there certainly were rumors. It seems as if Epstein and his associates took everything rather lightly, which is something that the criminal justice system does not reward?
      - joewee 7y ago
        We are just now learning facts, many testimonies were sealed. Even the plea agreement was kept from the victims. Many victims are just now becoming aware of the existence of other complaints. Yes he did terrible things, but the full extent wasn’t clear to most people, including the media who continued to interview him after his conviction.
- DoctorOetker 7y ago
  If a bunch of underage girls were unexpectedly present, and obviously had nothing to contribute regarding artificial intelligence, then 2002 Minsky can only conclude Epstein (as the organizer) welcomed the underage girls, or else Epstein (as the organizer) would have thrown them out. It's on an island, it's not a small town music concert where girls can jump the fence to skip entrance fees... they would literally have to swim to the island in order to ... attend an AI conference? Everybody present must have known what the girls were for. How do you explain his experiencing and concluding this and repeat by asking Epstein for another conference?
  - DoctorOetker 7y ago
    to late to edit: "Everybody present must have known what the girls were for." => "Everybody present must have known what the girls were for, including Greg Benford." Did Greg Benford join more of Epstein's conferences afterwards? How is Greg Benford positive it is the same girl or the same event?
    - ryacko 7y ago
      You would only know what the girls are for if there were private rooms.
      - DoctorOetker 7y ago
        quoting Greg: >Typical Crap Journalism from NYT: >>“In a deposition unsealed this month, a woman testified that, as a teenager, she was told to have sex with Marvin Minsky, a pioneer in artificial intelligence, on Mr. Epstein’s island in the Virgin Islands. Mr. Minsky, who died in 2016 at 88, was a founder of the Media Lab in the mid-1980s.” >Note, never says what happened. If Marvin had done it, she would say so. I know; I was there. Minsky turned her down. Told me about it. SHE SAW US TALKING AND DIDN'T APPROACH ME. So irrespective if people were at times in private rooms, or at times in public spaces, people got opportunities to witness the presence of these girls. If she could see him, he could see her.
        7y ago

nullc 7y ago

Where are you getting the idea that Minsky knew any of it was at Epstein's direction or that she was underage? The description by Benford was that at Epstein's event a young woman explicitly propositioned Minsky, he rejected her advance and was put off by the experience enough to remark to Benford about it. It might well be that there were additional details-- that the offer was "Hi, I'm 17 and my boss says I need to have sex with you", or what not, and I'd agree with you if that were the case-- but no one there has suggested this yet. Nothing obligates you to take the most charitable interpretation, but if you're going to claim you are doing so you ought to actually try. I'll grant you that it sounds like it should have been inescapable to Minsky that Epstein surrounded himself with women where there were huge age and power imbalances, to the point of it being obviously creepy. But the same could be said about, say, Richard Branson or Donald Trump. It's a big jump to go from your original allegation of Minsky engaging in statutory rape and prostitution to 'he had to know that this guy running events for him was at least a bit of a creep'. Maybe once investigations happen and disclosures are made it turns out that Minsky really did partake in those awful things but at this point they haven't even been factually alleged, much less persuasively demonstrated.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
pryce 7y ago
I don't believe you responded cjbprime's point here at all. To make it 100% clear: the most sympathetic reading of Minksy's defense seems highly implausible: that he noticed and objected to prostituion of girls on Epsteins island in 2002 and subsequently, after Epstein's public conviction for trafficking girls and after encountering prostitution on Epstein's private island the first time, he still decided to host a different conference on Epstein's private island, this time in 2011. The reading of this accusation is: if we allow that Minsky decided prostitution on Epstein's private island objectionable the first time, we are forced to ask how objectionable that could really be given that: it can't have mattered to him enough to go to a different venue for his 2011 conference. Other relevant factors include how close Minsky and Epstein were. I believe Minsky's name and contact details appear in Epstein's black book; which certainly doesn't establish guilt, but should equally certainly justify at least some amount of suspicion.
- joewee 7y ago
  He was never convicted of trafficking. And there are no public records that indicate attendees of his events were aware that women were being paid or forced to have sex with attendees. At least try to convict the dead man with facts and not innuendo.
  - pryce 7y ago
    I'm talking about Epstein's 2008 conviction after the in-all-likelihood corrupt plea deal, not his pending 2019 trial.
    - joewee 7y ago
      He wasn’t even charged with trafficking in 2008. Can’t believe I’m getting downvoted.
      - pryce 7y ago
        What specifically were the charges laid in 2007, and which charge(s) was he convicted on as part of his 2008 plea agreement?
  - ryacko 7y ago
    The fact pattern for the plea agreement would lead one to conclude that Epstein could have been convicted for trafficking, and there certainly were rumors. It seems as if Epstein and his associates took everything rather lightly, which is something that the criminal justice system does not reward?
    - joewee 7y ago
      We are just now learning facts, many testimonies were sealed. Even the plea agreement was kept from the victims. Many victims are just now becoming aware of the existence of other complaints. Yes he did terrible things, but the full extent wasn’t clear to most people, including the media who continued to interview him after his conviction.
DoctorOetker 7y ago
If a bunch of underage girls were unexpectedly present, and obviously had nothing to contribute regarding artificial intelligence, then 2002 Minsky can only conclude Epstein (as the organizer) welcomed the underage girls, or else Epstein (as the organizer) would have thrown them out. It's on an island, it's not a small town music concert where girls can jump the fence to skip entrance fees... they would literally have to swim to the island in order to ... attend an AI conference? Everybody present must have known what the girls were for. How do you explain his experiencing and concluding this and repeat by asking Epstein for another conference?
- DoctorOetker 7y ago
  to late to edit: "Everybody present must have known what the girls were for." => "Everybody present must have known what the girls were for, including Greg Benford." Did Greg Benford join more of Epstein's conferences afterwards? How is Greg Benford positive it is the same girl or the same event?
  - ryacko 7y ago
    You would only know what the girls are for if there were private rooms.
    - DoctorOetker 7y ago
      quoting Greg: >Typical Crap Journalism from NYT: >>“In a deposition unsealed this month, a woman testified that, as a teenager, she was told to have sex with Marvin Minsky, a pioneer in artificial intelligence, on Mr. Epstein’s island in the Virgin Islands. Mr. Minsky, who died in 2016 at 88, was a founder of the Media Lab in the mid-1980s.” >Note, never says what happened. If Marvin had done it, she would say so. I know; I was there. Minsky turned her down. Told me about it. SHE SAW US TALKING AND DIDN'T APPROACH ME. So irrespective if people were at times in private rooms, or at times in public spaces, people got opportunities to witness the presence of these girls. If she could see him, he could see her.
      - 7y ago