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It Shouldn't Be This Hard to Responsibly Fly a Drone

114 points by gilad 7y ago

lachlan-sneff 7y ago
No wonder people break the rules when they're almost impossible to actually find.
- mark-r 7y ago
  Sounds like an opportunity for someone.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    maybe. it would be a lot of work to actually make the map accurate. you'd have to parse FAA airspace regulations and also federal, state, and local land use regulations. many of these might not ban drones explicitly, but be vague enough to possibly include drones. most people aren't going to be willing to pay a monthly fee for a service that tells them when/where they can fly their $200 drone.
  - walkerbrown 7y ago
    https://www.foreflight.com/ https://www.foreflight.com/ An early iOS success story, founded in 2007, and recently acquired by Boeing. They are the dominant software company in this niche, and are well positioned to add a “UAS tier” subscription in the future.
    - sverhagen 7y ago
      Companies focused on traditional aviation _could_ have jumped into the drone market, but somehow they haven't as much, so that it's now growing its own, specialized players, such as Kittyhawk, Skyward (which happens to be my employer) and many others. By the way, "UAS" is an unnecessarily gendered, self-important term that often doesn't even cover the subject. "Drone" has none of these problems, and it's what people "get".
- brokenmachine 7y ago
  No different to all the other laws a citizen is expected to obey. That's why there are tax agents and lawyers.
300bps 7y ago
The article uses three different apps to determine if it's OK to fly a drone in a particular area. When all three said he was good he then did extensive google searches to find things as random as press releases where someone is quoted as saying no drones allowed. If you used this level of due diligence on whether it's permissible to do anything, you'd find you're allowed to do nothing.
dariusj18 7y ago
I have first hand experience with this as well. Trying to figure out where to fly a drone is nearly impossible and just makes you want to fly anyway.
- jhart99 7y ago
  If you are having trouble with Airspace issues, like here in San Diego, you can get automated LAANC approval for temporary operations using Kittyhawk. This now works for recreational operators as well. If it is confusing local rules, then I totally understand....
  - sverhagen 7y ago
    LAANC gets you approval (or not) from the local Air Traffic Control of the Airspace you're trying to fly in (through the FAA). It does not do anything for all the non FAA-regulated areas, which is essentially what the article centered around. (I work for Skyward, who were the first USS that implemented LAANC.)
  - dariusj18 7y ago
    Yeah, it's local rules but also air space. I sit in the middle of like 5 airports or different sizes. airmap.io is helpful
Sinergy2 7y ago
Summary: The FAA's B4UFLY app only tells you whether you can _fly_ a drone somewhere. It doesn't tell you whether you can _take off, operate, and land_ from there because that is up to the property owner (whether private or government owned).
- gpm 7y ago
  Extended summary: Except over national parks. Over national parks you are allowed to fly, but not take off, operate, or land, and the FAA's app chooses to say you can't fly.
  - paulcole 7y ago
    What’s the difference between flying and operating? If the drone is over a national park, isn’t it “operating” over it? If you’re saying it’s permissible to stand outside the park and fly the drone in that sounds like the worst kind of hairsplitting to me and totally goes against the spirit of the rule. As the purpose of the regulation is due to “this new use has the potential to cause unacceptable impacts such as harming visitors, interfering with rescue operations, causing excessive noise, impacting viewsheds, and disturbing wildlife.” It seems like flying is what’s discouraged. https://www.nps.gov/policy/PolMemos/PM_14-05.htm https://www.nps.gov/policy/PolMemos/PM_14-05.htm
    - gpm 7y ago
      > If you’re saying it’s permissible to stand outside the park and fly the drone in ... Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. They want to ban flying over the park, but they don't have the legal power to do so. So instead they banned a bunch of other things (launching, landing, operating) to make flying over the park as inconvenient as possible. The hairsplitting that goes totally against the spirit of the rule, in my opinion, is not the hair splitting that lets you continue to fly over the park, but the hairsplitting that let them pass this regulation in the first place.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
esotericn 7y ago
I don't think that 'responsibly' is the correct term to use here. Legally, perhaps. The distinction is huge. Consider 'responsible drug use'. Is a 20 year old in a bar being irresponsible because they're in the US and not the UK? (ok, they probably are, but in a different way entirely...)
jaclaz 7y ago
I don't know, maybe the app is different, but if you go to: https://kittyhawk.io/b4ufly/ https://kittyhawk.io/b4ufly/ with a browser this is pretty clear: >State and Local Drone Rules >B4UFLY shows airspace rules provided by FAA data sources. >B4UFLY does not include local rules which may affect your planned operation – including your ability to land and take off your aircraft from certain areas. >While the FAA is the sole regulator of the National Airspace System and governs aircraft operations once airborne, entities such as cities, states, parks, and private landowners may regulate your ability to land and take off your aircraft from certain locations. Please make yourself aware of any local rules prior to your planned operation. So, I understand the frustration in not having a definite, single, authoritative source, but the critique about the tool being deceiving appears excessive.
yardie 7y ago
I fly recreationally with a Spark. There is a class B airport and a few helipads in my vicinity (urban city) and a large national park not far away. As long as there isn’t a TFR, rescue, or police operation not going in the immediate vicinity it’s not too difficult to let the ATC know you are flying. And if you use KittyHawk or AirMap you can submit a flightplan within the app. Launching is a different matter and the author is right. You can certainly fly in a lot of places but touching the ground can be tough. Public parks can be difficult and depends on the whim of whoever is on duty. One park I flew out for months then one day a ranger tells me there is no flying there. Nothing is posted and when I go to challenge this imaginary rule it only made the ranger angry. Now I fly from public easements: sidewalks, river fronts, jetties, high tide lines. There appears to be no central authority. And the people who would try and chase you off don’t think they have authority there (lots of waterfront is Corp of engineering)
henvic 7y ago
It's a shame you can't land or take off from a national park. Rules and advises about using it would be better than the current prohibition. I understand no one wants ten jerks flying their loud drones during summer time at Yosemite's most crowded areas... but this ignores the fact that you can drive 1h inside the park and find a place no one will be bothered. Regarding dealing with wild life, etc. the best thing would be advises on how to deal with such an encounter. You can fly a small plane near a whale, and no one will complain... but try to fly a small drone 100m away, and suddenly, you'll be shamed for scaring the huge mammal.
- nradov 7y ago
  NOAA prohibits low altitude flights over marine sanctuaries in order to protect whales and other animals. https://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/management/permits/aircraft.html https://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/management/permits/aircraft.htm...
  - imglorp 7y ago
    Well that's silly. A 1kg drone does nothing compared to Navy active sonar. edit - Not sure about the downvoters here, it's an established fact. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-military-sonar-kill/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-military-son...
    - jsjohnst 7y ago
      Whataboutism is rarely if ever a valid response.
      - leetcrew 7y ago
        when you compare two activities with roughly equal harm, whataboutism is unproductive. when you compare against an activity that causes orders of magnitude greater harm, it starts to be a valid point.
    - liability 7y ago
xondono 7y ago
Try Spain, the rules here are so ambiguous and bad written that no one knows if there is indeed any place in the country where you can fly drones
- ptsneves 7y ago
  Unless somehow you are part of the state.
rblatz 7y ago
It seems like the only solution will be for the FAA to flex it’s regulatory muscle on this, and become the sole authority on where you can fly a drone. Much like the FCC did with small satellite dish prohibitions. https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/installing-consumer-owned-antennas-and-satellite-dishes https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/installing-consumer-own...
- wolfgke 7y ago
  > It seems like the only solution will be for the FAA to flex it’s regulatory muscle on this, and become the sole authority on where you can fly a drone. Or prohibit the FAA to make such many confusing rules, i.e. flex the regulatory muscle on what the FAA is allowed to do.
  - rblatz 7y ago
    The FAA provides an app that tells you if the airspace above you is legal to fly in, and they even help you file flight plans with ATC if it’s required. It’s all the other parts of the government that tack on confusing rules, in an inconsistent and confusing manner.
mabbo 7y ago
I decided today to look into what I need to do to legally fly my drone in Canada. I've owned it over a year, but since new regulations came in I've been afraid to use it in case it was done incorrectly. What I've learned so far is that in order to legally fly my drone, I must: 1. Register the drone online for $5 (done, took 2 minutes). 2. Take an exam. They won't tell me what's going to be on the exam, but instead recommend I go to one of a long list of "drone schools" who have 'self declared' that they can teach what will be on the exam. The exam is $10, but who knows what these schools will charge or if they're even reputable. 3. Not be within 5 miles of most airports, or 1-3 miles from most helipads. (Didn't we convert to metric before I was born?). At least they've made a helpful tool with that https://nrc.canada.ca/en/drone-tool/ https://nrc.canada.ca/en/drone-tool/. The tool also helpfully shows that oh right, most lakes are used for sea-planes to take off and land so avoid those too. 4. Never fly within 100 ft (30m) horizontally of any 'bystander', ie: they aren't with me flying the drone. What this all boils down to is that there's no reason to own a drone anymore unless you own a very large property far from any populated areas. There is no place less than a 20-30 minute drive away from my home that I can even legally fly it. Even then, any park or place I might legally go to without trespassing will have too many people to be more than 30m from anyone else. Even the less-populated parks and recreation areas- how do I even tell if there's someone 29m away from me through a forest or behind something? All the while: for what benefit? Who has been seriously injured in Canada by drone accidents?
- losteric 7y ago
  1/2: ensure drone operators are familiar with the other rules. imo licensing should be required to purchase a drone with much stronger punishments against unlicensed operators, otherwise idiot operators will result in further regulations on use. 3. obviously necessary 4. Drones are a public nuisance. The sound, having a dot just floating in view, zipping around - it's annoying and even scary to bystanders. I own and fly several drones, but I was relieved when America started banning drones from wilderness areas, national parks, and many state/city parks. The serenity of those parks is far more valuable than private drone photography / selfies.
  - derefr 7y ago
velox_io 7y ago
This is a tricky one; maintaining people's safety/ privacy while giving drone pilots 'freedom' is quite a balance. For instance, in the UK you must maintain a physical line of sight with the drone at all times, this makes flying winged craft virtually pointless. Right now the geo-fencing of where you can fly is very rigid, with no provisions for altitude and distance, this could be improved to include glide-paths near airports for instance. It could also be tiered depending on the pilot's qualifications (similar to scuba diving) and if the drone is fitted with a transponder, or if they have submitted a flight plan. With these, there's no reason a drone pilot can't have similar freedom as a helicopter pilot. I think most of these problems stem from technology being ahead of legislation, as always.
- liability 7y ago
  > in the UK you must maintain a physical line of sight with the drone at all times, this makes flying winged craft virtually pointless. Why do you say that? I've flown line-of-sight fixed wing RC airplanes before and it was loads of fun.
lota-putty 7y ago
OT: Why don't most quad-copters/toy-drones come with blade protection that also duct* air flow for better thrust? * tighter clearances https://img.eachine.com/eachine/products/original/201707/1499137982_24.jpg https://img.eachine.com/eachine/products/original/201707/149...
- snovv_crash 7y ago
  Because during forward flight the inlet of the duct leads to turbulence on and shadowing of the blades, drastically reducing their efficiency.
crankylinuxuser 7y ago
So, long story short, run the app and then blame the FAA for a myriad bullshit rules 5 levels deep? In reality perhaps what we really need is a queryable API for state and local laws? I know DC has their primary legal codex as a GitHub repo. Surely they could provide links where a state law or fed law is modified ? With this many laws, and bureaucracy creating laws within laws with no oversight, how can we mere humans be expected to follow said laws?
evancox100 7y ago
Wherein the author discovers we have a federal system of government with diffuse responsibilities such that no one group has any clue what the other groups are doing.
ajross 7y ago
This is for sure going to be unpopular, but folks here need to hear it: The reason for the byzantine complexity about drone regulation isn't that some Big Government is injecting its ham-fisted regulatory appendages into a problem that it doesn't understand. It's that, for the most part, no one wants your drones in the air at all. People don't like these things. They're noisy. They're scary. Their operators tend to be pushy jerks more often than not. They just aren't what a median voter wants to see on a nice sunny afternoon in the park or trail or whatever. And those voters governments, at all levels, are responding to that desire. Basically: drone operators are the mid-life-nerd-crisis version of skate punks. No one wants them hanging around either, and skateboarding regulation is at least as complicated as drone rules.
- LocalH 7y ago
  So basically, NIMBY.
  - sangerSCB 7y ago
    Yes, exactly. Even people that like drones don't want a drone hanging out over their back yard.
    - rhacker 7y ago
      I'm also guessing a large population of drone owners first reaction to seeing someone else flying one was: They're going to lose that thing and it's going to junk up the forest. After buying the done: Let's go fly this in the forest!
    - madamelic 7y ago
      > Even people that like drones don't want a drone hanging out over their back yard. Sounds like that is a person problem, not a drone problem. That hypothetical person is a creep, drone or no drone.
  - greenhatman 7y ago
    I just had a neighbour fly their drone outside my window. It's really noisy and kind of causes anxiety. So you can call it what you want, but I don't want it near me. I'll give them a pass this once. Maybe it's new and they just wanted to try it out. But I'm definitely going to take steps to remove it if I hear it again.
emilfihlman 7y ago
All this fight against drones is purely TSA level fearmongering and security theatre.
koboll 7y ago
Here's a solution: Congress should pass a law that says state and local jurisdictions must register their anti-drone laws with the FAA in a formal way by January 1, 20XX otherwise they are legally unenforceable. Then there's a guarantee that what the app gives is valid information, and it's incumbent on local governments to make sure of that, and drone users aren't liable if they don't.
- ryeights 7y ago
  Does Congress have the power to do this? Genuine question. What enumerated power would this fall under?
  - macintux 7y ago
    Congress gets away with a lot in the name of interstate commerce and the general welfare, but I think the best they could do in this instance is threaten to withhold federal funds in the absence of such registration.
  - koboll 7y ago
    Commerce Clause. Although it certainly might be overturned by an unfriendly Supreme Court, it's sort of a gray area. A parallel might be drawn to the concealed carry reciprocity act (https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/69 https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/69) currently pending in Congress, in the sense that it would also prevent state and local jurisdictions from enforcing local regulations against individuals who met some Congressional standard (in that case, that they were registered for concealed carry in their place of residence). Constitutional scholars don't have a firm answer for that bill's constitutionality because it's sort of a unique proposed application of Commerce Clause power.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
oxplot 7y ago
Airmap app has been mentioned here and I use it for every flight. For my area, Sydney, it covers many local regulations as well as the usual air restricted areas such as airports. It also let's you submit flight plans which before available to authorities. It would be great if the no fly zones could be uploaded to the drone itself so it would simply refuse to take off in those areas for instance.
- markdown 7y ago
  > It would be great if the no fly zones could be uploaded to the drone itself so it would simply refuse to take off in those areas for instance. DJI drones won't fly in no-fly zones.
SkyPuncher 7y ago
I have a very hard time taking most of the drone pilot complaining seriously. RC aircraft have been around for ages and subject to nearly all of the same regulations as modern drones. The problem I see is drone manufactures marketed their products such that "they're just another toy". It's led to drone operators acting like they're entitled to fly wherever they want. Combine that with pressure to capture an incredible shot for Insta/Pinterest/etc, and you get people that have completely disregarded for long standing rules designed to keep people safe. The reality is drones are able to operate in vastly more areas than RC aircraft have in the past. Clearance from bystanders/structures, height restrictions, airport proximity, etc have all been things RC operators have dealt with for ages. Problem is people don't just want to fly a drone, they want to operate them in dangerous manners and in places they really shouldn't.
- macintux 7y ago
  The marketing point reminds me of my disdain for Rugged Radios, who flagrantly markets their radios without any hint that licensing is required. They won’t even indicate which bands are used by their radios, much less warn people that licenses are necessary. Yes, people should be aware of their obligations, but the companies selling the products bear some of the responsibility for educating the customers, and absolutely should not be free to actively hide that information.
FabHK 7y ago
I don't know. As a pilot of a small plane, I'd say you need to spend at least an hour to plan a flight, if not more. Familiarise yourself with departure and arrival airport and alternates, the route, weather and airspace along the route (you do not want to wander into Class B or or restricted airspace by accident), TFRs (temporary flight restrictions), NOTAMs (notices to airmen), and more. If you're very familiar with a route, it might be less, and if it's a totally new area/route for you, it might be more. If you pilot a plane, and you make a mistake, your own life is on the line. When you fly a drone, you still constitute a danger to other aircraft and the people in it, or people on the ground. Why should you be subject to fewer rules, just because you are not aboard the aircraft, and thus not at risk? Imagine remote controlled cars on the road. Should we allow some drunk kids without license on their computer at home to control cars on the road (and endanger everyone else), just because they are not in danger? Of course not. So, my sympathy for people clamouring for less restricted drone flights is limited. Having said that, there are tools that facilitate planning a flight (in a safe and lawful manner), and having something similar for drones would obviously be great.
- chronial 7y ago
  > When you fly a drone, you still constitute a danger to other aircraft and the people in it, or people on the ground. Why should you be subject to fewer rules, just because you are not aboard the aircraft, and thus not at risk? Because a drone is a lot smaller and thus constitutes a heavily reduced risk. > Imagine remote controlled cars on the road. Should we allow some drunk kids without license on their computer at home to control cars on the road (and endanger everyone else), just because they are not in danger? Of course not. So, to borrow your imagery here: A bicycle is a lot less risky to traffic and people than a car is and thus you are allow to drive it without a license and punishments for violations are in general lower than for cars.
  - mc32 7y ago
    Keep in mind a flock of Canada geese can force down airliners. Can the impact break a windshield? Can it deform a prop? Maybe get stuck in the air intake? Will it cause pilot to change course unnecessarily?
cozzyd 7y ago
Yeah, it'd be fun to have a drone, but not sure there's anywhere in Chicago I can legally fly it. Probably need a "drone park" like we have skate parks...
ridaj 7y ago
> At the absolute minimum, the B4UFLY app should not tell users that they’re “good to go” unless they are flying from an area where drone use is explicitly permitted, like national forests. Even then... I thought I saw a sign asking people not to do that during wildfires so as not to interfere with firefighting operations. Do these things make it into some kind of temporary no-fly zone for drones?
foobarbecue 7y ago
In sum: FAA's B4UFLY app database of prohibited sites is incomplete.
tomohawk 7y ago
It would be a lot easier if the law clearly spelled out who owns the air, and if there was some way to push back on the FAA's unilateral decision making processes. Below this altitude, you own it. Above this altitude, government owns it. Is it OK for Amazon to make a drone superhighway 10 feet above my house? In our state, even the governor has tried to get the FAA to stop routing jumbo jets so that they're causing noise problems several miles from the airport to no avail. Jets regularly pass by at 2000 feet or so even though the airport is several miles away. They didn't used to do this. When a plane or drone flies over my house at low altitude, can I charge them a toll? How high up do I own? The FAA seems to assume I own nothing at all an inch above my land.
superqd 7y ago
Yeah, it all depends. I certainly don't want people buzzing me with their drone when I'm out enjoying nature with my kids. As a result, when I take my drone out, I am very certain to be far from others, and not to bug them. By default, in our state, drones are not permitted in any state park, however I have flown in a state park in our state by getting permission two times (one told me no the first time, then said ok when I asked if they could make an exception since I'm FAA certified, fly very responsibly, etc). There seems to be a need for an I'm-not-a-douche-bag certification that can be used to make exceptions for folks like myself. I try hard not just to be responsible, but also not be a douche bag with my drone.

114 points by gilad 7y ago

lachlan-sneff 7y ago

No wonder people break the rules when they're almost impossible to actually find.

mark-r 7y ago
Sounds like an opportunity for someone.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  maybe. it would be a lot of work to actually make the map accurate. you'd have to parse FAA airspace regulations and also federal, state, and local land use regulations. many of these might not ban drones explicitly, but be vague enough to possibly include drones. most people aren't going to be willing to pay a monthly fee for a service that tells them when/where they can fly their $200 drone.
- walkerbrown 7y ago
  https://www.foreflight.com/ https://www.foreflight.com/ An early iOS success story, founded in 2007, and recently acquired by Boeing. They are the dominant software company in this niche, and are well positioned to add a “UAS tier” subscription in the future.
  - sverhagen 7y ago
    Companies focused on traditional aviation _could_ have jumped into the drone market, but somehow they haven't as much, so that it's now growing its own, specialized players, such as Kittyhawk, Skyward (which happens to be my employer) and many others. By the way, "UAS" is an unnecessarily gendered, self-important term that often doesn't even cover the subject. "Drone" has none of these problems, and it's what people "get".
brokenmachine 7y ago
No different to all the other laws a citizen is expected to obey. That's why there are tax agents and lawyers.

300bps 7y ago

The article uses three different apps to determine if it's OK to fly a drone in a particular area. When all three said he was good he then did extensive google searches to find things as random as press releases where someone is quoted as saying no drones allowed. If you used this level of due diligence on whether it's permissible to do anything, you'd find you're allowed to do nothing.

dariusj18 7y ago

I have first hand experience with this as well. Trying to figure out where to fly a drone is nearly impossible and just makes you want to fly anyway.

jhart99 7y ago
If you are having trouble with Airspace issues, like here in San Diego, you can get automated LAANC approval for temporary operations using Kittyhawk. This now works for recreational operators as well. If it is confusing local rules, then I totally understand....
- sverhagen 7y ago
  LAANC gets you approval (or not) from the local Air Traffic Control of the Airspace you're trying to fly in (through the FAA). It does not do anything for all the non FAA-regulated areas, which is essentially what the article centered around. (I work for Skyward, who were the first USS that implemented LAANC.)
- dariusj18 7y ago
  Yeah, it's local rules but also air space. I sit in the middle of like 5 airports or different sizes. airmap.io is helpful

Sinergy2 7y ago

Summary: The FAA's B4UFLY app only tells you whether you can _fly_ a drone somewhere. It doesn't tell you whether you can _take off, operate, and land_ from there because that is up to the property owner (whether private or government owned).

gpm 7y ago
Extended summary: Except over national parks. Over national parks you are allowed to fly, but not take off, operate, or land, and the FAA's app chooses to say you can't fly.
- paulcole 7y ago
  What’s the difference between flying and operating? If the drone is over a national park, isn’t it “operating” over it? If you’re saying it’s permissible to stand outside the park and fly the drone in that sounds like the worst kind of hairsplitting to me and totally goes against the spirit of the rule. As the purpose of the regulation is due to “this new use has the potential to cause unacceptable impacts such as harming visitors, interfering with rescue operations, causing excessive noise, impacting viewsheds, and disturbing wildlife.” It seems like flying is what’s discouraged. https://www.nps.gov/policy/PolMemos/PM_14-05.htm https://www.nps.gov/policy/PolMemos/PM_14-05.htm
  - gpm 7y ago
    > If you’re saying it’s permissible to stand outside the park and fly the drone in ... Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. They want to ban flying over the park, but they don't have the legal power to do so. So instead they banned a bunch of other things (launching, landing, operating) to make flying over the park as inconvenient as possible. The hairsplitting that goes totally against the spirit of the rule, in my opinion, is not the hair splitting that lets you continue to fly over the park, but the hairsplitting that let them pass this regulation in the first place.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]

esotericn 7y ago

I don't think that 'responsibly' is the correct term to use here. Legally, perhaps. The distinction is huge. Consider 'responsible drug use'. Is a 20 year old in a bar being irresponsible because they're in the US and not the UK? (ok, they probably are, but in a different way entirely...)

jaclaz 7y ago

I don't know, maybe the app is different, but if you go to: https://kittyhawk.io/b4ufly/ https://kittyhawk.io/b4ufly/ with a browser this is pretty clear: >State and Local Drone Rules >B4UFLY shows airspace rules provided by FAA data sources. >B4UFLY does not include local rules which may affect your planned operation – including your ability to land and take off your aircraft from certain areas. >While the FAA is the sole regulator of the National Airspace System and governs aircraft operations once airborne, entities such as cities, states, parks, and private landowners may regulate your ability to land and take off your aircraft from certain locations. Please make yourself aware of any local rules prior to your planned operation. So, I understand the frustration in not having a definite, single, authoritative source, but the critique about the tool being deceiving appears excessive.

yardie 7y ago

I fly recreationally with a Spark. There is a class B airport and a few helipads in my vicinity (urban city) and a large national park not far away. As long as there isn’t a TFR, rescue, or police operation not going in the immediate vicinity it’s not too difficult to let the ATC know you are flying. And if you use KittyHawk or AirMap you can submit a flightplan within the app. Launching is a different matter and the author is right. You can certainly fly in a lot of places but touching the ground can be tough. Public parks can be difficult and depends on the whim of whoever is on duty. One park I flew out for months then one day a ranger tells me there is no flying there. Nothing is posted and when I go to challenge this imaginary rule it only made the ranger angry. Now I fly from public easements: sidewalks, river fronts, jetties, high tide lines. There appears to be no central authority. And the people who would try and chase you off don’t think they have authority there (lots of waterfront is Corp of engineering)

henvic 7y ago

It's a shame you can't land or take off from a national park. Rules and advises about using it would be better than the current prohibition. I understand no one wants ten jerks flying their loud drones during summer time at Yosemite's most crowded areas... but this ignores the fact that you can drive 1h inside the park and find a place no one will be bothered. Regarding dealing with wild life, etc. the best thing would be advises on how to deal with such an encounter. You can fly a small plane near a whale, and no one will complain... but try to fly a small drone 100m away, and suddenly, you'll be shamed for scaring the huge mammal.

nradov 7y ago
NOAA prohibits low altitude flights over marine sanctuaries in order to protect whales and other animals. https://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/management/permits/aircraft.html https://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/management/permits/aircraft.htm...
- imglorp 7y ago
  Well that's silly. A 1kg drone does nothing compared to Navy active sonar. edit - Not sure about the downvoters here, it's an established fact. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-military-sonar-kill/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-military-son...
  - jsjohnst 7y ago
    Whataboutism is rarely if ever a valid response.
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      when you compare two activities with roughly equal harm, whataboutism is unproductive. when you compare against an activity that causes orders of magnitude greater harm, it starts to be a valid point.
  - liability 7y ago

xondono 7y ago

Try Spain, the rules here are so ambiguous and bad written that no one knows if there is indeed any place in the country where you can fly drones

ptsneves 7y ago
Unless somehow you are part of the state.

rblatz 7y ago

It seems like the only solution will be for the FAA to flex it’s regulatory muscle on this, and become the sole authority on where you can fly a drone. Much like the FCC did with small satellite dish prohibitions. https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/installing-consumer-owned-antennas-and-satellite-dishes https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/installing-consumer-own...

wolfgke 7y ago
> It seems like the only solution will be for the FAA to flex it’s regulatory muscle on this, and become the sole authority on where you can fly a drone. Or prohibit the FAA to make such many confusing rules, i.e. flex the regulatory muscle on what the FAA is allowed to do.
- rblatz 7y ago
  The FAA provides an app that tells you if the airspace above you is legal to fly in, and they even help you file flight plans with ATC if it’s required. It’s all the other parts of the government that tack on confusing rules, in an inconsistent and confusing manner.

mabbo 7y ago

I decided today to look into what I need to do to legally fly my drone in Canada. I've owned it over a year, but since new regulations came in I've been afraid to use it in case it was done incorrectly. What I've learned so far is that in order to legally fly my drone, I must: 1. Register the drone online for $5 (done, took 2 minutes). 2. Take an exam. They won't tell me what's going to be on the exam, but instead recommend I go to one of a long list of "drone schools" who have 'self declared' that they can teach what will be on the exam. The exam is $10, but who knows what these schools will charge or if they're even reputable. 3. Not be within 5 miles of most airports, or 1-3 miles from most helipads. (Didn't we convert to metric before I was born?). At least they've made a helpful tool with that https://nrc.canada.ca/en/drone-tool/ https://nrc.canada.ca/en/drone-tool/. The tool also helpfully shows that oh right, most lakes are used for sea-planes to take off and land so avoid those too. 4. Never fly within 100 ft (30m) horizontally of any 'bystander', ie: they aren't with me flying the drone. What this all boils down to is that there's no reason to own a drone anymore unless you own a very large property far from any populated areas. There is no place less than a 20-30 minute drive away from my home that I can even legally fly it. Even then, any park or place I might legally go to without trespassing will have too many people to be more than 30m from anyone else. Even the less-populated parks and recreation areas- how do I even tell if there's someone 29m away from me through a forest or behind something? All the while: for what benefit? Who has been seriously injured in Canada by drone accidents?

losteric 7y ago
1/2: ensure drone operators are familiar with the other rules. imo licensing should be required to purchase a drone with much stronger punishments against unlicensed operators, otherwise idiot operators will result in further regulations on use. 3. obviously necessary 4. Drones are a public nuisance. The sound, having a dot just floating in view, zipping around - it's annoying and even scary to bystanders. I own and fly several drones, but I was relieved when America started banning drones from wilderness areas, national parks, and many state/city parks. The serenity of those parks is far more valuable than private drone photography / selfies.
- derefr 7y ago

velox_io 7y ago

This is a tricky one; maintaining people's safety/ privacy while giving drone pilots 'freedom' is quite a balance. For instance, in the UK you must maintain a physical line of sight with the drone at all times, this makes flying winged craft virtually pointless. Right now the geo-fencing of where you can fly is very rigid, with no provisions for altitude and distance, this could be improved to include glide-paths near airports for instance. It could also be tiered depending on the pilot's qualifications (similar to scuba diving) and if the drone is fitted with a transponder, or if they have submitted a flight plan. With these, there's no reason a drone pilot can't have similar freedom as a helicopter pilot. I think most of these problems stem from technology being ahead of legislation, as always.

liability 7y ago
> in the UK you must maintain a physical line of sight with the drone at all times, this makes flying winged craft virtually pointless. Why do you say that? I've flown line-of-sight fixed wing RC airplanes before and it was loads of fun.

lota-putty 7y ago

OT: Why don't most quad-copters/toy-drones come with blade protection that also duct* air flow for better thrust? * tighter clearances https://img.eachine.com/eachine/products/original/201707/1499137982_24.jpg https://img.eachine.com/eachine/products/original/201707/149...

snovv_crash 7y ago
Because during forward flight the inlet of the duct leads to turbulence on and shadowing of the blades, drastically reducing their efficiency.

crankylinuxuser 7y ago

So, long story short, run the app and then blame the FAA for a myriad bullshit rules 5 levels deep? In reality perhaps what we really need is a queryable API for state and local laws? I know DC has their primary legal codex as a GitHub repo. Surely they could provide links where a state law or fed law is modified ? With this many laws, and bureaucracy creating laws within laws with no oversight, how can we mere humans be expected to follow said laws?

evancox100 7y ago

Wherein the author discovers we have a federal system of government with diffuse responsibilities such that no one group has any clue what the other groups are doing.

ajross 7y ago

This is for sure going to be unpopular, but folks here need to hear it: The reason for the byzantine complexity about drone regulation isn't that some Big Government is injecting its ham-fisted regulatory appendages into a problem that it doesn't understand. It's that, for the most part, no one wants your drones in the air at all. People don't like these things. They're noisy. They're scary. Their operators tend to be pushy jerks more often than not. They just aren't what a median voter wants to see on a nice sunny afternoon in the park or trail or whatever. And those voters governments, at all levels, are responding to that desire. Basically: drone operators are the mid-life-nerd-crisis version of skate punks. No one wants them hanging around either, and skateboarding regulation is at least as complicated as drone rules.

LocalH 7y ago
So basically, NIMBY.
- sangerSCB 7y ago
  Yes, exactly. Even people that like drones don't want a drone hanging out over their back yard.
  - rhacker 7y ago
    I'm also guessing a large population of drone owners first reaction to seeing someone else flying one was: They're going to lose that thing and it's going to junk up the forest. After buying the done: Let's go fly this in the forest!
  - madamelic 7y ago
    > Even people that like drones don't want a drone hanging out over their back yard. Sounds like that is a person problem, not a drone problem. That hypothetical person is a creep, drone or no drone.
- greenhatman 7y ago
  I just had a neighbour fly their drone outside my window. It's really noisy and kind of causes anxiety. So you can call it what you want, but I don't want it near me. I'll give them a pass this once. Maybe it's new and they just wanted to try it out. But I'm definitely going to take steps to remove it if I hear it again.

emilfihlman 7y ago

All this fight against drones is purely TSA level fearmongering and security theatre.

koboll 7y ago

Here's a solution: Congress should pass a law that says state and local jurisdictions must register their anti-drone laws with the FAA in a formal way by January 1, 20XX otherwise they are legally unenforceable. Then there's a guarantee that what the app gives is valid information, and it's incumbent on local governments to make sure of that, and drone users aren't liable if they don't.

ryeights 7y ago
Does Congress have the power to do this? Genuine question. What enumerated power would this fall under?
- macintux 7y ago
  Congress gets away with a lot in the name of interstate commerce and the general welfare, but I think the best they could do in this instance is threaten to withhold federal funds in the absence of such registration.
- koboll 7y ago
  Commerce Clause. Although it certainly might be overturned by an unfriendly Supreme Court, it's sort of a gray area. A parallel might be drawn to the concealed carry reciprocity act (https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/69 https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/69) currently pending in Congress, in the sense that it would also prevent state and local jurisdictions from enforcing local regulations against individuals who met some Congressional standard (in that case, that they were registered for concealed carry in their place of residence). Constitutional scholars don't have a firm answer for that bill's constitutionality because it's sort of a unique proposed application of Commerce Clause power.
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oxplot 7y ago

Airmap app has been mentioned here and I use it for every flight. For my area, Sydney, it covers many local regulations as well as the usual air restricted areas such as airports. It also let's you submit flight plans which before available to authorities. It would be great if the no fly zones could be uploaded to the drone itself so it would simply refuse to take off in those areas for instance.

markdown 7y ago
> It would be great if the no fly zones could be uploaded to the drone itself so it would simply refuse to take off in those areas for instance. DJI drones won't fly in no-fly zones.

SkyPuncher 7y ago

I have a very hard time taking most of the drone pilot complaining seriously. RC aircraft have been around for ages and subject to nearly all of the same regulations as modern drones. The problem I see is drone manufactures marketed their products such that "they're just another toy". It's led to drone operators acting like they're entitled to fly wherever they want. Combine that with pressure to capture an incredible shot for Insta/Pinterest/etc, and you get people that have completely disregarded for long standing rules designed to keep people safe. The reality is drones are able to operate in vastly more areas than RC aircraft have in the past. Clearance from bystanders/structures, height restrictions, airport proximity, etc have all been things RC operators have dealt with for ages. Problem is people don't just want to fly a drone, they want to operate them in dangerous manners and in places they really shouldn't.

macintux 7y ago
The marketing point reminds me of my disdain for Rugged Radios, who flagrantly markets their radios without any hint that licensing is required. They won’t even indicate which bands are used by their radios, much less warn people that licenses are necessary. Yes, people should be aware of their obligations, but the companies selling the products bear some of the responsibility for educating the customers, and absolutely should not be free to actively hide that information.

FabHK 7y ago

I don't know. As a pilot of a small plane, I'd say you need to spend at least an hour to plan a flight, if not more. Familiarise yourself with departure and arrival airport and alternates, the route, weather and airspace along the route (you do not want to wander into Class B or or restricted airspace by accident), TFRs (temporary flight restrictions), NOTAMs (notices to airmen), and more. If you're very familiar with a route, it might be less, and if it's a totally new area/route for you, it might be more. If you pilot a plane, and you make a mistake, your own life is on the line. When you fly a drone, you still constitute a danger to other aircraft and the people in it, or people on the ground. Why should you be subject to fewer rules, just because you are not aboard the aircraft, and thus not at risk? Imagine remote controlled cars on the road. Should we allow some drunk kids without license on their computer at home to control cars on the road (and endanger everyone else), just because they are not in danger? Of course not. So, my sympathy for people clamouring for less restricted drone flights is limited. Having said that, there are tools that facilitate planning a flight (in a safe and lawful manner), and having something similar for drones would obviously be great.

chronial 7y ago
> When you fly a drone, you still constitute a danger to other aircraft and the people in it, or people on the ground. Why should you be subject to fewer rules, just because you are not aboard the aircraft, and thus not at risk? Because a drone is a lot smaller and thus constitutes a heavily reduced risk. > Imagine remote controlled cars on the road. Should we allow some drunk kids without license on their computer at home to control cars on the road (and endanger everyone else), just because they are not in danger? Of course not. So, to borrow your imagery here: A bicycle is a lot less risky to traffic and people than a car is and thus you are allow to drive it without a license and punishments for violations are in general lower than for cars.
- mc32 7y ago
  Keep in mind a flock of Canada geese can force down airliners. Can the impact break a windshield? Can it deform a prop? Maybe get stuck in the air intake? Will it cause pilot to change course unnecessarily?

cozzyd 7y ago

Yeah, it'd be fun to have a drone, but not sure there's anywhere in Chicago I can legally fly it. Probably need a "drone park" like we have skate parks...

ridaj 7y ago

> At the absolute minimum, the B4UFLY app should not tell users that they’re “good to go” unless they are flying from an area where drone use is explicitly permitted, like national forests. Even then... I thought I saw a sign asking people not to do that during wildfires so as not to interfere with firefighting operations. Do these things make it into some kind of temporary no-fly zone for drones?

foobarbecue 7y ago

In sum: FAA's B4UFLY app database of prohibited sites is incomplete.

tomohawk 7y ago

It would be a lot easier if the law clearly spelled out who owns the air, and if there was some way to push back on the FAA's unilateral decision making processes. Below this altitude, you own it. Above this altitude, government owns it. Is it OK for Amazon to make a drone superhighway 10 feet above my house? In our state, even the governor has tried to get the FAA to stop routing jumbo jets so that they're causing noise problems several miles from the airport to no avail. Jets regularly pass by at 2000 feet or so even though the airport is several miles away. They didn't used to do this. When a plane or drone flies over my house at low altitude, can I charge them a toll? How high up do I own? The FAA seems to assume I own nothing at all an inch above my land.

superqd 7y ago

Yeah, it all depends. I certainly don't want people buzzing me with their drone when I'm out enjoying nature with my kids. As a result, when I take my drone out, I am very certain to be far from others, and not to bug them. By default, in our state, drones are not permitted in any state park, however I have flown in a state park in our state by getting permission two times (one told me no the first time, then said ok when I asked if they could make an exception since I'm FAA certified, fly very responsibly, etc). There seems to be a need for an I'm-not-a-douche-bag certification that can be used to make exceptions for folks like myself. I try hard not just to be responsible, but also not be a douche bag with my drone.