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No. Not at all. Picking the apex, at what speed to approach the turn, how hard to brake, when to accelerate out and how much, knowing the limits of traction o

No. Not at all. Picking the apex, at what speed to approach the turn, how hard to brake, when to accelerate out and how much, knowing the limits of traction of what your driving, and I’m sure much more. It’s very involved, and requires thought and decisions on top of reaction speed.

sandworm101 7y ago
>> how hard to brake Easy answer: Always as much braking as possible. There is no light braking in racing. You want to maintain full speed until you absolutely have to slow down. You brake as late as possible. The skill is not in judging how hard to brake, but when to begin braking. Watch F1 with the telemetry on the screen. Throttle goes up and down in corners. Braking is always either full-on or nothing.
- Shorel 7y ago
  >> Easy answer: Always as much braking as possible. Too simplified. It requires a precise definition of 'as much as possible'. Measured answer: You have to prevent the wheels to lock, so always brake just an infinitesimal bit below this locking point: now you have invented ABS brakes. If it was just a matter of 'slam your foot to the metal', cars would never have needed ABS brakes.
- stjohnswarts 7y ago
  I don't believe that. If you slam on the brakes hard every time you need to slow down a bit you're going to go into a tail spin and die especially at f1 speeds.
  - dpark 7y ago
    If you’re braking gently the F1 car behind you will absolutely pass you immediately and then brake hard to make the corner. If you lose control under hard braking it means you chose to brake at the wrong point.
  - sandworm101 7y ago
    >> every time you need to slow down a bit In racing that is not a thing. There is never a situation where a car needs to "slow down a bit". The goal is to stay as fast as possible as much as possible. That means either going flat out (either in speed or cornering) or be under maximum braking (to minimize time at lower speeds). If you are ever "a bit" too fast then you have made a mistake. You began braking too late. On the next lap you will alter your braking point, not adjust your braking pressure. >> tail spin Also not a thing under braking. "Tail spins", or to use the correct term oversteer occur when a rwd car applies too much power (or some 4wd). The back end slips. When you brake too hard entering a corner the front wheels will depart first, causing an understeer rather than a tailspin. The car will push forwards and fail to turn.
  - iamaelephant 7y ago
    Maybe if you're not into motorsport you should not comment on it. You're wrong. Especially in highly aero dependent cars like F1 cars, where you can achieve maximum braking pressure at top speed due to the down force. The parent commenter is also wrong, brakes in F1 cars are certainly not either full on or full off, the drivers trail brake into corners so although the driver begins braking at maximum force, they slowly release the brake as the car enters the corner and starts turning.
    - kube-system 7y ago
      Yeah, there’s a lot of misinformation all around here. Not to mention that production cars have a lot different dynamics than an f1 car. They’re designed with very different chassis goals in mind, so they’re going to exhibition very different behaviors around a track. I have a few days experience on track with an SCCA instructor. Braking late and at maximum deceleration is the basic idea, but braking can do lots of things and be used lots of ways. A light application of braking is sometimes important, not to slow the vehicle, but just to transfer weight to the front wheels before a turn. Also, it is possible to use light braking to induce some rotation mid-turn, especially in an FWD vehicle like a Leaf that will likely exhibit significant understeer. Driving a car around a real track is humbling for the first time. The first event I was at, some instructor was taking a few laps with his personal Chevy Volt, and he was effortlessly passing students in a variety of high dollar sports cars.
- chrismcb 7y ago
  Sure, it is full on or nothing. It isn't so much how hard to brake, but how much.
- GhostVII 7y ago
  Well you usually want to do trail braking where you smoothly let off on the brakes as you start to turn, and then slowly apply the throttle. At least if you are racing with relatively normal cars.
  - sandworm101 7y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpYU_6pz-44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpYU_6pz-44 Watch the brake and throttle indicators. He is off the brakes long before committing to the corner. And whenever he is on the brakes it is total. If you gradually move from braking to throttle you will take the turn too sharply. You set the speed before the corner so that during the corner the tires work only on turning. Then you apply the throttle as much as possible on the way out. Braking during the first half of a turn is done for some specific turn geometry (decreasing radius turns, or a car with higher acceleration than braking ability) but is generally a bad habit.
    - Shorel 7y ago
      Watch this video, particularly the brake pressure in the last half of the lap: https://youtu.be/eloZhdIyyv0?t=69 https://youtu.be/eloZhdIyyv0?t=69 It is true that the braking plot-line looks a bit like an step function, but it never is, there's a huge difference between taking half a second to press the brake and it being machine-like and taking just some milliseconds. It is even more pronounced when releasing the brake pedal. There you can always see a slope.
      - sandworm101 7y ago
        Ya, slope, not half-way braking. Applying or releasing a pedal smoothly is different than braking at 50%. The pedal always moves quickly between 0 and 100. You don't see the driver braking into some corners at 50% and others at 75%. If the driver only pushes the pedal to 50% and then backs off, that is almost certainly a mistake. Throttle is variable. Braking is all-or-nothing.
        7y ago
- missosoup 7y ago
  HN is slowly becoming like reddit, people are downvoting a factually correct comment because they disagree. Because they don't know the topic they're disagreeing about.
  - 14 7y ago
    When ever I down vote a person I always try and leave a comment as to why I disagree. I really think this should be the norm of HN. Justify your answer. Otherwise I am left wondering if the people down voting are simply paid trolls trying to persuade public opinion.
    - missosoup 7y ago
      Downvotes aren't to signal 'I disagree'. They're supposed to signal 'this comment is noise/doesn't contribute to discussion'.
  - winrid 7y ago
    It's not correct is the issue.
- winrid 7y ago
  Nope. You use the brake to help balance the car. Maybe not in F1 or something with limited suspension travel, but in Rally and/or production based cars like this you will left foot brake for balance. At least, close to the limit you will.

sandworm101 7y ago

>> how hard to brake Easy answer: Always as much braking as possible. There is no light braking in racing. You want to maintain full speed until you absolutely have to slow down. You brake as late as possible. The skill is not in judging how hard to brake, but when to begin braking. Watch F1 with the telemetry on the screen. Throttle goes up and down in corners. Braking is always either full-on or nothing.

Shorel 7y ago
>> Easy answer: Always as much braking as possible. Too simplified. It requires a precise definition of 'as much as possible'. Measured answer: You have to prevent the wheels to lock, so always brake just an infinitesimal bit below this locking point: now you have invented ABS brakes. If it was just a matter of 'slam your foot to the metal', cars would never have needed ABS brakes.
stjohnswarts 7y ago
I don't believe that. If you slam on the brakes hard every time you need to slow down a bit you're going to go into a tail spin and die especially at f1 speeds.
- dpark 7y ago
  If you’re braking gently the F1 car behind you will absolutely pass you immediately and then brake hard to make the corner. If you lose control under hard braking it means you chose to brake at the wrong point.
- sandworm101 7y ago
  >> every time you need to slow down a bit In racing that is not a thing. There is never a situation where a car needs to "slow down a bit". The goal is to stay as fast as possible as much as possible. That means either going flat out (either in speed or cornering) or be under maximum braking (to minimize time at lower speeds). If you are ever "a bit" too fast then you have made a mistake. You began braking too late. On the next lap you will alter your braking point, not adjust your braking pressure. >> tail spin Also not a thing under braking. "Tail spins", or to use the correct term oversteer occur when a rwd car applies too much power (or some 4wd). The back end slips. When you brake too hard entering a corner the front wheels will depart first, causing an understeer rather than a tailspin. The car will push forwards and fail to turn.
- iamaelephant 7y ago
  Maybe if you're not into motorsport you should not comment on it. You're wrong. Especially in highly aero dependent cars like F1 cars, where you can achieve maximum braking pressure at top speed due to the down force. The parent commenter is also wrong, brakes in F1 cars are certainly not either full on or full off, the drivers trail brake into corners so although the driver begins braking at maximum force, they slowly release the brake as the car enters the corner and starts turning.
  - kube-system 7y ago
    Yeah, there’s a lot of misinformation all around here. Not to mention that production cars have a lot different dynamics than an f1 car. They’re designed with very different chassis goals in mind, so they’re going to exhibition very different behaviors around a track. I have a few days experience on track with an SCCA instructor. Braking late and at maximum deceleration is the basic idea, but braking can do lots of things and be used lots of ways. A light application of braking is sometimes important, not to slow the vehicle, but just to transfer weight to the front wheels before a turn. Also, it is possible to use light braking to induce some rotation mid-turn, especially in an FWD vehicle like a Leaf that will likely exhibit significant understeer. Driving a car around a real track is humbling for the first time. The first event I was at, some instructor was taking a few laps with his personal Chevy Volt, and he was effortlessly passing students in a variety of high dollar sports cars.
chrismcb 7y ago
Sure, it is full on or nothing. It isn't so much how hard to brake, but how much.
GhostVII 7y ago
Well you usually want to do trail braking where you smoothly let off on the brakes as you start to turn, and then slowly apply the throttle. At least if you are racing with relatively normal cars.
- sandworm101 7y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpYU_6pz-44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpYU_6pz-44 Watch the brake and throttle indicators. He is off the brakes long before committing to the corner. And whenever he is on the brakes it is total. If you gradually move from braking to throttle you will take the turn too sharply. You set the speed before the corner so that during the corner the tires work only on turning. Then you apply the throttle as much as possible on the way out. Braking during the first half of a turn is done for some specific turn geometry (decreasing radius turns, or a car with higher acceleration than braking ability) but is generally a bad habit.
  - Shorel 7y ago
    Watch this video, particularly the brake pressure in the last half of the lap: https://youtu.be/eloZhdIyyv0?t=69 https://youtu.be/eloZhdIyyv0?t=69 It is true that the braking plot-line looks a bit like an step function, but it never is, there's a huge difference between taking half a second to press the brake and it being machine-like and taking just some milliseconds. It is even more pronounced when releasing the brake pedal. There you can always see a slope.
    - sandworm101 7y ago
      Ya, slope, not half-way braking. Applying or releasing a pedal smoothly is different than braking at 50%. The pedal always moves quickly between 0 and 100. You don't see the driver braking into some corners at 50% and others at 75%. If the driver only pushes the pedal to 50% and then backs off, that is almost certainly a mistake. Throttle is variable. Braking is all-or-nothing.
      - 7y ago
missosoup 7y ago
HN is slowly becoming like reddit, people are downvoting a factually correct comment because they disagree. Because they don't know the topic they're disagreeing about.
- 14 7y ago
  When ever I down vote a person I always try and leave a comment as to why I disagree. I really think this should be the norm of HN. Justify your answer. Otherwise I am left wondering if the people down voting are simply paid trolls trying to persuade public opinion.
  - missosoup 7y ago
    Downvotes aren't to signal 'I disagree'. They're supposed to signal 'this comment is noise/doesn't contribute to discussion'.
- winrid 7y ago
  It's not correct is the issue.
winrid 7y ago
Nope. You use the brake to help balance the car. Maybe not in F1 or something with limited suspension travel, but in Rally and/or production based cars like this you will left foot brake for balance. At least, close to the limit you will.