7 ms·

A 60 year old American financier who's uglier than a frog has 2 teenage eastern european models as "assistants"....does that add up to you?

hackinthebochs 7y ago
It adds up when you add the fact that he was a billionaire, or at least in the vicinity.
nf8nnfufuu 7y ago
Even young East European models have to work somewhere (at least some of them). (Paragraph called them "young women", not "teens", btw). Should young women only be allowed to work for poor people, if they are attractive? Or maybe only for other young people? I don't think that would be a good rule. I don't think it would be enough for an accusation. Of course with the background that Epstein was already known as a sex trafficker, it is a very different matter.
- sgt101 7y ago
  Why two beautiful young women though - that seems not to be likely due to chance and surely enough to make any rational person wonder what they hell is going on? The thing is to make everyone who you meet a bit complicit. Two young women at the meeting is not quite enough to make anyone at the meeting intervene, but it is enough that there is then a lever - "you were at the october meet, you met Siri and Alexa... you were there weren't you? You are smart, you knew what was going on then and you didn't do a thing. How will that play if that gets out?" It's not much of a lever, but my suspicion is that there is a slow enmeshment and escalation; a dance of probing and pulling - more intense for the more useful or more dangerous contacts. The aim is to have protection, cover and support. People who say things like "one of your assistant was sobbing in the loo, so I called mental health services" suddenly find that colleagues are talking about how socially inept they are, and how important that they are kept out of certain meetings. People who join in and show approval are regarded as "good" and "fun". Bit by bit it becomes normal. The transgressions shown to "outsiders" are safe - or at least there are explanations and the outsiders are carefully selected to be vulnerable pressure from people in the circle, but each time this happens that tar pit of complicity grows and deepens. Eventually powerful people are looking at personal ruin if the offenders are exposed.
  - dennisgorelik 7y ago
    > "... so I called mental health services" suddenly find that colleagues are talking about how socially inept they are What is the right behavior then? Should have Joi Ito recognize that "two beautiful young women" bait and cancelled all potential business with Epstein?
    - sgt101 7y ago
      >What is the right behavior then? To contact mental health/wellbeing officers in your institution, and to be on record as having done it. There will be short term costs, but in the long term the costs of not doing so could be catastrophic. >Should have Joi Ito recognize that "two beautiful young women" bait and cancelled all potential business with Epstein? I don't know because I wasn't there and I don't know the circumstances around the meeting. In the hypothetical universe I think that the best case is that people's radars click into action and the folks left in the room say "that was super weird, I don't like this, what the hell are we doing talking to these people, let's stop". In the real world when you're doing something you believe in, you need money for that, and you are under pressure, I can imagine that not happening. A big problem is that it shouldn't be a single person or a narrow group making these decisions. There should be wide group who met with Epstein and knew what was going on, and in the best case I think that it would be good to get everyone in a room and say "what did we think"? Perhaps also some specific follow up meetings with quieter or more insightful members of the group "what did you think?". One question "ok, does anyone have a red flag here?" would (I think) give me a lot of comfort even if it later turned out that I had made a deal with Stalin - at least I asked, at least I wasn't just a fool. Process and culture - yet again.
      - dennisgorelik 7y ago
        > contact mental health/wellbeing officers That may terminate the career of donations receiving officer. In addition to losing that particular donor, other donors may start worrying if they will end up being investigated after attempting to donate. > it shouldn't be a single person or a narrow group making these decisions Big bureaucracy is expensive and may consume a significant part of donation money. > a deal with Stalin In spite of Stalin being a villain, WW2 deal that UK and the US made with Stalin against Nazy Germany -- was a positive one.
- point78 7y ago
  The keywords in my sentence was "american" and "eastern european" EE is known for sex trafficking young beautiful women and mainly in Europe. That an American has his hands on them is even stranger.
fortran77 7y ago
Why are we judging people by their looks? Is that what the righteous thought-leaders of Y Combinator and Hacker News do? Why are young women who look like "models" not credible at MIT Media Lab?
- point78 7y ago
  The keywords in my sentence was "american" and "eastern european" EE is known for sex trafficking young beautiful women and mainly in Europe. That an American has his hands on them is even stranger.
  - fortran77 7y ago
    I don't disagree that something didn't appear right here. However, the folks here at Hacker News are only judging these women by their appearance and nothing else. It's not good when an attractive young person visiting MIT is viewed with suspicion because of some prejudice against attractive individuals and youth.
    - point78 7y ago
      Ah I see now. Yes.

hackinthebochs 7y ago

It adds up when you add the fact that he was a billionaire, or at least in the vicinity.

nf8nnfufuu 7y ago

Even young East European models have to work somewhere (at least some of them). (Paragraph called them "young women", not "teens", btw). Should young women only be allowed to work for poor people, if they are attractive? Or maybe only for other young people? I don't think that would be a good rule. I don't think it would be enough for an accusation. Of course with the background that Epstein was already known as a sex trafficker, it is a very different matter.

sgt101 7y ago
Why two beautiful young women though - that seems not to be likely due to chance and surely enough to make any rational person wonder what they hell is going on? The thing is to make everyone who you meet a bit complicit. Two young women at the meeting is not quite enough to make anyone at the meeting intervene, but it is enough that there is then a lever - "you were at the october meet, you met Siri and Alexa... you were there weren't you? You are smart, you knew what was going on then and you didn't do a thing. How will that play if that gets out?" It's not much of a lever, but my suspicion is that there is a slow enmeshment and escalation; a dance of probing and pulling - more intense for the more useful or more dangerous contacts. The aim is to have protection, cover and support. People who say things like "one of your assistant was sobbing in the loo, so I called mental health services" suddenly find that colleagues are talking about how socially inept they are, and how important that they are kept out of certain meetings. People who join in and show approval are regarded as "good" and "fun". Bit by bit it becomes normal. The transgressions shown to "outsiders" are safe - or at least there are explanations and the outsiders are carefully selected to be vulnerable pressure from people in the circle, but each time this happens that tar pit of complicity grows and deepens. Eventually powerful people are looking at personal ruin if the offenders are exposed.
- dennisgorelik 7y ago
  > "... so I called mental health services" suddenly find that colleagues are talking about how socially inept they are What is the right behavior then? Should have Joi Ito recognize that "two beautiful young women" bait and cancelled all potential business with Epstein?
  - sgt101 7y ago
    >What is the right behavior then? To contact mental health/wellbeing officers in your institution, and to be on record as having done it. There will be short term costs, but in the long term the costs of not doing so could be catastrophic. >Should have Joi Ito recognize that "two beautiful young women" bait and cancelled all potential business with Epstein? I don't know because I wasn't there and I don't know the circumstances around the meeting. In the hypothetical universe I think that the best case is that people's radars click into action and the folks left in the room say "that was super weird, I don't like this, what the hell are we doing talking to these people, let's stop". In the real world when you're doing something you believe in, you need money for that, and you are under pressure, I can imagine that not happening. A big problem is that it shouldn't be a single person or a narrow group making these decisions. There should be wide group who met with Epstein and knew what was going on, and in the best case I think that it would be good to get everyone in a room and say "what did we think"? Perhaps also some specific follow up meetings with quieter or more insightful members of the group "what did you think?". One question "ok, does anyone have a red flag here?" would (I think) give me a lot of comfort even if it later turned out that I had made a deal with Stalin - at least I asked, at least I wasn't just a fool. Process and culture - yet again.
    - dennisgorelik 7y ago
      > contact mental health/wellbeing officers That may terminate the career of donations receiving officer. In addition to losing that particular donor, other donors may start worrying if they will end up being investigated after attempting to donate. > it shouldn't be a single person or a narrow group making these decisions Big bureaucracy is expensive and may consume a significant part of donation money. > a deal with Stalin In spite of Stalin being a villain, WW2 deal that UK and the US made with Stalin against Nazy Germany -- was a positive one.
point78 7y ago
The keywords in my sentence was "american" and "eastern european" EE is known for sex trafficking young beautiful women and mainly in Europe. That an American has his hands on them is even stranger.

fortran77 7y ago

Why are we judging people by their looks? Is that what the righteous thought-leaders of Y Combinator and Hacker News do? Why are young women who look like "models" not credible at MIT Media Lab?

point78 7y ago
The keywords in my sentence was "american" and "eastern european" EE is known for sex trafficking young beautiful women and mainly in Europe. That an American has his hands on them is even stranger.
- fortran77 7y ago
  I don't disagree that something didn't appear right here. However, the folks here at Hacker News are only judging these women by their appearance and nothing else. It's not good when an attractive young person visiting MIT is viewed with suspicion because of some prejudice against attractive individuals and youth.
  - point78 7y ago
    Ah I see now. Yes.