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As someone on the other side of this, recruiting for a big bank, it was depressing. The reason we defaulted to the GPA was exactly because it was so easy to do

As someone on the other side of this, recruiting for a big bank, it was depressing. The reason we defaulted to the GPA was exactly because it was so easy to do the work. Let me explain. When we visited a school (usually Columbia or NYU for me) we had 100s, usually over a 1000, resumes. When I talked to the students, they were all bright, smart, interesting and motivated. From their resumes I got the impression any of them could do the job. And yet we had to pick maybe 10-30 from the school for that summer. (Keep in mind we recruited from many schools for many different positions). So you have 1000 resumes and they all seem smart and interesting and you have to pick 10. What do you do? The GPA is a great way to numerically and “objectively” make a cut. Then when you see a typo and maybe you can exclude that one and so on. The reason you have to rely on these non predictive elements is exactly because everyone signals well on the predictive elements.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
So why not try random instead? It sounds like a great opportunity for an experiment. Say you have 20 slots, pick 10 using the GPA/nitpick method, and 10 at random, and then compare the results 5 or 10 years later.
- clairity 7y ago
  yup, once you've whittled down to qualified candidates, you've exhausted your (relatively) objective methods anyway, so random is your best choice then. i made this same point recently using the nba for illustration: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20848444 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20848444
- Spooky23 7y ago
  I’ve done that a few times when I’ve had to hire people very quickly. I numbered each resume without reading it and drew lots. We had 6 people interview ~30 people for 10 slots. Each person had 15 minutes to talk. Candidates were out of the running if 3 people said “no”. We stopped when we had 10 people. It worked out pretty good, but made HR angry. We ended up with 2 bozos, but the rest were pretty great. I worked at another place years ago where we would mentor call center agents to become DBAs and Unix people. Those folks were all awesome, and a few had GEDs only. One of them called me to thank me for the opportunity, he just became a CIO! Personally, if you have the time, you can mentor and get better results from a marginally qualified, engaged candidate than a person with the right credentials.
  - bsanr2 7y ago
    Investment > innate capability You would think the tech industry, with its endless graveyard of technically-superior-but-undermarketed or under-supported products would recognize this.
- omarhaneef 7y ago
  I think people do that. I just recommended a few, and others recommended a few and then HR took those in and whittled it down and invited some to interview. Random somehow seems even more unfair and arbitrary.
rajacombinator 7y ago
Do you think your view was common in any way? GPA is a deeply flawed metric but I don’t think most people have any awareness of this.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  There are plenty of jobs in banking that don’t require much beyond the ability to get a BA in whatever and a personality that tends to follow the rules. Even in tech jobs, the narrow scope of jobs for compliance reasons enables all sorts of wacky. I had a buddy who basically performed a single task related to zoning SAN volumes and made an obscene salary for doing so. GPA correlates to a personality that the function in the bureaucracy.
  - bsanr2 7y ago
    I see these type of comments as an underemployed college grad and don't know how to feel.
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      step one is don't feel bad. it really is a numbers game. some of the companies you're applying to don't actually want to hire anyone for the position right now. some of them are desperate to get anyone with a pulse yesterday. it's all about timing, but you don't usually have a way of knowing when the time is right. just keep rolling the dice; you'll get a bite eventually. I got an internship that lead to my first full-time job when I had a 2.4 GPA. I just happened to have experience with relevant tech that was rare in the area and they gave me a shot.
      - bsanr2 7y ago
        Here's my issue: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/25/three-quarters-of-whites-dont-have-any-non-white-friends/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/25/three... https://www.epi.org/publication/labor-day-2019-racial-disparities-in-employment/ https://www.epi.org/publication/labor-day-2019-racial-dispar... So while what you say is true, my potential network is necessarily limited. Working in retail, I still met plenty of people who wouldn't even let me assist them because of my race. I think this may go beyond personal qualities.
sandworm101 7y ago
>> When I talked to the students, they were all bright, smart, interesting and motivated. Lol. You obviously were not talking to them very much. Half of elite grads are boring dullards these days. They lack confidence and originality. They only bother with "projects" when they think those projects make great resume items. They never attempt anything that they think might fail. Someone who has never bombed a class or exam, never reached too far, doesn't have enough experience yet. Also, if typos on resumes cause you to drop applicants then you are missing out on great people. You think any of the kids who hire resume writers have typos? A typo is evidence that the applicant actually wrote it themselves. That's a plus imho. The legal field has a trick in interviews, but it is applicable to any field: Ask the applicant to tell a story about something they saw happen. The one who could put a narrative together on the fly, the one that could organize their thoughts as they spoke, those are the people you want. Unless you are hiring ditch diggers, effective communication means more than base skills, let alone typo avoidance.
- AndrewKemendo 7y ago
  Half of elite grads are boring dullards these days. They lack confidence and originality. Sounds like exactly what large consulting and banking institutions are looking for. They want fresh grads they can put through their corporate training program, send the most sycophantic to a top MBA program, chew them up (albeit with great pay) for 10 years and throw most of them away, keeping a few as partners.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago

So why not try random instead? It sounds like a great opportunity for an experiment. Say you have 20 slots, pick 10 using the GPA/nitpick method, and 10 at random, and then compare the results 5 or 10 years later.

clairity 7y ago
yup, once you've whittled down to qualified candidates, you've exhausted your (relatively) objective methods anyway, so random is your best choice then. i made this same point recently using the nba for illustration: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20848444 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20848444
Spooky23 7y ago
I’ve done that a few times when I’ve had to hire people very quickly. I numbered each resume without reading it and drew lots. We had 6 people interview ~30 people for 10 slots. Each person had 15 minutes to talk. Candidates were out of the running if 3 people said “no”. We stopped when we had 10 people. It worked out pretty good, but made HR angry. We ended up with 2 bozos, but the rest were pretty great. I worked at another place years ago where we would mentor call center agents to become DBAs and Unix people. Those folks were all awesome, and a few had GEDs only. One of them called me to thank me for the opportunity, he just became a CIO! Personally, if you have the time, you can mentor and get better results from a marginally qualified, engaged candidate than a person with the right credentials.
- bsanr2 7y ago
  Investment > innate capability You would think the tech industry, with its endless graveyard of technically-superior-but-undermarketed or under-supported products would recognize this.
omarhaneef 7y ago
I think people do that. I just recommended a few, and others recommended a few and then HR took those in and whittled it down and invited some to interview. Random somehow seems even more unfair and arbitrary.

rajacombinator 7y ago

Do you think your view was common in any way? GPA is a deeply flawed metric but I don’t think most people have any awareness of this.

Spooky23 7y ago
There are plenty of jobs in banking that don’t require much beyond the ability to get a BA in whatever and a personality that tends to follow the rules. Even in tech jobs, the narrow scope of jobs for compliance reasons enables all sorts of wacky. I had a buddy who basically performed a single task related to zoning SAN volumes and made an obscene salary for doing so. GPA correlates to a personality that the function in the bureaucracy.
- bsanr2 7y ago
  I see these type of comments as an underemployed college grad and don't know how to feel.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    step one is don't feel bad. it really is a numbers game. some of the companies you're applying to don't actually want to hire anyone for the position right now. some of them are desperate to get anyone with a pulse yesterday. it's all about timing, but you don't usually have a way of knowing when the time is right. just keep rolling the dice; you'll get a bite eventually. I got an internship that lead to my first full-time job when I had a 2.4 GPA. I just happened to have experience with relevant tech that was rare in the area and they gave me a shot.
    - bsanr2 7y ago
      Here's my issue: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/25/three-quarters-of-whites-dont-have-any-non-white-friends/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/25/three... https://www.epi.org/publication/labor-day-2019-racial-disparities-in-employment/ https://www.epi.org/publication/labor-day-2019-racial-dispar... So while what you say is true, my potential network is necessarily limited. Working in retail, I still met plenty of people who wouldn't even let me assist them because of my race. I think this may go beyond personal qualities.

sandworm101 7y ago

>> When I talked to the students, they were all bright, smart, interesting and motivated. Lol. You obviously were not talking to them very much. Half of elite grads are boring dullards these days. They lack confidence and originality. They only bother with "projects" when they think those projects make great resume items. They never attempt anything that they think might fail. Someone who has never bombed a class or exam, never reached too far, doesn't have enough experience yet. Also, if typos on resumes cause you to drop applicants then you are missing out on great people. You think any of the kids who hire resume writers have typos? A typo is evidence that the applicant actually wrote it themselves. That's a plus imho. The legal field has a trick in interviews, but it is applicable to any field: Ask the applicant to tell a story about something they saw happen. The one who could put a narrative together on the fly, the one that could organize their thoughts as they spoke, those are the people you want. Unless you are hiring ditch diggers, effective communication means more than base skills, let alone typo avoidance.

AndrewKemendo 7y ago
Half of elite grads are boring dullards these days. They lack confidence and originality. Sounds like exactly what large consulting and banking institutions are looking for. They want fresh grads they can put through their corporate training program, send the most sycophantic to a top MBA program, chew them up (albeit with great pay) for 10 years and throw most of them away, keeping a few as partners.