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I live in SF and work in Civic Center. Not long ago I attended to a guy who was OD'ing on the sidewalk, and a number of things about the experience surprised me

I live in SF and work in Civic Center. Not long ago I attended to a guy who was OD'ing on the sidewalk, and a number of things about the experience surprised me. I called 911 when the guy started seizing. He stopped breathing but still had a decent radial pulse, and I was surprised that the 911 operator wanted me to start chest compressions nonetheless. I was doubly surprised that the operator wanted me to stay on the phone while I did it, which is basically impossible. I just said "I know how to do it I'm putting the phone down." As I was doing it I yelled for Narcan and the junkies on the block immediately leapt into action trying to find some. Eventually somebody came by with some and set about giving him an IM injection. I thought, "I don't know if that needle is clean but I also don't know when the EMT's will get here so I guess it's better for him to get hep or HIV than for him to die." When the EMT's finally showed (probably quicker than it seemed) the first thing they did was start yelling at everyone, especially the woman with the Narcan. I found it very unprofessional.

soulofmischief 7y ago
It's sad that such altruistic behavior can lead to massive litigation, but that's probably what the EMTs were thinking. You did the right thing for sure, but I'm willing to bet junkies are statistically more likely to attempt litigation in order to feed their addiction.
- snazz 7y ago
  Good Samaritan laws are pretty common in the US to solve that problem.
  - cobbzilla 7y ago
    many Good Samaritan laws don’t apply to licensed providers, and excessive litigation is absolutely a problem. In my town, an ambulance was involved in a traffic collision. The ambulance was not moving, and was still found to be at fault. Go figure.
    - 1123581321 7y ago
      Can you elaborate on the circumstances? Regardless, traffic collision at-fault rulings have little to do with professional error liability.
    - monieseee 7y ago
      Maybe it was parked in a really stupid way which made a collision likely.
- misterdoubt 7y ago
  Yes, junkies overdosing in public are well-known for their legal acumen.
  - FlyMoreRockets 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambulance_chasing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambulance_chasing
  - soulofmischief 7y ago
    They aren't, but some scumbags are. They only need to find out who to call.
neilv 7y ago
I'm very glad you and the nearby opioid addicts were able to help that person. Regarding the EMTs yelling, could they have been trying to clear people away, to be confident the scene safe for themselves (one of the first steps I've heard some first responders have), or to get access to the patient? Or maybe the opioid epidemic is wearing heavily on them, though they keep doing their job? (I looked into EMT-B training a while ago, and it's a really difficult, scary, and severely underpaid job. I probably couldn't do that job for very long, emotionally, even if I could afford it financially. Ironically, the compensation for being an EMT, helping people, seems unfortunately backwards, by societal value, with a lot of software jobs I'm considering right now.)
- hyperdimension 7y ago
  I agree with you re: the bottom point about EMT's salaries. It's the same with teachers; they're one of the most essential parts of society, and they're paid so little. An example: in Georgia, just picking a random county, teachers make around 20,000~60,000$ a year, leaning more toward the lower end. It seems that importance to society and salary are negatively correlated... You can look them up here: http://open.georgia.gov/openga/salaryTravel/list http://open.georgia.gov/openga/salaryTravel/list Also, a somewhat-related video I watched recently (a fantastic channel, by the way:) https://youtube.com/watch?v=VOAaFyv_shY https://youtube.com/watch?v=VOAaFyv_shY
  - nine_k 7y ago
    > they're one of the most essential parts of society, and they're paid so little. They can somehow hire enough even at this salaries, and appear to think that's enough. Quality of education is hard to measure, and it takes very long to measure, much longer than a typical election term.
    - FlyMoreRockets 7y ago
      Agreed, however the turnover is terrible. With the low wages and tough working conditions, the department I worked had 15 EMT-firefighters when fully staffed, which was pretty much never. We averaged a little over two and a half new hires a year the time I worked there, nearl 17 percent turnover, every year. Ran into a former coworker a the grocery store a few months ago, he told me an entire shift just quit, a third of the department. That is no way to run a business.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
rdtsc 7y ago
A policeman I know was telling me how a few times he had to get Narcan from the nearby junkies to save the person who was OD-ing. I had forgotten to ask if there is any legality or cover-your-ass issues there, say if they infect the person or the Narcan ends up being something else that kills the person. I imagine they probably thought this person is going to die and decided to do it anyway.
- jpindar 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law
  - FlyMoreRockets 7y ago
    Good Samaritan law does not apply to first responders unless they are volunteers.
petschge 7y ago
The reason why they tell you to start chest compressions when the breathing stops even if you think you feel a pulse is that it is really easy to feel your own pulse, especially in such a high pressure situation. If the electric circuitry of the heart is still intact you wont damage it, but if you skipped compression because you felt your pulse that person is very dead. On what is so hard with putting the cell phone on speaker and setting it down next to the downed person? Your are still on the line but have your hands free? Aside from that: thanks for helping a fellow human and congratulations on keeping it together under high pressure.
- FlyMoreRockets 7y ago
  : The reason why they tell you to start chest compressions is because it creates adequate air exchange to keep somebody alive until Narcan is administered.
  - petschge 7y ago
    Well yeah. Chest compressions produce enough air exchange even without rescue breath to keep the person alive for 5-10 minutes. If you have to do CPR longer than that outcomes are better with rescue breath. I hope you do have a mask or at least a face shield when you have to do that for a stranger...

soulofmischief 7y ago

It's sad that such altruistic behavior can lead to massive litigation, but that's probably what the EMTs were thinking. You did the right thing for sure, but I'm willing to bet junkies are statistically more likely to attempt litigation in order to feed their addiction.

snazz 7y ago
Good Samaritan laws are pretty common in the US to solve that problem.
- cobbzilla 7y ago
  many Good Samaritan laws don’t apply to licensed providers, and excessive litigation is absolutely a problem. In my town, an ambulance was involved in a traffic collision. The ambulance was not moving, and was still found to be at fault. Go figure.
  - 1123581321 7y ago
    Can you elaborate on the circumstances? Regardless, traffic collision at-fault rulings have little to do with professional error liability.
  - monieseee 7y ago
    Maybe it was parked in a really stupid way which made a collision likely.
misterdoubt 7y ago
Yes, junkies overdosing in public are well-known for their legal acumen.
- FlyMoreRockets 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambulance_chasing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambulance_chasing
- soulofmischief 7y ago
  They aren't, but some scumbags are. They only need to find out who to call.

neilv 7y ago

I'm very glad you and the nearby opioid addicts were able to help that person. Regarding the EMTs yelling, could they have been trying to clear people away, to be confident the scene safe for themselves (one of the first steps I've heard some first responders have), or to get access to the patient? Or maybe the opioid epidemic is wearing heavily on them, though they keep doing their job? (I looked into EMT-B training a while ago, and it's a really difficult, scary, and severely underpaid job. I probably couldn't do that job for very long, emotionally, even if I could afford it financially. Ironically, the compensation for being an EMT, helping people, seems unfortunately backwards, by societal value, with a lot of software jobs I'm considering right now.)

hyperdimension 7y ago
I agree with you re: the bottom point about EMT's salaries. It's the same with teachers; they're one of the most essential parts of society, and they're paid so little. An example: in Georgia, just picking a random county, teachers make around 20,000~60,000$ a year, leaning more toward the lower end. It seems that importance to society and salary are negatively correlated... You can look them up here: http://open.georgia.gov/openga/salaryTravel/list http://open.georgia.gov/openga/salaryTravel/list Also, a somewhat-related video I watched recently (a fantastic channel, by the way:) https://youtube.com/watch?v=VOAaFyv_shY https://youtube.com/watch?v=VOAaFyv_shY
- nine_k 7y ago
  > they're one of the most essential parts of society, and they're paid so little. They can somehow hire enough even at this salaries, and appear to think that's enough. Quality of education is hard to measure, and it takes very long to measure, much longer than a typical election term.
  - FlyMoreRockets 7y ago
    Agreed, however the turnover is terrible. With the low wages and tough working conditions, the department I worked had 15 EMT-firefighters when fully staffed, which was pretty much never. We averaged a little over two and a half new hires a year the time I worked there, nearl 17 percent turnover, every year. Ran into a former coworker a the grocery store a few months ago, he told me an entire shift just quit, a third of the department. That is no way to run a business.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

rdtsc 7y ago

A policeman I know was telling me how a few times he had to get Narcan from the nearby junkies to save the person who was OD-ing. I had forgotten to ask if there is any legality or cover-your-ass issues there, say if they infect the person or the Narcan ends up being something else that kills the person. I imagine they probably thought this person is going to die and decided to do it anyway.

jpindar 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law
- FlyMoreRockets 7y ago
  Good Samaritan law does not apply to first responders unless they are volunteers.

petschge 7y ago

The reason why they tell you to start chest compressions when the breathing stops even if you think you feel a pulse is that it is really easy to feel your own pulse, especially in such a high pressure situation. If the electric circuitry of the heart is still intact you wont damage it, but if you skipped compression because you felt your pulse that person is very dead. On what is so hard with putting the cell phone on speaker and setting it down next to the downed person? Your are still on the line but have your hands free? Aside from that: thanks for helping a fellow human and congratulations on keeping it together under high pressure.

FlyMoreRockets 7y ago
: The reason why they tell you to start chest compressions is because it creates adequate air exchange to keep somebody alive until Narcan is administered.
- petschge 7y ago
  Well yeah. Chest compressions produce enough air exchange even without rescue breath to keep the person alive for 5-10 minutes. If you have to do CPR longer than that outcomes are better with rescue breath. I hope you do have a mask or at least a face shield when you have to do that for a stranger...