11 ms·

I feel the tone of this tweet is needlessly hysterical. The NYC Subway is experimenting with digital maps, OK. The first version isn't perfect, OK. And they res

by sho 7y ago

I feel the tone of this tweet is needlessly hysterical. The NYC Subway is experimenting with digital maps, OK. The first version isn't perfect, OK. And they responded almost immediately indicating they're making improvements and listening to feedback. Isn't that what we want? Give them a second maybe? It's rarely a good thing when a tweet tells you more about the personality of the tweeter than the ostensible subject at hand. Calm down, jesus.

rolltiide 7y ago
Or like SVG with tappable nodes via D3??? This is a design decision that was neglected, plain and simple
- hbosch 7y ago
  You can tell from the photo that the low res is from the screens physical pixel density, not a poor optimized taster graphic. SVG wouldn’t help here. Also, interactive maps aren’t as simple as “make it from D3.js”. You’ll have a screen that thousands of people interact with every day, likely. The UX needs to be thoroughly considered so that it’s non fuck-uppable or breakable. That’s actually the #1 problem with digital maps, they break.
  - rolltiide 7y ago
    Elaborate on how a D3 map would break?
- roywiggins 7y ago
  You'd have to replace these screens, which are not touchscreens.
  - rolltiide 7y ago
    are they interactive in some capacity?
Eric_WVGG 7y ago
I don't think you appreciate the rate of change around here. When something new gets put in place, it's there for a long time. We are still listening to incoherent stop announcements from 50-year -old speakers that should have been retired in the nineties. These screens will probably be around for at least twenty years. They aren't good, a waste of money from an institution that is already cash-strapped.
- VWWHFSfQ 7y ago
  > We are still listening to incoherent stop announcements from 50-year -old speakers that should have been retired in the nineties. That's only on the older trains that are being replaced. Every new train on the main red, green, and blue lines have recorded stop announcements for at least the last 10 years. Everybody knows that NYC subway isn't as modern as a lot of systems but don't forget that it's by far the largest subway system in the world and also one of the oldest. They've installed LTE in almost all the stations now and are rolling out contactless payments. Progress is being made to modernize but it's not happening overnight.
  - mcny 7y ago
    Why are we cash strapped? Everyone from the governor and the state legislature to the unions and private contractors seem to be hell bent on destroying it. Why won't NYS put more money into the subways? Why can't we get driverless trains? Why do trains have to slow to a crawl if there is work being done two tracks over? Do we need barriers between tracks? So many low hanging fruits blocked by greed and short term self interest.
    - bradleyjg 7y ago
      Why put in more money, when the money we put in already is so inefficiently spent? Let the MTA prove they can be a good steward and then I’d be all for spending more on them as needed.
      - bobthepanda 7y ago
jrockway 7y ago
This was my exact thought. I fear that people translate a thought like "my train to work was crowded today" into something like "here are 8 points, all stupid, on how I hate your maps". The guy seems mad and complaney, not someone providing actual feedback. Having infrastructure for digital maps is a good plan. The service patterns change at night. There is construction during all off hours that results in trains being rerouted. A digital map just shows you exactly what the state is right now. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. Making the taxpayers buy super high resolution not-yet-invented displays instead of off-the-shelf $200 TVs to make this guy happy doesn't seem worth it. Just make the text a little bit bigger, or even redesign the map completely.
- notyourday 7y ago
  Do small things first -- make the countdown clocks work. It will go a long way towards making people believe MTA digital projects. Make sure that when the electronic sign says that the train is "2 minutes away" it actually shows up in 2 minutes. If a sign says train is "6 minutes away" there should not be a train entering a platform 2 minutes later.
  - VWWHFSfQ 7y ago
    maybe it's just my train, but the countdown clocks have always been pretty accurate for me.
    - Tokkemon 7y ago
      Yes they are on the whole. But that one time there was some unexpected delay, and it ruins any goodwill the clock built up in the eyes of the rider. It's quite frustrating to see.
      - jrockway 7y ago
        I have seen them wrong, it didn't ruin the goodwill. What I take away from the clocks are minor delays that don't get mentioned in the official notifications. I often see arrival times like "1 3 15 21" (literally a sample taken right now for my home station) and know something is wrong, but there is no communication from the MTA about it. I then choose an alternate route. What the MTA needs to fix is when the schedule says that trains run every 3 minutes, the countdown clock needs to look like "1 4 7 10", not "1 4 33 36".
whalesalad 7y ago
This is the new world we live in. Intense and hysterical knee-jerk reactions to even the smallest things.
- lifeformed 7y ago
  ???? Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the Twitter user is being fairly tame, and everyone here calling him "hysterical" are the ones overreacting?
- rmrfrmrf 7y ago
  Twitter is all about broadcasting people's unfiltered thoughts.
  - morley 7y ago
    Twitter thoughts are more than unfiltered: the emotions have to be dialed up to the max for the tweet to stand out and get positive feedback. Small things get amplified AND they get interpreted as unfiltered thoughts.
- baumgarn 7y ago
  It's not a small thing as it implicates millions in their daily lives. So a bad design decision on this scale trickes upwards and has huge costs for a society. The points the tweeter made were very well thought out. Everything should always be up for debate.
  - Tokkemon 7y ago
    Most people using the subway aren't using those maps to begin with.
    - unethical_ban 7y ago
      Not only did I downvote you, but I will specifically comment to tell you that you are both wrong, and even if you were right, it would be irrelevent. "Most" being what, 90%? 95%? So out of a city of 8.6M people, only 50,000 people a day need it to get around. Only 50,000 people need it to be able to move around from their home, the airport, the hospital and the restaurant.
ixtli 7y ago
It’s really bizarre. There’s so much to criticize about the transit system here but the majority of what’s done (or perhaps what bubbles up on popular websites) is weird breathless criticism of things that either don’t matter or are small enough to be minutiae. - Bring the NYC subway fully under the control of the city: remove Albany from the decision making process so we can actually fund the system. - Charge based on distance. - Stop policing poverty. E.g. stop paying cops to arrest fare jumpers and fix shit instead.
- mongol 7y ago
  About charge based on distance. I don't know about NYC in particular, but I would not support that where I live without thourough understanding what actually drives the costs in the system. It is not uncommon that commuters in far away suburbs, that commute far, actually get quite poor service, considering for example number of options for transit. Fewer trains or buses, etc. My guess is that what drives the costs is staff, and staff per square km is most likely higher in central parts of the system. So a fair fee strucure could very well be completely different than per distance.
  - delfinom 7y ago
    Commuters that are coming into NYC itself from the suburbs are already paying distance pricing for the MetroNorth and LIRR which break up the routes into zones and your fare is based on how many zones you transition. Also don't forget trains physically still cost money to maintain. The longer distance they travel, they sooner they'll need to undergo maintenance. As one example, the wheels they roll on do need to be taken off, inspected, repaired/replaced on fixed schedules. The longer they travel with less people moved, the more expensive it is. Another case is that the fuel or electricity they use isn't free either.
- nerdponx 7y ago
  Cops are being paid regardless. Fare jumping costs the system a non-trivial amount of money.
- alephnan 7y ago
fibers 7y ago
Because public transit is one of those things that should prioritize accessibility/safety above everything else (this isn't firmware hacking with arduinos). Low res screens do nothing but harm accessibility standards in the long run and alienate the people they're designed to help.
fullshark 7y ago
That's not how twitter works if you want engagement though. You need to hit that outrage sweet spot.
Aloha 7y ago
> It's rarely a good thing when a tweet tells you more about the personality of the tweeter than the ostensible subject at hand. Calm down, jesus. On some level, isn't this just the nature of twitter?
i_am_proteus 7y ago
It may be hyperbolic, but it is drawing attention to the fact that a cash-strapped system has spent money trying to (and failing to) fix something that was not broken.
- rando444 7y ago
  It's only failure if you side with the overly dramatic guy on twitter complaining about non-interactive screens. Everyone that's been to a shopping mall knows how consistently broken information touch-screens are. Suggesting they put interactive maps in a subway is just silly. The digital maps are to show realtime service information, train-times, etc. It is an improvement, and if you want a printed map, you can just ask for one at the booth. The whole "my map isn't in 4k" argument is whiny, at best.
unethical_ban 7y ago
Mucking about with public transit and changing the way humans determine how to move themselves between home, work, health and play is not something to do lightly, and when servicing the public, all ages and needs should be considered. A map that is not readable is a pretty big deal.
bt848 7y ago
The problem is that this agency is not exactly a move-fast/break-things agile organization. They probably put out the call for bids for this junk five years ago, which means whatever is wrong with it today will be with us for five years, after they put out the CFP to fix it.
wishinghand 7y ago
In what world is the tone of the rely hysterical? They’re suggesting that things that aren’t broke shouldn’t get fixed. And to keep accessibility in mind when testing.

by sho 7y ago

rolltiide 7y ago

Or like SVG with tappable nodes via D3??? This is a design decision that was neglected, plain and simple

hbosch 7y ago
You can tell from the photo that the low res is from the screens physical pixel density, not a poor optimized taster graphic. SVG wouldn’t help here. Also, interactive maps aren’t as simple as “make it from D3.js”. You’ll have a screen that thousands of people interact with every day, likely. The UX needs to be thoroughly considered so that it’s non fuck-uppable or breakable. That’s actually the #1 problem with digital maps, they break.
- rolltiide 7y ago
  Elaborate on how a D3 map would break?
roywiggins 7y ago
You'd have to replace these screens, which are not touchscreens.
- rolltiide 7y ago
  are they interactive in some capacity?

Eric_WVGG 7y ago

I don't think you appreciate the rate of change around here. When something new gets put in place, it's there for a long time. We are still listening to incoherent stop announcements from 50-year -old speakers that should have been retired in the nineties. These screens will probably be around for at least twenty years. They aren't good, a waste of money from an institution that is already cash-strapped.

VWWHFSfQ 7y ago
> We are still listening to incoherent stop announcements from 50-year -old speakers that should have been retired in the nineties. That's only on the older trains that are being replaced. Every new train on the main red, green, and blue lines have recorded stop announcements for at least the last 10 years. Everybody knows that NYC subway isn't as modern as a lot of systems but don't forget that it's by far the largest subway system in the world and also one of the oldest. They've installed LTE in almost all the stations now and are rolling out contactless payments. Progress is being made to modernize but it's not happening overnight.
- mcny 7y ago
  Why are we cash strapped? Everyone from the governor and the state legislature to the unions and private contractors seem to be hell bent on destroying it. Why won't NYS put more money into the subways? Why can't we get driverless trains? Why do trains have to slow to a crawl if there is work being done two tracks over? Do we need barriers between tracks? So many low hanging fruits blocked by greed and short term self interest.
  - bradleyjg 7y ago
    Why put in more money, when the money we put in already is so inefficiently spent? Let the MTA prove they can be a good steward and then I’d be all for spending more on them as needed.
    - bobthepanda 7y ago

jrockway 7y ago

This was my exact thought. I fear that people translate a thought like "my train to work was crowded today" into something like "here are 8 points, all stupid, on how I hate your maps". The guy seems mad and complaney, not someone providing actual feedback. Having infrastructure for digital maps is a good plan. The service patterns change at night. There is construction during all off hours that results in trains being rerouted. A digital map just shows you exactly what the state is right now. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. Making the taxpayers buy super high resolution not-yet-invented displays instead of off-the-shelf $200 TVs to make this guy happy doesn't seem worth it. Just make the text a little bit bigger, or even redesign the map completely.

notyourday 7y ago
Do small things first -- make the countdown clocks work. It will go a long way towards making people believe MTA digital projects. Make sure that when the electronic sign says that the train is "2 minutes away" it actually shows up in 2 minutes. If a sign says train is "6 minutes away" there should not be a train entering a platform 2 minutes later.
- VWWHFSfQ 7y ago
  maybe it's just my train, but the countdown clocks have always been pretty accurate for me.
  - Tokkemon 7y ago
    Yes they are on the whole. But that one time there was some unexpected delay, and it ruins any goodwill the clock built up in the eyes of the rider. It's quite frustrating to see.
    - jrockway 7y ago
      I have seen them wrong, it didn't ruin the goodwill. What I take away from the clocks are minor delays that don't get mentioned in the official notifications. I often see arrival times like "1 3 15 21" (literally a sample taken right now for my home station) and know something is wrong, but there is no communication from the MTA about it. I then choose an alternate route. What the MTA needs to fix is when the schedule says that trains run every 3 minutes, the countdown clock needs to look like "1 4 7 10", not "1 4 33 36".

whalesalad 7y ago

This is the new world we live in. Intense and hysterical knee-jerk reactions to even the smallest things.

lifeformed 7y ago
???? Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the Twitter user is being fairly tame, and everyone here calling him "hysterical" are the ones overreacting?
rmrfrmrf 7y ago
Twitter is all about broadcasting people's unfiltered thoughts.
- morley 7y ago
  Twitter thoughts are more than unfiltered: the emotions have to be dialed up to the max for the tweet to stand out and get positive feedback. Small things get amplified AND they get interpreted as unfiltered thoughts.
baumgarn 7y ago
It's not a small thing as it implicates millions in their daily lives. So a bad design decision on this scale trickes upwards and has huge costs for a society. The points the tweeter made were very well thought out. Everything should always be up for debate.
- Tokkemon 7y ago
  Most people using the subway aren't using those maps to begin with.
  - unethical_ban 7y ago
    Not only did I downvote you, but I will specifically comment to tell you that you are both wrong, and even if you were right, it would be irrelevent. "Most" being what, 90%? 95%? So out of a city of 8.6M people, only 50,000 people a day need it to get around. Only 50,000 people need it to be able to move around from their home, the airport, the hospital and the restaurant.

ixtli 7y ago

It’s really bizarre. There’s so much to criticize about the transit system here but the majority of what’s done (or perhaps what bubbles up on popular websites) is weird breathless criticism of things that either don’t matter or are small enough to be minutiae. - Bring the NYC subway fully under the control of the city: remove Albany from the decision making process so we can actually fund the system. - Charge based on distance. - Stop policing poverty. E.g. stop paying cops to arrest fare jumpers and fix shit instead.

mongol 7y ago
About charge based on distance. I don't know about NYC in particular, but I would not support that where I live without thourough understanding what actually drives the costs in the system. It is not uncommon that commuters in far away suburbs, that commute far, actually get quite poor service, considering for example number of options for transit. Fewer trains or buses, etc. My guess is that what drives the costs is staff, and staff per square km is most likely higher in central parts of the system. So a fair fee strucure could very well be completely different than per distance.
- delfinom 7y ago
  Commuters that are coming into NYC itself from the suburbs are already paying distance pricing for the MetroNorth and LIRR which break up the routes into zones and your fare is based on how many zones you transition. Also don't forget trains physically still cost money to maintain. The longer distance they travel, they sooner they'll need to undergo maintenance. As one example, the wheels they roll on do need to be taken off, inspected, repaired/replaced on fixed schedules. The longer they travel with less people moved, the more expensive it is. Another case is that the fuel or electricity they use isn't free either.
nerdponx 7y ago
Cops are being paid regardless. Fare jumping costs the system a non-trivial amount of money.
alephnan 7y ago

fibers 7y ago

Because public transit is one of those things that should prioritize accessibility/safety above everything else (this isn't firmware hacking with arduinos). Low res screens do nothing but harm accessibility standards in the long run and alienate the people they're designed to help.

fullshark 7y ago

That's not how twitter works if you want engagement though. You need to hit that outrage sweet spot.

Aloha 7y ago

> It's rarely a good thing when a tweet tells you more about the personality of the tweeter than the ostensible subject at hand. Calm down, jesus. On some level, isn't this just the nature of twitter?

i_am_proteus 7y ago

It may be hyperbolic, but it is drawing attention to the fact that a cash-strapped system has spent money trying to (and failing to) fix something that was not broken.

rando444 7y ago
It's only failure if you side with the overly dramatic guy on twitter complaining about non-interactive screens. Everyone that's been to a shopping mall knows how consistently broken information touch-screens are. Suggesting they put interactive maps in a subway is just silly. The digital maps are to show realtime service information, train-times, etc. It is an improvement, and if you want a printed map, you can just ask for one at the booth. The whole "my map isn't in 4k" argument is whiny, at best.

unethical_ban 7y ago

Mucking about with public transit and changing the way humans determine how to move themselves between home, work, health and play is not something to do lightly, and when servicing the public, all ages and needs should be considered. A map that is not readable is a pretty big deal.

bt848 7y ago

The problem is that this agency is not exactly a move-fast/break-things agile organization. They probably put out the call for bids for this junk five years ago, which means whatever is wrong with it today will be with us for five years, after they put out the CFP to fix it.

wishinghand 7y ago

In what world is the tone of the rely hysterical? They’re suggesting that things that aren’t broke shouldn’t get fixed. And to keep accessibility in mind when testing.