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How Did a Nissan Leaf Beat a Tesla Model S in a Race?
- Neil44 7y agoThe leaf was pretty well modded, tyres and suspension to keep speed in the corners would both require less regen braking into the corner and less power to get to speed on the next straight, helping to nullify the lower power and passive cooling.
- jdc 7y agoAnd the Leaf is 4-5 years newer
- dangrossman 7y agoDoes that matter? It's still a LEAF, a sub-compact commuter car, up against what was billed as the quickest production car in the world just a few years ago. The best, newest LEAF has a single 214 hp motor dragging a battery-heavy car, giving it a 0-60 time slower than a Honda Civic. This "old" Model S has two high-performance motors delivering 691 horsepower. The 5-year-old Model S is still worth more right now on the used market than a brand new top-trim LEAF.
- mirrormaru 7y agoIt isn't all about horsepower on a track. The Tesla is certainly MUCH faster in a straight line, but on a track you need to be able to maintain your speed through corners.
- Wistar 7y agoShould have put it up against the Tesla Model 3 with Track Mode.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Wistar 7y agoI have driven both and lean towards the Model S a bit.
- freyr 7y agoI'd expect more than "a bit" for the extra $45,000+. Tesla wins in the looks department, though.
- ansible 7y agoThe new Leaf has improved in the looks department. The previous version was rather... I don't know what words to use, but "meh" comes to mind.
- steelframe 7y agoWhen we first replaced our LEAF with a Model X, my spouse asked if we could go back to the LEAF. They never warmed up to the Model X, and we ended up trading it for a Volvo PHEV. It took me a while to understand why they didn't like it, but it finally set in with me that not everybody is enamored with how hard the Tesla tries to make everything so different.
- robomartin 7y agoThe real question is: Why does this matter? Seriously. Driving around almost any city in the US and the only metric you might care about is whether or not your car has VTOL capabilities. These comparisons are ridiculous. Our urban design, traffic rules and substandard drivers training have ruined efficient traffic flow and speed. At least I can still go drive on a racetrack a few times a year.
- empath75 7y agoEven if all of that were better, more people would drive and you’d still end up with congested roads.
- ajross 7y ago> These comparisons are ridiculous. Yeah, but they're fun. Overclocking consumer CPUs is likewise ridiculous, but most of us here read that content too. I'm just happy that the notion of EV's as legitimate performance vehicles is finally breaking through.
- mark-r 7y agoA while ago I had to stop at a stoplight on the highway, and somebody stopped in the lane next to me. When the light turned green I stepped on the gas in my Toyota Camry Hybrid, but the other guy left me like I was standing still. Didn't see much of his car except the Tesla insignia on the back.
- sandworm101 7y agoDrag racing is one thing that electric cars, all of them, can do very well. The limiting factor is often not how much power can be produced but how much power the rear axle can handle before snapping. But electric cars are heavy, at least if you want a battery big enough for more than a couple laps at a time. They are breaking records based on their acceleration advantages, not cornering abilities.
- 7y ago
- noipv4 7y agoFor relatively spirited driving, especially in the mountains, how often do Tesla's overheat? Does overheating reduce drivability dramatically? I have read that it's the Model S inverters which overheat the most, since the battery pack is liquid cooled.
- greglindahl 7y agoNever for me.
- dzhiurgis 7y agoWow this site just keeps refreshing on iOS + adblock, making it impossible to read or even attempt to disable adblock...
- impalallama 7y agoSame. I'm using brave on ios and the site is straight unusable.
- js2 7y agoI just read it fine on iOS using AdGuard as my blocker.
- stjohnswarts 7y agoSomething wrong with the safari engine then. No problem on windows or linux for me with firefox and ublock
- llampx 7y agoI would sooner blame a badly-coded website than a browser though, especially given how most web development seems to be devolving into a "works with Chrome" monoculture.
- panpanna 7y agoTrust me, is there is webdev monoculture it is "worked on my MacBook retina with safari, so the problem must be on your end"
- gameswithgo 7y agotires are everything in racing, and the leaf had aftermarket tires
- ourcat 7y agoThe ability of the drivers helps too. Maybe they should swap cars and do it again?
- metaphor 7y agoJump to 30:00[1] for a summary of results. Leaf edged out the Model S by 7.441 seconds. Fastest lap was 1:52.271 by the Leaf; for comparison to more traditional cars[2]. What's strange is all this Model S thermal issue talk, yet the driver posted his fastest lap in the 13th. How can this be explained? Then there's this remark from the article: > Clearly, [the Leaf driver] was keeping an eye on the temperatures and adjusting driving accordingly to finish the race before power loss occurred. ...and this[3] depicting the Leaf gauge cluster with 42% remaining at the end of the race. Was the Leaf driver even really trying? His right arm occasionally chilling on the door sill and casual commentary throughout the race was kind of funny. [1] https://youtu.be/N-9tBPObpHk?t=1800 https://youtu.be/N-9tBPObpHk?t=1800 [2] https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/sugo https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/sugo [3] https://youtu.be/N-9tBPObpHk?t=1832 https://youtu.be/N-9tBPObpHk?t=1832
- microcolonel 7y agoAround 27:40 it seems to be on his mind, but by then he'd already posted his best lap. I think it is a bit unfair, though. The Leaf seems to have an advantage in the tires, and is several years newer. I think the better race would be a TT on good AS tires in the same product range.
- myself248 7y ago> Model S thermal issue talk, yet the driver posted his fastest lap in the 13th. All that extra charge early in the race was weighing him down. Once he'd burned through most of the battery and lost the weight, the car got quicker. Every racer knows you don't start with more fuel than you need. /s
- MertsA 7y agoFor anyone else wanting to be overly pedantic, the weight difference between a fully charged P100D and a nominally depleted P100D works out to 39.281 Nanonewtons. Those weight reduction mods are really getting out of hand. /s
- dmix 7y agoAnyone familiar with racing know if its okay if drivers hit the bumpy red/white edging on the track curves? Or does it slow down the car? I noticed he was an excellent driver and still hit the sides a few times seemingly on purpose.
- jaysonelliot 7y agoYes, drivers routinely clip the curbs as they go for the ideal racing line through each corner.
- mhh__ 7y agoFor example, a good lap around spa in an F1 car means getting a blind curb at the top of Radillion at about 310 KPH
- sandworm101 7y agoSo long as one of the four wheels remains on the road, it isn't cutting a corner. It doesn't slow the car much on the inside of the corner as most of the car's weight is on the outside wheels, particularly with non-race cars that tend to lean/roll more. But you wouldn't see an F1 car doing this very much.
- iamaelephant 7y ago> But you wouldn't see an F1 car doing this very much. You see it from every F1 driver on almost every corner of almost every lap. Have you ever even watched a single F1 race?
- metaphor 7y agoThey're called berms and yes that's normal. Race cars will have properly tuned dampers and suspension to handle the high frequency oscillations generated when rolling over them. Drivers use the stripes to gauge corner entry, apex, and exit when taking a line.
- clouddrover 7y agoFormula 1 drivers do it routinely. If it works better for the racing line then it makes sense to do it. You can see it happening in Charles Leclerc's pole lap from yesterday's qualifying at the Italian grand prix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LCS-7gJ57s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LCS-7gJ57s
- segmondy 7y agoCar mods aside, 2014 vs 2019 aside, Tesla driver might just be a bad driver. The only way to know is to swap the drivers and have them race again. If Nissan Leaf wins again, then it's the better car.
- a13n 7y agoHow good of a driver do you really need to be in a car that doesn't have gears? Just push the pedal to go... Reaction time is the only factor I can think of
- leetcrew 7y agoshifting gears at the correct time is not even close to the most difficult part of racing. stuff like maintaining the balance of the vehicle and finding the best line through a turn is much more delicate.
- Thorrez 7y agoThe article mentions the Leaf driver had the screen set to constantly monitor battery temperature. I don't know Japanese, but I had Japanese auto-generated captions auto translated to English, and while it was mostly nonsense, the driver did seem to mention temperature throughout the race. There also appeared to be other videos of the driver racing a leaf interspersed with the main race. So the driver's knowledge is probably largely around exactly how hard he can push the car without the battery overheating. This is also a problem for having the drivers switch cars. If they don't have the knowledge of the car they're driving, they cannot fully take advantage of it.
- sandworm101 7y agoOne way to reduce heat load on the battery would be to disable regenerative braking. There is probably a judgement call to be made as to how much juice is needed to finish the race.
- ImprovedSilence 7y agoNo. Not at all. Picking the apex, at what speed to approach the turn, how hard to brake, when to accelerate out and how much, knowing the limits of traction of what your driving, and I’m sure much more. It’s very involved, and requires thought and decisions on top of reaction speed.
- sandworm101 7y ago>> This Race Shows How Far Ahead Tesla Is Only the most hardcore fanboy would see such a loss as as win. Ya, it was a new leaf against an old tesla. It might have been an unfair race, but this is still racing. A loss is a loss. The only answer to such a result is to bring out the better car for the next race. Until then, victory to the victors.
- S_A_P 7y agoClick. Bait. Let’s set up a David vs Goliath scenario and then keep our thumb on the scale so that we have a result that generates blogosphere chatter. And yes I’m aware of the irony that here I am chatting about it.
- BoorishBears 7y agoWhat if I told you a 155 HP Miata that does 0 to 60 in over 6 seconds decimates a P85 around a track? https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23319884/lightning-lap-times-historical-data/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23319884/lightning-la... There's no need to tip any scales to destroy a portly luxury sedan with a lighter car.
- metaphor 7y agoTo be sure, the C&D reference cites the following: RANK CAR (MODEL YEAR) TIME 136 Mazda MX-5 Cup Car (2016) 3:06.4 209 Fiat 124 Spyder Abarth (2017) 3:16.9 211 Tesla Model S P85D (2015) 3:17.4 227 Mazda MX-5 Miata Club (2016) 3:20.8 241 Mazda MX-5 (2006) 3:29.3 A bit unfair to compare the performance of a ND cup car to the P85D even if it does have a sealed 155 HP factory motor. But given the Fiata bested the Tesla by half a second, I'm confident a ND with modest ~$600 suspension upgrade on OE Potenza S001 rubber at VIR would meet the challenge...or maybe even a stock 2019 ND2.
- BoorishBears 7y agoI don't think it's unfair because it makes the engines are sealed, and the above comment is surely confusing power and quickness around a track. I could easily have used the 124 as an example (I own one), but it's less known. It also does 0 to 60 in over 6 seconds stock and is only at 164 HP stock. If anything he Club number is suspiciously low (The 2006 Miata, which non car people might not realize, is one of the heaviest, least Miata models ever made, also proving the point of how much weight matters)
- 7y ago
- ummonk 7y agoThe Model S is basically the electric equivalent of a classic muscle car. High power at the expense of weight, and optimized for short straight line performance. And like with classic muscle cars, it can be beaten on the track by a cheap light car tuned for good handling with a stiff suspension and good tires.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- mhh__ 7y agoGiven that a Tesla weighs almost 2.5 Tonnes, I don't understand the desire to race them? Surely it will just perform like a bus under braking and roll around? They also don't have manual gearboxes, which is a turn off for me personally.
- dpark 7y ago> Surely it will just perform like a bus under braking and roll around? No. The center of gravity is extremely low because of all the batteries under the floor. It’s supposedly extremely stable under cornering. > They also don't have manual gearboxes If I recall correctly, they don’t have gearboxes in the traditional sense at all. They have single speed transmissions. But I might be wrong on this.
- freehunter 7y agoExactly. They could fake a manual gearbox but it would always just be a fakery. There is no shiftable gearbox at all, so it’s not an automatic vs manual transmission. It’s just an electric motor.
- mhh__ 7y agoIt's still very heavy, which is what I meant by bus. A Porsche 917K from the 70s can still outbrake some modern sports cars because of how light it is.
- dpark 7y agoYes, obviously it’s heavy. No, that doesn’t mean it feels like driving a bus. A go cart is far lighter than a Lotus Elise. Would you expect the Elise to feel like a bus in comparison?
- mhh__ 7y agoGo Karts are probably a slightly poor example given that they are probably the most direct driving you can get short of a cheap formula car
- blendo 7y ago"Even before modifications, the LEAF has some distinct handling advantages. First, the car is much lighter. ... Or, in short, the LEAF’s battery weighs less per kWh than the Tesla’s, and it has fewer kWh." As Lotus's Colin Chapman wisely observed, "Simplify, then add lightness." But I think we're still 5-7 years from the 400Wh/kg batteries needed to power a lightweight (1000-1200 kg -- think of a Miata) electric car. A sad case in point is the new Porsche Taycan 4 passenger sedan, with a curb (empty) weight of 5,100 lbs/2295 kg, and gross (max) weight of over 6,300 lbs/2880 kg. The kinetic energy of one of these lead sled's at 150mph terrifies me.
- graycat 7y ago1000 Kg at 150 MPH would terrify me! A little puff of wind and the thing could go airborne and 50 yards down the road land and create a smoking hole! 150+ MPH is GREAT to have, at 5000 to 35,000 feet in the air in a really solid airplane!
- Moto7451 7y agoAs a practical matter that’s true if the body generates lift. F1, Indycar, and Prototype sports cars go faster and weigh between 700 and 900kg depending on the series and spec. Since they’re designed to generate downforce when going forward they work out fine, gust of winds and all. Turning them around backwards at full speed is problematic so they have devices to disrupt the flow of air and loose the lift they’d generate at that angle. If those devices fail... that’s when things get a bit terrifying for the occupant.
- pintxo 7y agoTo illustrate the point: https://youtu.be/e21ZjwZGjiQ https://youtu.be/e21ZjwZGjiQ
- dpark 7y ago> The kinetic energy of one of these lead sled's at 150mph terrifies me. The reality is that a semi-truck loaded up with produce is a bigger risk from the “turns my car into shrapnel in an crash” scenario. Also, do you live in Germany or just near a bunch of extremely reckless and extremely wealthy drivers?
- et2o 7y agoRidiculous comparison on aftermarket tires. Tires are everything for lap times.
- rasz 7y agoby drafting 2/3 of the distance in an 50km endurance race against 2014 Tesla S
- baybal2 7y agoNissan leaf — curb weight 1600 Tesla S — curb weight 2200 There are no other explanations needed