7 ms·

I'll speculate that facebook will never "delete its internal record of your face" as the title states. They're using misleading words to make this sound like a

by d10 7y ago

I'll speculate that facebook will never "delete its internal record of your face" as the title states. They're using misleading words to make this sound like a significant concession, when it isn't. Suppose Alice appears in photos with Bob. And that Carol appears in other photos with the same Bob. Facebook can infer the Alice..Bob..Carol relationships. If Bob "opts-out", facebook will still know that Alice appears in photos with unnamed person, and also that Carol appears with same unnamed person. So they'll infer the Alice..unnamed person..Carol relationships. If, hypothetically, facebook offered Bob the option "do not use my face in your algorithms." Then maybe they wouldn't link Alice and Carol. But all facebook is offering here is "don't associate my face to my account". This cleverly gives facebook some cover. Bob might ask facebook, "don't use my face to surveil my friends", but facebook can say "how could we possibly do that? We don't associate your face with your account, so we can't associate your face with your preference, even if we wanted to."

rhacker 7y ago
We'll end up with a website called "Do Not UseMyFace" and you'll take a picture of your face and upload it to the FCC in an effort to stop RoboFacing.
- sverige 7y ago
  Which will ensure that not only Facebook but also every other social media outlet will now have your face tied to your identity.
  - rhacker 7y ago
    No no you ruined the joke that comes 15 years later!!!!
  - c0vfefe 7y ago
    They might as well call the site "PleaseHackMe."
blancNoir 7y ago
From the article: "When you opt out of facial recognition on Facebook, the company will delete your template, meaning it will have no original reference point for your face and therefore cannot find your face at all." ... When people turn off their face recognition setting, we can no longer create a face template for them for any purpose, including A.I. research,” the spokesperson told OneZero.
- rhacker 7y ago
  I think d10 is saying that, by deleting your face template, they will still have "unnamed person 7749" in 45 different photos, which happen to be YOU, which they won't every say again, but you're still in there, linked up to all those people... possibly creating new relationships between people that don't have the same friends but went to the same wedding, all because you're in both sets of photos.
  - x0x0 7y ago
    Exactly. They're not promising not to create co-occurrence matrices with a specific unknown user as far as I can see.
  - pesenti 7y ago
    No we don't. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20903110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20903110
    - rhacker 7y ago
      Ok, sounds good and I belive you - it is nice hearing from the team directly involved in this project.
- llarsson 7y ago
  Sounds like they'd have to have my face on file so that they'd be able to identify "oh yeah, this is one who has opted out". How else would it work?
pesenti 7y ago
That’s not accurate. If you are not a user or don’t have the FaceRec setting on, we will not create a Face Template and won’t be able to recognize you in pictures. Source/Disclaimer: I work at FB and this feature is managed by my team.
- throwaway8879 7y ago
  Unfortunately, I am unable to trust your words at this moment in time. I'm sure many others will agree.
- toofy 7y ago
  While I desperately want to trust you on a human to human interaction, and I genuinely do want to trust you, we’ve been misled with disingenuous language by companies at FB’s scale so many times for years, I’m finding it difficult to trust FB at all—it isn’t you, at all, it’s Facebook’s and similar companies intentional fogging of language which leads do this distrust. And while I do want to trust you, I can’t trust that the company/industry itself wouldn’t figure out a way to exploit it at a later date :( It really does make me sad that I can’t trust what you’re saying, i think a fundamental part of humanity is wanting that level of trust, and it’s been intentionally exploited.
  - volongoto 7y ago
    I totally agree with you. I will never trust what Facebook says. And not only that. When I look at pesenti's clarifications, the only think I can think of is: "They will probably start safe and really not create any face templates for now (during people's attention is on this topic), but after a few weeks/months (when the topic is no longer discussed) they will start doing it anyway. That is the amount of trust I have for Facebook (and Facebook is not alone in that category). Nothing good can ever come from Facebook.
- echelon 7y ago
  > I work at FB and this feature is managed by my team. How do you feel working at Facebook? Do you feel pressure from your peers on the outside about the moral compass of the company? Maybe you can't answer these things if you aren't using a throwaway account, but I'm very interested in hearing how Facebook employees perceive the company themselves, as well as how they're treated by company outsiders. My impression is that a lot of engineers are opposed to how Facebook operates and that this reputation must make recruiting and retention difficult.

by d10 7y ago

rhacker 7y ago

We'll end up with a website called "Do Not UseMyFace" and you'll take a picture of your face and upload it to the FCC in an effort to stop RoboFacing.

sverige 7y ago
Which will ensure that not only Facebook but also every other social media outlet will now have your face tied to your identity.
- rhacker 7y ago
  No no you ruined the joke that comes 15 years later!!!!
- c0vfefe 7y ago
  They might as well call the site "PleaseHackMe."

blancNoir 7y ago

From the article: "When you opt out of facial recognition on Facebook, the company will delete your template, meaning it will have no original reference point for your face and therefore cannot find your face at all." ... When people turn off their face recognition setting, we can no longer create a face template for them for any purpose, including A.I. research,” the spokesperson told OneZero.

rhacker 7y ago
I think d10 is saying that, by deleting your face template, they will still have "unnamed person 7749" in 45 different photos, which happen to be YOU, which they won't every say again, but you're still in there, linked up to all those people... possibly creating new relationships between people that don't have the same friends but went to the same wedding, all because you're in both sets of photos.
- x0x0 7y ago
  Exactly. They're not promising not to create co-occurrence matrices with a specific unknown user as far as I can see.
- pesenti 7y ago
  No we don't. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20903110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20903110
  - rhacker 7y ago
    Ok, sounds good and I belive you - it is nice hearing from the team directly involved in this project.
llarsson 7y ago
Sounds like they'd have to have my face on file so that they'd be able to identify "oh yeah, this is one who has opted out". How else would it work?

pesenti 7y ago

That’s not accurate. If you are not a user or don’t have the FaceRec setting on, we will not create a Face Template and won’t be able to recognize you in pictures. Source/Disclaimer: I work at FB and this feature is managed by my team.

throwaway8879 7y ago
Unfortunately, I am unable to trust your words at this moment in time. I'm sure many others will agree.
toofy 7y ago
While I desperately want to trust you on a human to human interaction, and I genuinely do want to trust you, we’ve been misled with disingenuous language by companies at FB’s scale so many times for years, I’m finding it difficult to trust FB at all—it isn’t you, at all, it’s Facebook’s and similar companies intentional fogging of language which leads do this distrust. And while I do want to trust you, I can’t trust that the company/industry itself wouldn’t figure out a way to exploit it at a later date :( It really does make me sad that I can’t trust what you’re saying, i think a fundamental part of humanity is wanting that level of trust, and it’s been intentionally exploited.
- volongoto 7y ago
  I totally agree with you. I will never trust what Facebook says. And not only that. When I look at pesenti's clarifications, the only think I can think of is: "They will probably start safe and really not create any face templates for now (during people's attention is on this topic), but after a few weeks/months (when the topic is no longer discussed) they will start doing it anyway. That is the amount of trust I have for Facebook (and Facebook is not alone in that category). Nothing good can ever come from Facebook.
echelon 7y ago
> I work at FB and this feature is managed by my team. How do you feel working at Facebook? Do you feel pressure from your peers on the outside about the moral compass of the company? Maybe you can't answer these things if you aren't using a throwaway account, but I'm very interested in hearing how Facebook employees perceive the company themselves, as well as how they're treated by company outsiders. My impression is that a lot of engineers are opposed to how Facebook operates and that this reputation must make recruiting and retention difficult.