8 ms·

Porsches have never really been about straightline speed. Always about overall performance and a sports-car feeling. I'm guessing they optimized things like p

Porsches have never really been about straightline speed. Always about overall performance and a sports-car feeling. I'm guessing they optimized things like power, gearing and weight placement to offer good acceleration through a range of speeds with amazing handling and decent range at speed.

rconti 7y ago
True, and the Taycan may well be a better car in many ways. But a discussion of the gearbox has nothing to do with handling or sports car feeling. I'm wondering what we're missing here. 5% efficiency improvement at high speeds isn't anything to write home about today. The transmission is a known quantity -- it's just gears, it won't get more efficient as they develop it. The efficiency of the whole system (battery/drivetrain/regen/motor/aero/etc) can be optimized quite a bit going forward, but if the 2-speed transmission will only ever get us a 5% increase, I'm not sure it's worth the added weight and complexity. Obviously Porsche knows what they're doing, and it may be about thermal management on the Autobahn more than about outright efficiency, but I'm skeptical. If this were 2010 I'd say "yeah, obviously Porsche knows something about building a real sedan that you can take on a real highway trip, Tesla has no idea what they're doing". But, having produced actual sedans that actually work, and Porsche going with a more complicated system for 5%.. I don't know what I'm missing.
- elonismycopilot 7y ago
  >True, and the Taycan may well be a better car in many ways. But a discussion of the gearbox has nothing to do with handling or sports car feeling. There isn't a single published metric in which the Performance Model S doesn't trounce the Taycan.
  - Neil44 7y ago
    How about 0-60 or 1/4 mile where you haven’t spent 10 minutes warming the batteries first?
    - elonismycopilot 7y ago
      Not a published metric and Teslas can pre heat anyways. Just more anti Tesla bias from the normies.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    if you're looking for the best car on paper, Porsche is probably not for you.
    - elonismycopilot 7y ago
      Well in terms of looks, charging network, city driving, autopilot, price and drag racing I'll take the Tesla. So far we've just seen a bunch of hand waving about how Taycan is better on the track... looks like there is a Model S being sent to Nurburgring to lay that to rest.
      - steelframe 7y ago
        > looks like there is a Model S being sent to Nurburgring to lay that to rest. It looks like that Model S might just be sitting next to the Nurburgring for a while once it gets there. https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a28942079/tesla-model-s-nurburgring-lap-attempt-porsche-taycan/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a28942079/tesla-mod...
      - leetcrew 7y ago
        sounds like you're the target audience for tesla. nothing wrong with that, but everyone has their own taste. for the money, I'd much rather have the new GT4, but that's neither here nor there.
      - clouddrover 7y ago
        > charging network The charging network available to the Taycan is the combination of different CCS charging network providers. They've been doing roaming deals with each other to simplify charging for their users. For example, Electrify America has roaming agreements with EVgo and ChargePoint: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/evgo-electrify-america-charging-station/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/evgo-electrify-america-ch... Road trips don't seem to be a problem in the Taycan. 408 miles, one 24 minute stop for charging: https://www.carscoops.com/2019/09/porsche-taycan-makes-408-mile-journey-from-niagara-falls-to-nyc/ https://www.carscoops.com/2019/09/porsche-taycan-makes-408-m...
      - davewritescode 7y ago
  - adrr 7y ago
    Nurburgring Ring times. P100D has terrible thermal management and goes into limp mode before completing the course. If people really cared about 0 to 60 times, we see a lot more Dodge Demons on the road instead of 911s and Corvettes. If Porsche can get price point for a regular Taycan below $100k, i'll gladly trade in my Porsche and Tesla for one because it does everything i want. I can drive canyon roads and never have to fill up.
    - elonismycopilot 7y ago
      Nurburing will be put to the test next week. To compare a 2014 model S or even p85 is pointless. Until then it is just another attempt at hand waving and cherry picking from Porsche.
      - dragontamer 7y ago
        > Nurburing will be put to the test next week. Unlikely. The track is fully booked for a while. I know that Musk wants to get an apples-to-apples comparison between the two cars, but Musk needed to start working on this (starting with a Nurburing reservation) months ago. I'm sure they'll get a test-run in within a few months, but there's no way they'll get the info within a week.
      - AndrewBissell 7y ago
        Lots of jeering on Twitter right now as Nürburgring is saying that Tesla does not have a lap reservation for them next week as Musk had claimed. https://twitter.com/RoadandTrack/status/1170044182808977408 https://twitter.com/RoadandTrack/status/1170044182808977408 > Porsche has tons of experience setting fast Nürburgring lap times, and a huge asset in the form of factory racer Lars Kern. The Model S Performance is a quick car, but Tesla has no prior experience attempting to lap the Nürburgring. It's hard to imagine the automaker could go out and beat Porsche on its first visit to the track. Maybe they're hoping Autopilot will set the track record? LOL
    - rconti 7y ago
      Sure, and it's an ancient car, by EV standards. I'd hope that a Porsche that nobody has taken delivery of yet and costs way more is better. Last time I was at the track (in my BMW M car, mind you) we had a couple of Model 3 Performance cars, and a couple of Model S. I could pass the Model S with ease. I couldn't get close to the Model 3 Performance.
  - gburdell3 7y ago
    Does the Taycan overheat and go into limp mode if you take it to the track?
    - kenhwang 7y ago
      The old Model S had a hard time keeping up with a Nissan Leaf on the track. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/16/how-did-a-nissan-leaf-beat-a-tesla-model-s-in-a-race/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/16/how-did-a-nissan-leaf-b...
    - rasz 7y ago
      Does it pop glued coolant lines making you pay for track cleaning like the rest of track oriented Porsches? https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/592328-catastrophic-coolant-hose-coupling-failure-registry.html https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/592328-catastr...
- elihu 7y ago
  A 5% efficiency gain might be a big deal when it comes to motor heat. Electric motors tend to be around 85-90% efficient or so, and if you can get the motor from, say, 85% efficient to 90% efficient, that might translate to a one-third reduction in waste heat.
  - outworlder 7y ago
    > that might translate to a one-third reduction in waste heat. Is that a big deal, though, compared to battery heat? Or is it in the context of a race scenario?
    - amluto 7y ago
      Speculation, since I’m not an expert: The battery is big, so it has high thermal mass and lots of area for cooling. The motor is small. Motors can also easily be thermally limited. A permanent magnet motor that overheats will demagnetize and be destroyed. Induction motors and other non-permanent-magnet motors are less sensitive, but resistance goes up and metals and glues soften at higher temperature.
    - elihu 7y ago
      My understanding is that getting rid of waste heat is one of the main factors that limits how much power you can get out of an electric motor for any length of time. Less heat means you can get up a long steep hill without overheating (or causing the electronics to back off on the motor amperage to avoid damage).
- fossuser 7y ago
  I think the early versions of the original Tesla roadster had gearboxes with multiple speeds, but Elon eventually got rid of it and settled on just having one for later versions of the roadster (and all subsequent Tesla cars). I think they found it didn't give much of an advantage when it did work and that they generally just didn't work very well.
  - fgonzag 7y ago
    And anybody who has driven a Porsche knows what an immaculate steering and transmission feels like. I seriously doubt Porsche would release something that was not up to the standard of the regular vehicles.
    - fossuser 7y ago
      I had the recent boxster and was a fan (though it was stick). I have driven the older “tip-tronic” (I think that was the name) paddle shifters though and they weren’t very good at the time. Supposedly they’ve improved since then though (that was probably 2009 or so).
    - wkearney99 7y ago
      Agreed. Daily driving in my 958 GTS is great. Long highway stretches are fantastic. But it's not until weekend autocrossing that I really get to feel how well tuned a 2-ton SUV can be. Turning in times in the middle of the same pack as the coupes is fun. People that haven't driven a modern Porsche just do not grasp how precise the driving experience can be. It's astounding how well-tuned their vehicles are.
- kenhwang 7y ago
  Mazda dumped a bunch of R&D and complexity into their transmission for "only" a 4-7% (AT)¹ and 1% (MT)² efficiency improvement. I guess in the automotive world, you're fighting for every last %. ¹ https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/skyactiv/skyactiv-drive/ https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/skyactiv/skya... ² https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/skyactiv/skyactiv-mt/ https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/skyactiv/skya...
- fgonzag 7y ago
  Tesla tried to use a two speed transmission back in its Roadster days. They scraped it due to reliability issues. So even Tesla thinks (or thought) that two speed transmissions had technical advantages.
userbinator 7y ago
Comparing Porsche and Tesla shows that the perception of performance applies to EVs too: European performance is more about the handling, while American performance is more about straightline acceleration. The reason for this difference becomes obvious if you compare what the roads are typically like between the two regions.
- fluffything 7y ago
  Live in Germany, and I care about handling, breaking power, and acceleration at rarely >50km/h, and often at >100-130km/h. Acceleration at 0-100km/h makes no sense for any meaningful use of a car here. When I'm driving at >250km/h on the highway and one truck tries to overtake another at 80-90km/h, people driving 130 on the middle lane end up switching to the fast lane, so I have to break down to 100-130 km/h, and re-accelerate back up to >250km/h afterwards. The faster that happens, the less my average speed falls. In Germany at least, one never lands into the highway merging lane at lestt than 60-70km/h, and the normal thing is to be at 50km/h and slowly move towards 80km/h for merging once you are on the merging lane and merge carefully. By the time you finish merging you are already at 120km/h in the slow lane. If you are driving curvy roads, you want good handling so that you don't have to break down to less than 50-60km/h most of the time, and then you want good acceleration from 50-60 up to 100 km/h, and good breaking. You can't drive curvy roads here faster than 100km/h anyways. Nurburgring is a mixture between highway and track-curvy roads (realistic curvy roads in germany are not like that), where a skilled driver with a car with good handling rarely drops below 130km/h in the curves, and is at about 250 km/h on all straight segments except for the very last one. Being able to reach 300km/h in the last segment is nice, but it only makes a dent in the overall lap time and doesn't really help if your car has bad handling. Also, its the last segment of the lap, so if your EV is overheating you'll fail miserably there. The only situation I can imagine in which 0-60 matters is if you are drag racing, and for that, I have a 9.000 EUR BMW S1000R that beats pretty much every single car. Why would anyone pay >80.000 EUR for a drag racing car escapes my comprehension. Why would anyone care about Nurburgring times escapes my comprehension as well. I was once there with the bike, and I almost shit my pants. There is a huge difference between smoothly cruising at 250 km/h in a Germany highway, and driving at 250km/h on Nurburgring. People driving there are insane.

rconti 7y ago

True, and the Taycan may well be a better car in many ways. But a discussion of the gearbox has nothing to do with handling or sports car feeling. I'm wondering what we're missing here. 5% efficiency improvement at high speeds isn't anything to write home about today. The transmission is a known quantity -- it's just gears, it won't get more efficient as they develop it. The efficiency of the whole system (battery/drivetrain/regen/motor/aero/etc) can be optimized quite a bit going forward, but if the 2-speed transmission will only ever get us a 5% increase, I'm not sure it's worth the added weight and complexity. Obviously Porsche knows what they're doing, and it may be about thermal management on the Autobahn more than about outright efficiency, but I'm skeptical. If this were 2010 I'd say "yeah, obviously Porsche knows something about building a real sedan that you can take on a real highway trip, Tesla has no idea what they're doing". But, having produced actual sedans that actually work, and Porsche going with a more complicated system for 5%.. I don't know what I'm missing.

elonismycopilot 7y ago
>True, and the Taycan may well be a better car in many ways. But a discussion of the gearbox has nothing to do with handling or sports car feeling. There isn't a single published metric in which the Performance Model S doesn't trounce the Taycan.
- Neil44 7y ago
  How about 0-60 or 1/4 mile where you haven’t spent 10 minutes warming the batteries first?
  - elonismycopilot 7y ago
    Not a published metric and Teslas can pre heat anyways. Just more anti Tesla bias from the normies.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  if you're looking for the best car on paper, Porsche is probably not for you.
  - elonismycopilot 7y ago
    Well in terms of looks, charging network, city driving, autopilot, price and drag racing I'll take the Tesla. So far we've just seen a bunch of hand waving about how Taycan is better on the track... looks like there is a Model S being sent to Nurburgring to lay that to rest.
    - steelframe 7y ago
      > looks like there is a Model S being sent to Nurburgring to lay that to rest. It looks like that Model S might just be sitting next to the Nurburgring for a while once it gets there. https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a28942079/tesla-model-s-nurburgring-lap-attempt-porsche-taycan/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a28942079/tesla-mod...
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      sounds like you're the target audience for tesla. nothing wrong with that, but everyone has their own taste. for the money, I'd much rather have the new GT4, but that's neither here nor there.
    - clouddrover 7y ago
      > charging network The charging network available to the Taycan is the combination of different CCS charging network providers. They've been doing roaming deals with each other to simplify charging for their users. For example, Electrify America has roaming agreements with EVgo and ChargePoint: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/evgo-electrify-america-charging-station/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/evgo-electrify-america-ch... Road trips don't seem to be a problem in the Taycan. 408 miles, one 24 minute stop for charging: https://www.carscoops.com/2019/09/porsche-taycan-makes-408-mile-journey-from-niagara-falls-to-nyc/ https://www.carscoops.com/2019/09/porsche-taycan-makes-408-m...
    - davewritescode 7y ago
- adrr 7y ago
  Nurburgring Ring times. P100D has terrible thermal management and goes into limp mode before completing the course. If people really cared about 0 to 60 times, we see a lot more Dodge Demons on the road instead of 911s and Corvettes. If Porsche can get price point for a regular Taycan below $100k, i'll gladly trade in my Porsche and Tesla for one because it does everything i want. I can drive canyon roads and never have to fill up.
  - elonismycopilot 7y ago
    Nurburing will be put to the test next week. To compare a 2014 model S or even p85 is pointless. Until then it is just another attempt at hand waving and cherry picking from Porsche.
    - dragontamer 7y ago
      > Nurburing will be put to the test next week. Unlikely. The track is fully booked for a while. I know that Musk wants to get an apples-to-apples comparison between the two cars, but Musk needed to start working on this (starting with a Nurburing reservation) months ago. I'm sure they'll get a test-run in within a few months, but there's no way they'll get the info within a week.
    - AndrewBissell 7y ago
      Lots of jeering on Twitter right now as Nürburgring is saying that Tesla does not have a lap reservation for them next week as Musk had claimed. https://twitter.com/RoadandTrack/status/1170044182808977408 https://twitter.com/RoadandTrack/status/1170044182808977408 > Porsche has tons of experience setting fast Nürburgring lap times, and a huge asset in the form of factory racer Lars Kern. The Model S Performance is a quick car, but Tesla has no prior experience attempting to lap the Nürburgring. It's hard to imagine the automaker could go out and beat Porsche on its first visit to the track. Maybe they're hoping Autopilot will set the track record? LOL
  - rconti 7y ago
    Sure, and it's an ancient car, by EV standards. I'd hope that a Porsche that nobody has taken delivery of yet and costs way more is better. Last time I was at the track (in my BMW M car, mind you) we had a couple of Model 3 Performance cars, and a couple of Model S. I could pass the Model S with ease. I couldn't get close to the Model 3 Performance.
- gburdell3 7y ago
  Does the Taycan overheat and go into limp mode if you take it to the track?
  - kenhwang 7y ago
    The old Model S had a hard time keeping up with a Nissan Leaf on the track. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/16/how-did-a-nissan-leaf-beat-a-tesla-model-s-in-a-race/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/16/how-did-a-nissan-leaf-b...
  - rasz 7y ago
    Does it pop glued coolant lines making you pay for track cleaning like the rest of track oriented Porsches? https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/592328-catastrophic-coolant-hose-coupling-failure-registry.html https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/592328-catastr...
elihu 7y ago
A 5% efficiency gain might be a big deal when it comes to motor heat. Electric motors tend to be around 85-90% efficient or so, and if you can get the motor from, say, 85% efficient to 90% efficient, that might translate to a one-third reduction in waste heat.
- outworlder 7y ago
  > that might translate to a one-third reduction in waste heat. Is that a big deal, though, compared to battery heat? Or is it in the context of a race scenario?
  - amluto 7y ago
    Speculation, since I’m not an expert: The battery is big, so it has high thermal mass and lots of area for cooling. The motor is small. Motors can also easily be thermally limited. A permanent magnet motor that overheats will demagnetize and be destroyed. Induction motors and other non-permanent-magnet motors are less sensitive, but resistance goes up and metals and glues soften at higher temperature.
  - elihu 7y ago
    My understanding is that getting rid of waste heat is one of the main factors that limits how much power you can get out of an electric motor for any length of time. Less heat means you can get up a long steep hill without overheating (or causing the electronics to back off on the motor amperage to avoid damage).
fossuser 7y ago
I think the early versions of the original Tesla roadster had gearboxes with multiple speeds, but Elon eventually got rid of it and settled on just having one for later versions of the roadster (and all subsequent Tesla cars). I think they found it didn't give much of an advantage when it did work and that they generally just didn't work very well.
- fgonzag 7y ago
  And anybody who has driven a Porsche knows what an immaculate steering and transmission feels like. I seriously doubt Porsche would release something that was not up to the standard of the regular vehicles.
  - fossuser 7y ago
    I had the recent boxster and was a fan (though it was stick). I have driven the older “tip-tronic” (I think that was the name) paddle shifters though and they weren’t very good at the time. Supposedly they’ve improved since then though (that was probably 2009 or so).
  - wkearney99 7y ago
    Agreed. Daily driving in my 958 GTS is great. Long highway stretches are fantastic. But it's not until weekend autocrossing that I really get to feel how well tuned a 2-ton SUV can be. Turning in times in the middle of the same pack as the coupes is fun. People that haven't driven a modern Porsche just do not grasp how precise the driving experience can be. It's astounding how well-tuned their vehicles are.
kenhwang 7y ago
Mazda dumped a bunch of R&D and complexity into their transmission for "only" a 4-7% (AT)¹ and 1% (MT)² efficiency improvement. I guess in the automotive world, you're fighting for every last %. ¹ https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/skyactiv/skyactiv-drive/ https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/skyactiv/skya... ² https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/skyactiv/skyactiv-mt/ https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/skyactiv/skya...
fgonzag 7y ago
Tesla tried to use a two speed transmission back in its Roadster days. They scraped it due to reliability issues. So even Tesla thinks (or thought) that two speed transmissions had technical advantages.

userbinator 7y ago

Comparing Porsche and Tesla shows that the perception of performance applies to EVs too: European performance is more about the handling, while American performance is more about straightline acceleration. The reason for this difference becomes obvious if you compare what the roads are typically like between the two regions.

fluffything 7y ago
Live in Germany, and I care about handling, breaking power, and acceleration at rarely >50km/h, and often at >100-130km/h. Acceleration at 0-100km/h makes no sense for any meaningful use of a car here. When I'm driving at >250km/h on the highway and one truck tries to overtake another at 80-90km/h, people driving 130 on the middle lane end up switching to the fast lane, so I have to break down to 100-130 km/h, and re-accelerate back up to >250km/h afterwards. The faster that happens, the less my average speed falls. In Germany at least, one never lands into the highway merging lane at lestt than 60-70km/h, and the normal thing is to be at 50km/h and slowly move towards 80km/h for merging once you are on the merging lane and merge carefully. By the time you finish merging you are already at 120km/h in the slow lane. If you are driving curvy roads, you want good handling so that you don't have to break down to less than 50-60km/h most of the time, and then you want good acceleration from 50-60 up to 100 km/h, and good breaking. You can't drive curvy roads here faster than 100km/h anyways. Nurburgring is a mixture between highway and track-curvy roads (realistic curvy roads in germany are not like that), where a skilled driver with a car with good handling rarely drops below 130km/h in the curves, and is at about 250 km/h on all straight segments except for the very last one. Being able to reach 300km/h in the last segment is nice, but it only makes a dent in the overall lap time and doesn't really help if your car has bad handling. Also, its the last segment of the lap, so if your EV is overheating you'll fail miserably there. The only situation I can imagine in which 0-60 matters is if you are drag racing, and for that, I have a 9.000 EUR BMW S1000R that beats pretty much every single car. Why would anyone pay >80.000 EUR for a drag racing car escapes my comprehension. Why would anyone care about Nurburgring times escapes my comprehension as well. I was once there with the bike, and I almost shit my pants. There is a huge difference between smoothly cruising at 250 km/h in a Germany highway, and driving at 250km/h on Nurburgring. People driving there are insane.