7 ms·

Phaistos Disc

44 points by cookingoils 7y ago

lihaciudaniel 7y ago
Reminds me of Antikythera mechanism
bediger4000 7y ago
This is one of the very few real archaeological oddities: Phaistos Disk, Antikythera Mechanism, Lenses of Gottland, maybe those jade funereal suits from China that really seem to indicate "lost technologies" really existed, and maybe if they'd not been lost, things would have turned out differently.
- jacobolus 7y ago
  Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebra_sky_disk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebra_sky_disk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hat
  - coldtea 7y ago
    Or: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery
    - credit_guy 7y ago
      You should also mention the Pylos Combat Agate [1]. For those who haven’t seen this before, if you open the wikipedia link on a cell phone, the image is already higher than life size. Watch and be amazed. This incredibly detailed work of art/ jewelry was created 200 years before the reign of Ramses II. Whatever technology people had at the time that allowed them to make this, it died with the Bronze Age Collapse (or before), and it took people one thousand years to get to the same level of sophistication. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos_Combat_Agate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos_Combat_Agate
ocdtrekkie 7y ago
Honestly, my biggest question is: Why did this get its own Unicode block? It's weird that symbols found on literally one object in history have gotten their own unique Unicode assignments.
- amelius 7y ago
  Because the archeologists need these glyphs in their papers.
  - paulryanrogers 7y ago
    Why not a vector image for super niches like these?
    - tempguy9999 7y ago
      Prob because a vector image would have visual content but no semantic content. That is to say, no identity (a number), no collation (ordering), no abstract representation ("PHAISTOS_PUNK_WITH_LONG_NOSE_AND_MOHAWK")[0]. Also if you already had unicode machiinery, which you will if you're writing a paper, you'd now need a 2nd mechanism for rendering; the SVG you mentioned. Unicode is meant to be universal so it makes sense to me. [0] which is indeed on the disk, although the minoans likely didn't call it that.
      - AceJohnny2 7y ago
        Do the potential users of that codepage know to use it?
        tempguy9999 7y ago
        I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. it's unicode so AFAIU codepages don't apply. Am I misreading you?
        AceJohnny2 7y ago
codesnik 7y ago
aand of course its symbols are in unicode already. I've heard that not every modern bengali inscription could be represented in unicode.
jbob2000 7y ago
It looks hastily made, I like the theory that it’s a prayer or hymn. A congregation would needs hundreds of these made whenever you had a new hymn or prayer. You have to rotate it to read it, so presumably, as you are reciting the prayer or the song, you rotate it to follow along.
grumblepeet 7y ago
Looks like a good game, all you need are some dice and a couple of counters.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  And rules
sandworm101 7y ago
I think it is a contract of some sort. I think these are personal seals, each group representing an individual. This might be some sort of guild or religious group where members were identified with a series of random symbols, akin to a social insurance or military service number. Maybe people took home smaller representations so that in the future they could be identified as having been part of the group. If that is the case, this cannot be deciphered any more than one might decipher a list of phone numbers.
- wavefunction 7y ago
  I dunno, a list of phone numbers could tell you quite a bit. Are they roman numerals or arab? How many digits? Are they standard length sequences or variable? Are there any repeating patterns in the numeric sequences or groupings?
personjerry 7y ago
Imagine you are a child, drawing random images out of your imagination. Fast forward thousand years and the [clay disc|hard drive] you were working on is found by archaeologists and they derive your entire culture from the random mohawk face you thought up.
- jjtheblunt 7y ago
  I thought the same exact thing. Cookie symbol? A ghost. The imagery looks modern, and playful.
cookingoils 7y ago
For those interested in learning more about the disc, I would recommend The Phaistos Disk: An Account of its Unsolved Mystery by Thomas Balistier. It does a good job of explaining the various explanations of the disc and it’s history.
jjtheblunt 7y ago
Doesn't that Phaistos disc's symbols look awfully like what a modern (Western, at least) young person, just playing, would end up with? Chocolate chip cookie symbol? Ghost symbol? And so on? If it's indeed really old, how very interesting.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Doesn't that Phaistos disc's symbols look awfully like what a modern (Western, at least) young person, just playing, would end up with? Only in the sense that countless other picture based scripts (e.g. in Egypt, Latin America, and so on), look like that... >If it's indeed really old This is not under dispute by any archeologist.
- ncmncm 7y ago
  Cookie is interpreted as a shield, ghost as an ox skin. Really, getting into the mindset of people at the eve of civilization helps.
JoeDaDude 7y ago
I find the theory that it is a game especially intriguing. In ancient times, games were used as divination methods, a way to know the will of the gods [1]. The game theory explains many things, such as the uniqueness of the symbols and the spiral pattern. Board games, like language, music, and religion, have been created in every culture [2] [3], but physical evidence is very scarce. Written evidence is even more lacking. There are games we know of, but know very little of how they were played or used (e.g.: Senet) [4]. Could the Phaistos disc be a rare piece of physical evidence? An entire book has been written about the Phaistos disk as board game [5]. I can't speak to the specific theories/guesses made in the book, but the notion that the disc is a game seems very plausible to this casual observer. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Games-Gods-Ancient-Systems/dp/087728752X/ref=sr_1_12?keywords=board+games+ancient&qid=1567635148&s=books&sr=1-12 https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Games-Gods-Ancient-Systems/dp/... [2] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2688609-ancient-board-games-in-perspective https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2688609-ancient-board-ga... [3] https://www.amazon.com/Board-Table-Games-Many-Civilizations/dp/0486238555/ref=sr_1_10?keywords=board+games+ancient&qid=1567635629&s=books&sr=1-10 https://www.amazon.com/Board-Table-Games-Many-Civilizations/... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senet#Gameplay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senet#Gameplay [5] http://phaistosgame.com/ http://phaistosgame.com/
- jacobolus 7y ago
  There are also a lot of old boards found by archaeologists which are assumed to be game boards but might have instead (or also) been counting boards (abacuses) used for performing calculations. I’m fairly convinced (though I’m not an expert and it’s hard to be sure about ancient artifacts without documentary corroboration) that backgammon, mancala, and chess boards were originally used as calculation tools. Maybe senet too.
tiborsaas 7y ago
I've seen it in Heraklion a week ago it was really interesting to see. We also speculated a lot about it with my girlfriend :) My ideas were - it's a showcase of different symbols in the workshop, but why repeat them then? - a diary, a plan, a calendar - random doodling :) But it's definitely one of the oldest compact discs out there.
- cookingoils 7y ago
  That’s cool. I was there two days ago. Really amazing to see it in person just for the sense of scale. It feels like it was made for just one or two people to hold. Wow, I was thinking along the same lines. I thought it could be a teaching tool. Calendar or some sort of template also seems plausible.
coldtea 7y ago
Apparently, it's quite solved atm (the last attempt mentioned)? They're missing terms, but it's basically a hymn to a goddess, or so this specialist says: https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/2018/02/07/gareth-owens-50-phaistos-disk-deciphered/ https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/2018/02/07/gareth-owens-50...

44 points by cookingoils 7y ago

Reminds me of Antikythera mechanism

This is one of the very few real archaeological oddities: Phaistos Disk, Antikythera Mechanism, Lenses of Gottland, maybe those jade funereal suits from China that really seem to indicate "lost technologies" really existed, and maybe if they'd not been lost, things would have turned out differently.

jacobolus 7y ago
Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebra_sky_disk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebra_sky_disk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hat
- coldtea 7y ago
  Or: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery
  - credit_guy 7y ago
    You should also mention the Pylos Combat Agate [1]. For those who haven’t seen this before, if you open the wikipedia link on a cell phone, the image is already higher than life size. Watch and be amazed. This incredibly detailed work of art/ jewelry was created 200 years before the reign of Ramses II. Whatever technology people had at the time that allowed them to make this, it died with the Bronze Age Collapse (or before), and it took people one thousand years to get to the same level of sophistication. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos_Combat_Agate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos_Combat_Agate

ocdtrekkie 7y ago

Honestly, my biggest question is: Why did this get its own Unicode block? It's weird that symbols found on literally one object in history have gotten their own unique Unicode assignments.

amelius 7y ago
Because the archeologists need these glyphs in their papers.
- paulryanrogers 7y ago
  Why not a vector image for super niches like these?
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    Prob because a vector image would have visual content but no semantic content. That is to say, no identity (a number), no collation (ordering), no abstract representation ("PHAISTOS_PUNK_WITH_LONG_NOSE_AND_MOHAWK")[0]. Also if you already had unicode machiinery, which you will if you're writing a paper, you'd now need a 2nd mechanism for rendering; the SVG you mentioned. Unicode is meant to be universal so it makes sense to me. [0] which is indeed on the disk, although the minoans likely didn't call it that.
    - AceJohnny2 7y ago
      Do the potential users of that codepage know to use it?
      - tempguy9999 7y ago
        I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. it's unicode so AFAIU codepages don't apply. Am I misreading you?
        AceJohnny2 7y ago

codesnik 7y ago

aand of course its symbols are in unicode already. I've heard that not every modern bengali inscription could be represented in unicode.

jbob2000 7y ago

It looks hastily made, I like the theory that it’s a prayer or hymn. A congregation would needs hundreds of these made whenever you had a new hymn or prayer. You have to rotate it to read it, so presumably, as you are reciting the prayer or the song, you rotate it to follow along.

grumblepeet 7y ago

Looks like a good game, all you need are some dice and a couple of counters.

tempguy9999 7y ago
And rules

sandworm101 7y ago

I think it is a contract of some sort. I think these are personal seals, each group representing an individual. This might be some sort of guild or religious group where members were identified with a series of random symbols, akin to a social insurance or military service number. Maybe people took home smaller representations so that in the future they could be identified as having been part of the group. If that is the case, this cannot be deciphered any more than one might decipher a list of phone numbers.

wavefunction 7y ago
I dunno, a list of phone numbers could tell you quite a bit. Are they roman numerals or arab? How many digits? Are they standard length sequences or variable? Are there any repeating patterns in the numeric sequences or groupings?

personjerry 7y ago

Imagine you are a child, drawing random images out of your imagination. Fast forward thousand years and the [clay disc|hard drive] you were working on is found by archaeologists and they derive your entire culture from the random mohawk face you thought up.

jjtheblunt 7y ago
I thought the same exact thing. Cookie symbol? A ghost. The imagery looks modern, and playful.

cookingoils 7y ago

For those interested in learning more about the disc, I would recommend The Phaistos Disk: An Account of its Unsolved Mystery by Thomas Balistier. It does a good job of explaining the various explanations of the disc and it’s history.

jjtheblunt 7y ago

Doesn't that Phaistos disc's symbols look awfully like what a modern (Western, at least) young person, just playing, would end up with? Chocolate chip cookie symbol? Ghost symbol? And so on? If it's indeed really old, how very interesting.

coldtea 7y ago
>Doesn't that Phaistos disc's symbols look awfully like what a modern (Western, at least) young person, just playing, would end up with? Only in the sense that countless other picture based scripts (e.g. in Egypt, Latin America, and so on), look like that... >If it's indeed really old This is not under dispute by any archeologist.
ncmncm 7y ago
Cookie is interpreted as a shield, ghost as an ox skin. Really, getting into the mindset of people at the eve of civilization helps.

JoeDaDude 7y ago

I find the theory that it is a game especially intriguing. In ancient times, games were used as divination methods, a way to know the will of the gods [1]. The game theory explains many things, such as the uniqueness of the symbols and the spiral pattern. Board games, like language, music, and religion, have been created in every culture [2] [3], but physical evidence is very scarce. Written evidence is even more lacking. There are games we know of, but know very little of how they were played or used (e.g.: Senet) [4]. Could the Phaistos disc be a rare piece of physical evidence? An entire book has been written about the Phaistos disk as board game [5]. I can't speak to the specific theories/guesses made in the book, but the notion that the disc is a game seems very plausible to this casual observer. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Games-Gods-Ancient-Systems/dp/087728752X/ref=sr_1_12?keywords=board+games+ancient&qid=1567635148&s=books&sr=1-12 https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Games-Gods-Ancient-Systems/dp/... [2] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2688609-ancient-board-games-in-perspective https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2688609-ancient-board-ga... [3] https://www.amazon.com/Board-Table-Games-Many-Civilizations/dp/0486238555/ref=sr_1_10?keywords=board+games+ancient&qid=1567635629&s=books&sr=1-10 https://www.amazon.com/Board-Table-Games-Many-Civilizations/... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senet#Gameplay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senet#Gameplay [5] http://phaistosgame.com/ http://phaistosgame.com/

jacobolus 7y ago
There are also a lot of old boards found by archaeologists which are assumed to be game boards but might have instead (or also) been counting boards (abacuses) used for performing calculations. I’m fairly convinced (though I’m not an expert and it’s hard to be sure about ancient artifacts without documentary corroboration) that backgammon, mancala, and chess boards were originally used as calculation tools. Maybe senet too.

tiborsaas 7y ago

I've seen it in Heraklion a week ago it was really interesting to see. We also speculated a lot about it with my girlfriend :) My ideas were - it's a showcase of different symbols in the workshop, but why repeat them then? - a diary, a plan, a calendar - random doodling :) But it's definitely one of the oldest compact discs out there.

cookingoils 7y ago
That’s cool. I was there two days ago. Really amazing to see it in person just for the sense of scale. It feels like it was made for just one or two people to hold. Wow, I was thinking along the same lines. I thought it could be a teaching tool. Calendar or some sort of template also seems plausible.

coldtea 7y ago

Apparently, it's quite solved atm (the last attempt mentioned)? They're missing terms, but it's basically a hymn to a goddess, or so this specialist says: https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/2018/02/07/gareth-owens-50-phaistos-disk-deciphered/ https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/2018/02/07/gareth-owens-50...