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The effects of Portal 2 and Lumosity on cognitive and noncognitive skills
- gallerdude 7y agoI still maintain Portal 2 has the greatest narrative in all of video games - it’s expressed purely in gameplay, it’s funny as hell, and has a surprisingly deep emotional core.
- akhilcacharya 7y agoIt’s also got a cool space core!
- vinylkey 7y agoWhat's your favorite thing about space? (Mine is space)
- jjoonathan 7y agoNobody is going to space, mate.
- cameronbrown 7y ago"Dad! I'm in space! [low-pitched voice] I'm proud of you, son." https://i1.theportalwiki.net/img/f/f0/Space_core_babble19.wav https://i1.theportalwiki.net/img/f/f0/Space_core_babble19.wa... This game's dialogue is still unsurpassed.
- zeroxfe 7y agoMonkey Island disagrees!
- CobrastanJorji 7y agoThis is, of course, a matter for debate, but as a huge Monkey Island fan, I think Portal 2 is funnier, at least in part because of the excellent delivery of the lines. Regardless of which title you think is better, though, I think the morale is clear. Never pay more than $20 for a computer game.
- seph-reed 7y agoIt's not my favorite game, nor the favorite of anyone I know, but I'd be willing to guess it's worth top 3 (or at least 5) for almost everyone. Which is to say, in a first-past-the-post scenario it wouldn't win, but in a run-off-vote scenario it may very well be the best game ever made.
- DEADBEEFC0FFEE 7y agoIt's really not useful to make top n lists. As soon as there disagreement, distinctions and catagories evolve. Its probably sufficient to simple state you enjoyed the game, and to highlite some aspects you enjoyed.
- seph-reed 7y agoTop N lists are just another tool for organizing thought. You're right that they aren't a silver bullet of truth.
- ehsankia 7y agoThe Portal series is definitely my favorite. Alright may tied with The Witness.
- Wowfunhappy 7y agoIt’s not that the story is anything special—far from it—but the storytelling is masterful done. I desperately want more games like that. I will say, I played Vader Immortal recently and it comes closer than anything else I’ve tried, though it’s still not quite as good.
- moron4hire 7y agoA neuroscientist friend of mine says Lumosity is not just junk science, but junk implementation of junk science. I would imagine just about any real puzzle solving task would have a greater impact on cognitive ability than the specific case of Lumosity.
- neves 7y agoAnd Portal certainly is more fun than any Lumosity game. Educators don't usually consider fun to be important for learning.
- inetknght 7y ago> Educators don't usually consider fun to be important for learning. That's quite unfortunate. I think fun is absolutely crucial to truly learn something.
- SamReidHughes 7y agoWell, you're wrong. You can learn stuff "truly" without it being fun. There is a lot of stuff people learn without having fun doing it.
- logfromblammo 7y agoI think my only hope for learning Spanish at this point would be a game that starts out in a Texaslike setting, with the storyline missions sending the player into progressively more Spanish-speaking situations, with more Hispanic-specific cultural elements, until complete immersion occurs. Start out ordering tacos for lunch. End by smuggling someone out of Venezuela via the Orinoco in a narco-submarine, with paramilitary groups ready to execute you if you mistranslate something.
- inferiorhuman 7y agoI remember the ah-ha moment while interviewing at Lumosity was when the CEO burst in the room and excitedly told me how much he wanted me to make their site "Web 2.0". My heart sank and I noped out of there pretty quickly. A junk implementation of sound science sounds about right to me.
- thrillgore 7y agoAll the marketing for Lumosity reeks of unclaimed benefits/snake oil. At least Portal 2 is objectively fun and rewarding narratively to play.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y agoIt increases your "hours spent listening to J.K. Simmons rant" count, and that's way more important than poorly sourced "neuroplasticity" training.
- javajosh 7y agoOk, HN seems to frown on tomfoolery, but amen: JK Simmons was absolutely the best part of the Portal 2 story.
- bhhaskin 7y agoA study of only 8 hours isn't much of a study at all.
- Hamuko 7y agoValve should make longer games.
- knolan 7y agoI’d be happy if they made actual games again.
- grenoire 7y agoExcuse me, Dota Underlords? The absolute timeless classic? /s
- cameronbrown 7y agoMan I really hope HLVR ships. The community have found evidence of 30+ (yep) axed games from Valve over the past decade.
- ocdtrekkie 7y agoMost studies probably use much less than 8 hours of a respondent's time, I believe. The greater issue is the use of only 77 test subjects to begin with.
- Donald 7y agoRead the paper, the authors did a power analysis to arrive at their participant sample size. ( http://myweb.fsu.edu/vshute/pdf/portal1.pdf http://myweb.fsu.edu/vshute/pdf/portal1.pdf ) > We needed at least 34 participants per condition to estimate moderate effect sizes in our analyses, with a power of .90.
- mattkrause 7y agoWhat’s the problem? The study is crazy-well powered (0.90), which is way above the “industry-standard” (and often not achieved) 0.80.
- boringg 7y agosample size please - how is this even publishable?
- domnomnom 7y agoCentral Limit Theorem
- robbrit 7y agoFrom the article: > In this study, we tested 77 undergraduates who were randomly assigned to play either a popular video game (Portal 2) or a popular brain training game (Lumosity) for 8 h.
- boringg 7y agoSorry my comment should have been clearer. I wasn't actually asking for the sample size - i was making a statement that the sample size was ridiculously small as to be irrelevant. It was more like an eye roll. Thank you for responding to my literal comment snd reminding me to be clearer in my messages :)
- robbrit 7y ago77 is a large enough sample size to produce statistically significant results in a lot of cases, depending on the problem. For example, using 77 men and women, you could easily see a statistically significant difference in height between genders. This paper is pretty simple, it's just a straight-forward before-and-after test. They are holding a lot of factors constant and not doing an observational study, so 77 is actually a fine sample size for something like this.
- tir 7y agoLiterally the first line of the abstract.
- mattkrause 7y agoThere's a power analysis in the paper showing that they've got plenty of statistical power. (Estimated N=34 subjects for 90% power, but they used 77 subjects instead).
- ChrisMarshallNY 7y agoI would kill for Portal 3... sigh...
- whitebread 7y agoI would peacefully protest for HL3
- SketchySeaBeast 7y agoIs there anyone at Valve who still builds games?
- magashna 7y agoRumor is they have a big VR game coming out soon.
- foota 7y agoIf only they had a puzzle franchise begging for a third game that would be amazing (okay, maybe a little nauseating) in VR.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y agoA little nauseating? It was giving me motion sickness on just my screen! If they give us Half Life 3 in the form of a VR game I'll be extraordinarily disappointed.
- foota 7y agoI'll take anything at this point
- cameronbrown 7y agoValve have stated over and over that teleport locomotion is what they believe is the correct one. Portal's mechanic is about movement as much as portals - it simply wouldn't work in this environment. The Portal/Half-Life universe (they're the same) itself? Absolutely.
- wlesieutre 7y agoThe idea of rounding up a bunch of test subjects and having them play Portal to collect data on them is hilarious to me. Hello and welcome to the Aperture Science computer-aided enrichment center. I wonder if there was cake at the end.
- domnomnom 7y agoThe tests for problem solving used were: Raven's progressive matrices, Insight Test, Remote Association Test Spatial cognition: Mental rotation test, Spatial Orientation Test, Virtual spatial navigation assessment
- duxup 7y agoCould it be that Portal players felt they were more successful in their games than Lumosity players felt? I know that successfully completing a task(s) just before a test will result in better performance on tests, and failing will result in poorer performance.
- ChrisClark 7y agoThey aren't asking how a player felt about Portal or Luminosity. It looks like they did some standardized tests after they played the respective games.
- mikey_p 7y agoYes, but parent is arguing that the feeling could be what is affecting the test results more than any cognitive abilities or enhancements as a result of playing the game. I.e. if you "won" the Lumosity games (which normally get harder until you fail) and "lost" at Portal, is the effect the same or is it reversed? A very valid question indeed.
- duxup 7y agoHow they feel could very well matter. I forget the behavior / explanation but if you take two groups and have one successfully complete tasks, and another unsuccessfully, and then test them both you'll find the folks who just previous to the test successfully completed tasks will do better than those who were unsuccessful.
- sdinsn 7y ago> I know that successfully completing a task(s) just before a test will result in better performance on tests From his comment
- hcs 7y agoThey did ask how the players felt, because the GP has a good point, and included it in the analysis: "3.4.3. Enjoyment item After participants in each condition finished their 8 h of gameplay and before the posttest battery of tests was administered, we presented an item to players concerning their enjoyment of the assigned game. This was a single self-reported response to the statement: “I enjoyed playing (Portal 2 or Lumosity).” The 5-point Likert scale ranged from 1 (strongly disagree) to 5 (strongly agree)." "The measures were controlled for player enjoyment in all models (when significant) to rule out any effect enjoyment might have in learning gains. That is, based on participants' responses to the statement about enjoying their assigned game, for Portal 2 participants, enjoyment M = 4.32; SD = 0.93, while for the Lumosity participants, M = 3.50; SD = 1.05. The difference between the two groups' enjoyment is significant, with a strong advantage for the Portal 2 group: F(1,73) = 12.69; p < .001. Cohen's d = .83, which is a large effect size." "Enjoyment was a significant covariate in the VSNA ANCOVA model"
- bitwize 7y agoValve playtests the shit out of their games. A lot of Portal's theming is based on their extensive testing culture and the ways they've developed to manipulate the player through testing. For example, the Weighted Companion Cube came about because they wanted a level where you solve puzzles while carrying an object. But the playtesters kept leaving the damn object behind. So Valve's solution was to tell them it was a "character" they had to care for.
- blankaccount 7y agoDo you have a source for more of these stories?
- madrox 7y agoI don't know where the parent got their info, but I learned this through the original Portal's in-game "developer commentary" system. If you turn on the dev commentary in Portal they talk about this fact during that level.
- squeaky-clean 7y agoPortal 1 and 2 have amazing in-game developer commentary modes. Would highly recommend a replay with the commentary enabled to anyone interested in game design at all. Can't watch with sound at the moment to confirm it's a good video, but this comes up in youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0uVg9nuaS0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0uVg9nuaS0
- DanielleMolloy 7y agoSo carefully selected video games are the real brain training. Who would have thought.. The following finding also continues to be interesting: “More remarkably, we found that playing an action video game can virtually eliminate this gender difference in spatial attention and simultaneously decrease the gender disparity in mental rotation ability, a higher-level process in spatial cognition.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17894600/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17894600/
- bjornjaja 7y agoSome of this stuff is common sense—it’s amazing what length people go researching certain subjects. For instance, if your brain does a particular type of action (like tracking fast moving objects) it gets better at doing that in general. Same thing with studying math, people get better at solving problems. Now, if those problems being solved in games or otherwise are limited in scope, well so are the gains achievable. So, the question then is, how to APPLY that to a general set of problems. Not how it affects the brain doing a particular task. For instance, teach a man to fish salmon then ask him to take that knowledge and figure out how to catch whales or even plastic pellets in the ocean? Or how about if one study math how can it increase ones art ability or vice-versa? It changes perceptions etc. Seems common sense to me I dunno.
- whatshisface 7y agoIt's not obvious that it could eliminate the gender gap. If men start higher, why couldn't they stay in the lead as both sexes improved? That's why you have to do the research.
- oh_sigh 7y agoI wonder if any researchers controlled for video game playing time when doing these spatial rotation studies between genders.
- bhelkey 7y agoThe point of studding something like this is to make sure that common sense is correct. A lot of things sound right but are dead wrong.
- ThePhysicist 7y agoNot surprised by this as Portals puzzles combine so many different abilities like abstract reasoning, planning, dexterity and reflexes. Now, the question is of course if other 3D video games (e.g. DOOM) have similar health benefits. I'd say Portal is a pretty "intellectual" game compared to most shooters, so I'd expect the overall effect to vary. Navigation in three-dimensional environments seems to be quite a complex task in itself though, so maybe that's already where most of the effect is coming from?
- jplayer01 7y agoAgreed. Wish there were more games out there like Portal, but it seems to be entirely unique in the industry.
- Qwertystop 7y agoThere's others. Antichamber is probably the biggest I've heard of? Taking "like Portal" more broadly as "3D first-person environmental/traversal puzzle games", maybe Outer Wilds.
- MayeulC 7y agoOh, there are more. Out of my mind, I can cite The Talos Principle, Qube and Antichamber. Maybe in slightly different categories: Fez (~2D), Mirror's edge (parkour), infinifactory. The Stanley Parable as well, perhaps? Then there are numerous 2D ones, and I'm pretty sure I am forgetting some that I have in my library. Portal isn't unique, but it has one of the most dynamic and entertaining narratives. It also spearheaded a whole lot of "portal clones", which was nice to see, as I quite like those puzzle games.
- thomasfortes 7y agoAbout 2d ones, I would recommend mari0, a fan game that mix portal and mario. https://stabyourself.net/mari0/ https://stabyourself.net/mari0/ Also, the other stabyourself games are great too.
- MauranKilom 7y ago
- ngngngng 7y agoAnecdotal, but I completely agree that Portal supercharges your brain, and I've believed this for years. Back around 2011 when portal 2 came out we had a family reunion. I had been playing a lot of Portal at the time. One of my uncles broke out one of those brain teaser type metal ring puzzles where you have to pull the rings apart. It made it's way around the room as we talked and no one could figure it out. As soon as it came to me, I saw clearly exactly what needed to happen to solve it, and within seconds it was solved. I still think it must have been all the Portal 2 I had been playing.
- nurettin 7y agoPeople who have played a funny, pretty looking and relaxing puzzle game prior to solving skill based questions perform well. What have we learned? Was it the puzzles or GlaDOS?
- vintermann 7y agoMaybe all GlaDOS' subtle (and not so subtle) digs at humanity encourages humans to do their best. Or maybe the humorous absurdity of a testing-obsessed "abusive mom" computer makes people relax more in actual testing situations. I suspect these sorts of aptitude tests get a lot of their power from the intimidation factor.
- diehunde 7y agoI don't know any of those but could it be that Lumosity is just harder on your brain making you more tired and mentally exhausted? I mean, if a group relaxes for 8 hours and other group does lumosity for 8 hrs, why should the second group do better after exhausting their brains for so long?
- hcs 7y agoGood question, I think there was a break between the training and the posttest, but it isn't quite clear from the description in the paper: "Each participant spent 10 h in the study, which spanned four separate sessions in the on-campus laboratory of the university, across 1-2 weeks. Each of the first three sessions lasted 3 h. Session 4 lasted one hour - solely for administering the posttest battery. At the beginning of the first session, subjects in both conditions were asked to read and sign the consent form. After signing the form, subjects were randomly assigned to one of the two conditions. All subjects were then administered an online set of pretests. Once they finished the pretests, they logged in to play their assigned game for the rest of the first session. They continued to play their assigned game for the entire second and third session (for a total of 8 h of gameplay). During the last session, they completed the online set of posttests." "Before and after 8 h of gameplay, subjects completed an online pretest and posttest battery of tests measuring our focal constructs and their relevant facets."
- mattkrause 7y agoSounds like the post-test was done separately to me. Session 1 is probably about 2 hours of "training", with the rest of the time eaten up by the pretest and consent paperwork. Sessions 2 and 3 would be be almost entirely training (3 hrs each), which gets you to 8 hours of training in 3 sessions, leaving the last one for just the post-test.
- logfromblammo 7y agoSo to make real genius kids, throw away those Baby Einstein videos, ditch the "brain training" apps, and just play. What would the play curriculum be? Minecraft Portal 1 & 2 The Talos Principle Infinifactory What else? I'm thinking something that involves a fourth spatial dimension or causality manipulation would also be good. I'd recommend Spellbreaker if I thought kids would tolerate text-only games these days.
- dymk 7y agoBaba is You Factorio Shenzhen IO 7 Billion Humans / Human Resource Machine
- javajosh 7y agoThe Incredible Machine, Lemmings, and just playing around with Logo were pretty awesome for problem solving fun, I think, back in my day. As for messing with causality, Braid comes to mind. To expand perspective, and for the sheer beauty of it, Gorogoa. Almost any RTS will give you a good feel for simple differential equations, combinatorics, economics, and a little game theory. I used to mess around with some incredible indie content on Kongregate, especially puzzle games, some of which were truly innovative and wonderful. (Too bad it is so hard to monetize awesome little indie games! Good luck to poki.com, itch.io, and their ilk!) But the best foundation for the mind, I think, is to keep younger kids IRL, let them make up their own games, and keep it physical and outside as much as possible. Much of our human consciousness involves moving around abstract space, analogous to physical motion, and so learning to move and think IRL is vital to developing consciousness, wherever it may eventually play.
- NoodleIncident 7y agoMaybe I'm just salty that I didn't figure out you could pick up laser redirectors without breaking the connection until after beating the game, but The Talos Principle always seems out of place in these lists. I've always seen it as a game focused on its story, which by necessity involves puzzle-based gameplay; but I've never thought that the puzzles were that good. In particular, it feels like the game actively discourages you from using 3D spatial reasoning, in favor of the puzzles being about using the tools you have to collect more tools. Most of the puzzles could have just been a 2D top-down perspective.
- nickjj 7y agoI wish they did this test with people who played the Quake series (Quake / Quake II / Quake 3 / Quake Live). They were arguably one of the most popular non-realism based FPS games of their time (they spanned ~25 years). The big difference between Portal is, Quake is a multiplayer game where you're playing against a human in real time and there's no backup plan of being able to Google an answer if you get stuck. You either practice and get better or get utterly destroyed. It's really a good case for overcoming challenges and persistence. There's 1v1 matches where you need to memorize maps to such a degree that you can almost navigate them blind folded. You're also dealing with timing multiple items down to the second, predicting where a human opponent will go, mastering each weapon in every scenario to maximize damage output while minimizing damage input and also generally having a high level overview of how the match is going to figure out when it's worth taking risks or play it safe. That's just the mental side of it too. Then there's needing very good reaction times and dexterity to aim quickly and precisely and each weapon has its own style of aiming (flick shots, precise tracking, projectile prediction, instant hit scan weapons, etc.). And then there's other variants of the game like 4v4 TDM or capture the flag that share similar challenges as above but now it's amplified because you're playing with a lot of people and you need to make very interesting decisions with powerups. All of this happens within seconds and becomes second nature once you've played long enough. It's actually almost unbelievable that a human brain can react so quickly and become so well adjusted to navigating a high speed virtual world under pressure. A lot of these Quake games were played at live events with hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line before e-sports became as huge as it is today.
- leoc 7y agoTeam Fortress 2 is (as you may know) the sequel to one of the most popular Quake (as in Quake 1) mods, and very much a Quake mod itself.
- lliamander 7y agoBut how long does that benefit last?
- personjerry 7y agoWait is everyone here commenting just from reading the abstract? I couldn't get access to the pdf (elsevier paywall)...
- isaacgreyed 7y agoI wonder if any of this boost, or even a significant portion, comes from just being happier and relaxing after playing a game for 8 hours. Rather than some perceived brain training.