6 ms·

I think the HN community, and most consumers, tend to look at things from only one angle. Imagine you start work at some small shop that manufacturers widgets f

I think the HN community, and most consumers, tend to look at things from only one angle. Imagine you start work at some small shop that manufacturers widgets for consumers. What would you do when you have to advertise your product? You'd have to turn to Google is a similar company. Are there any real alternatives? (I am asking because I really want to know) I say this because I am in this position now. I have to figure out how to advertise my company's products and am torn on how to go about it.

dleslie 7y ago
For actual, physical widgets the traditional advertising markets still work: trade magazines and trade shows. Contacting vendors who specialize in your market of interest and running promotions with them also works. However, it's all a whole lot more expensive and effortful than running some Google ads.
- teamspirit 7y ago
  And there lies the problem. The cost in both time and money is much higher. I'd love to run TV and magazine ads on all the shows and in all the magazines my customers are reading, it just costs a whole lot more. Way more than we have just starting out.
- samtheprogram 7y ago
  I think the point that's missing from the discussion is that adtech companies should be targeting solely on placement (i.e. what ads should show up on a particular website based on the content of the website), and not select individuals (i.e. based on user interests regardless of the place on the web an ad is shown), when faced with this kind of legislation. This is exactly how marketing worked before and how people can go about it now, as you describe, through traditional advertising markets. I'd personally prefer it that way in general, but legislation is necessary for them to optimize on those restrictions.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
pornel 7y ago
You advertise on a website for widget fans. That's how it successfully worked for a long time. The whole targeted advertising is to allow adtech companies to identify users of the "widget fans" site, and then advertise to the same people, but on another, cheaper site.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- pmlnr 7y ago
  That's how it successfully worked for a long time... ... until google search and facebook groups killed thematic sites and communities. I'd love seeing this turned around though.
- bogwog 7y ago
  Targeting existed long before computers. The difference today is the massive amount of very personal data being collected on people without their knowledge or consent and the risks it puts on them. Imagine if you went back to say the 1920s, and you told a marketing director that you could install a one-way mirror room and back door into every household in the country, and staff them all with analysts who will secretly observe people in their homes 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. People would think you were crazy. In fact, I bet most people today would be completely against that idea, yet wouldn't realize that what companies like Google and Amazon are doing today is effectively the same thing, except _much more_ invasive.
aledalgrande 7y ago
You find your audience and you target them directly.
- mottosso 7y ago
  Yes, thank you. I logged in just so that I could upvote this. Why isn't this more accepted of an answer? Why is spam everyone's goto?
drusepth 7y ago
The alternative is to spend hundreds of hours finding widget-related websites, trying to contact the owner(s), negotiating what ad spots are available, what ads are acceptable to run, and what pricing/terms will work for both parties, then managing that relationship over time to ensure ads are actually being displayed, being paid on time, contracts renewed, etc. It's definitely possible, but you're just doing everything manually that ad networks do for you. Whether that is worth your time (or worth it to hire someone to do this kind of thing for you...) is up to you.
- frabcus 7y ago
  AdSense used to do this for you before it tracked individuals... You can still target adverts at content on a site, and have an aggregate system to make that easy and granular. There could even be services which collected lists of websites and categorised them, and the rough demographics of their audience, and retailed slots. Individual tracking is unnecessary financially, you can make as much revenue without. See example of the New York Time dropping tacking for EU readers for GDPR reasons, and continuing to grow ad revenue: https://digiday.com/media/gumgumtest-new-york-times-gdpr-cut-off-ad-exchanges-europe-ad-revenue/ https://digiday.com/media/gumgumtest-new-york-times-gdpr-cut...
- rhizome 7y ago
  Native ads like those can certainly be automated to a great degree, and at the very least use a self-serve interface. "Advertise with us!" links in the sidebar or footer or wherever.
- Kalium 7y ago
  At which point you'll very likely learn that a lot of widget-related websites use ad networks because it saves the 2-3 administrators involved a lot of time and energy. It's definitely possible for small websites to do ads directly, but it's a lot of work. Often more than is justified for a few thousand dollars a year in ads.
- soraminazuki 7y ago
  > It's definitely possible, but you're just doing everything manually that ad networks do for you. You've just explained how contexual ads used to work, which doesn't need all the invasive surveillance modern internet users have to put up with.
sailfast 7y ago
Online shop only, or brick and mortar? Trade "print" media with an online presence. Online media that doesn't sell all their pixels to Google? Radio, depending on your audience and required reach? Forums specific to your audience that don't sell all their pixels to Google. Podcasts. Submarine articles in the trades? Open source ad networks that don't embed insanity or real-time bidding? Mostly, I would try to target your initial audience as precisely as possible where they live, rather than with a wide net. Perhaps a Google search returns results for top websites dealing with your product - if they are not vendors, then perhaps you advertise on that site? Disclaimer: I'm not a growth hacker, but I've thought about these things and run a couple of poor Facebook campaigns for a brick and mortar business.
harry8 7y ago
Look for genuine, verified success marketing stories for people in similar positions and follow similar strategies. I've personally never heard of a success story for what you describe that involves paying google. But maybe they exist and they're just keeping it quiet?
gregknicholson 7y ago
Surely Google has an obvious competitor, right? Because otherwise it would clearly be a monopoly.
JohnFen 7y ago
I've started a few successful businesses, and all I can say is what's worked for me. I've never needed to turn to Google or other ad-slingers. Instead, I've done things the old-fashioned way, by going to where my potential customers tend to congregate and engaging with them (this kickstarts word-of-mouth, which is still the best advertising you can get), hosting my own online forums for customers, going to trade shows as appropriate, and supplementing everything with a few direct-placement ads in carefully selected media. Yes, it's more work -- what Google et. al. are actually selling you is convenience, after all. But the rewards in terms of of ROI as well as fostering a real community, complete with evangelists, are more than worth it to me. Of course, ymmv.

dleslie 7y ago

For actual, physical widgets the traditional advertising markets still work: trade magazines and trade shows. Contacting vendors who specialize in your market of interest and running promotions with them also works. However, it's all a whole lot more expensive and effortful than running some Google ads.

teamspirit 7y ago
And there lies the problem. The cost in both time and money is much higher. I'd love to run TV and magazine ads on all the shows and in all the magazines my customers are reading, it just costs a whole lot more. Way more than we have just starting out.
samtheprogram 7y ago
I think the point that's missing from the discussion is that adtech companies should be targeting solely on placement (i.e. what ads should show up on a particular website based on the content of the website), and not select individuals (i.e. based on user interests regardless of the place on the web an ad is shown), when faced with this kind of legislation. This is exactly how marketing worked before and how people can go about it now, as you describe, through traditional advertising markets. I'd personally prefer it that way in general, but legislation is necessary for them to optimize on those restrictions.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

pornel 7y ago

You advertise on a website for widget fans. That's how it successfully worked for a long time. The whole targeted advertising is to allow adtech companies to identify users of the "widget fans" site, and then advertise to the same people, but on another, cheaper site.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
pmlnr 7y ago
That's how it successfully worked for a long time... ... until google search and facebook groups killed thematic sites and communities. I'd love seeing this turned around though.
bogwog 7y ago
Targeting existed long before computers. The difference today is the massive amount of very personal data being collected on people without their knowledge or consent and the risks it puts on them. Imagine if you went back to say the 1920s, and you told a marketing director that you could install a one-way mirror room and back door into every household in the country, and staff them all with analysts who will secretly observe people in their homes 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. People would think you were crazy. In fact, I bet most people today would be completely against that idea, yet wouldn't realize that what companies like Google and Amazon are doing today is effectively the same thing, except _much more_ invasive.

aledalgrande 7y ago

You find your audience and you target them directly.

mottosso 7y ago
Yes, thank you. I logged in just so that I could upvote this. Why isn't this more accepted of an answer? Why is spam everyone's goto?

drusepth 7y ago

The alternative is to spend hundreds of hours finding widget-related websites, trying to contact the owner(s), negotiating what ad spots are available, what ads are acceptable to run, and what pricing/terms will work for both parties, then managing that relationship over time to ensure ads are actually being displayed, being paid on time, contracts renewed, etc. It's definitely possible, but you're just doing everything manually that ad networks do for you. Whether that is worth your time (or worth it to hire someone to do this kind of thing for you...) is up to you.

frabcus 7y ago
AdSense used to do this for you before it tracked individuals... You can still target adverts at content on a site, and have an aggregate system to make that easy and granular. There could even be services which collected lists of websites and categorised them, and the rough demographics of their audience, and retailed slots. Individual tracking is unnecessary financially, you can make as much revenue without. See example of the New York Time dropping tacking for EU readers for GDPR reasons, and continuing to grow ad revenue: https://digiday.com/media/gumgumtest-new-york-times-gdpr-cut-off-ad-exchanges-europe-ad-revenue/ https://digiday.com/media/gumgumtest-new-york-times-gdpr-cut...
rhizome 7y ago
Native ads like those can certainly be automated to a great degree, and at the very least use a self-serve interface. "Advertise with us!" links in the sidebar or footer or wherever.
Kalium 7y ago
At which point you'll very likely learn that a lot of widget-related websites use ad networks because it saves the 2-3 administrators involved a lot of time and energy. It's definitely possible for small websites to do ads directly, but it's a lot of work. Often more than is justified for a few thousand dollars a year in ads.
soraminazuki 7y ago
> It's definitely possible, but you're just doing everything manually that ad networks do for you. You've just explained how contexual ads used to work, which doesn't need all the invasive surveillance modern internet users have to put up with.

sailfast 7y ago

Online shop only, or brick and mortar? Trade "print" media with an online presence. Online media that doesn't sell all their pixels to Google? Radio, depending on your audience and required reach? Forums specific to your audience that don't sell all their pixels to Google. Podcasts. Submarine articles in the trades? Open source ad networks that don't embed insanity or real-time bidding? Mostly, I would try to target your initial audience as precisely as possible where they live, rather than with a wide net. Perhaps a Google search returns results for top websites dealing with your product - if they are not vendors, then perhaps you advertise on that site? Disclaimer: I'm not a growth hacker, but I've thought about these things and run a couple of poor Facebook campaigns for a brick and mortar business.

harry8 7y ago

Look for genuine, verified success marketing stories for people in similar positions and follow similar strategies. I've personally never heard of a success story for what you describe that involves paying google. But maybe they exist and they're just keeping it quiet?

gregknicholson 7y ago

Surely Google has an obvious competitor, right? Because otherwise it would clearly be a monopoly.

JohnFen 7y ago

I've started a few successful businesses, and all I can say is what's worked for me. I've never needed to turn to Google or other ad-slingers. Instead, I've done things the old-fashioned way, by going to where my potential customers tend to congregate and engaging with them (this kickstarts word-of-mouth, which is still the best advertising you can get), hosting my own online forums for customers, going to trade shows as appropriate, and supplementing everything with a few direct-placement ads in carefully selected media. Yes, it's more work -- what Google et. al. are actually selling you is convenience, after all. But the rewards in terms of of ROI as well as fostering a real community, complete with evangelists, are more than worth it to me. Of course, ymmv.