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> Economics of Electric Vehicles Mean Oil's Days As A Transport Fuel Are Numbered I know the article was about cars, but fossil fuel will always have a place a

> Economics of Electric Vehicles Mean Oil's Days As A Transport Fuel Are Numbered I know the article was about cars, but fossil fuel will always have a place as aviation fuel. The only thing I can currently see ending that trend is widespread use of vacuum tunnel trains.

doctor_eval 7y ago
I see the claim that we need fossil fuels for airlines and rockets raised frequently, but once we have widespread renewable electricity, what’s the barrier to creating fuel from air and water, using electricity? AFAIK, it’s not really fossil fuels that are needed for planes and rockets, but high energy density liquid fuels, and these can surely be created renewably once we have a renewable energy infrastructure. Or have I missed something?
- olau 7y ago
  Yes. And small electric planes are in fact beginning to show up. It is my understanding that going electric enables more efficient designs, and with those one or two decades of further battery tech development might actually get us large planes too.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    That Israeli company Eviation is claiming their yet to fly electric plane will have a range of 500 miles. I'm reserving judgement till I see it. If they pull that off it's a line in the sand.
    - doctor_eval 7y ago
      This electric aircraft gets 60 minutes endurance and is flying today (apparently): https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-04/first-electric-plane-passenger-flights-in-australia-to-rottnest/9304424 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-04/first-electric-plane-...
      - Gibbon1 7y ago
        Be interesting to talk to someone that has real experience with those.
- imtringued 7y ago
  Bio fuels for cars are unsustainable because you will need even more bio fuels to produce fertilizer and to power the farming equipment but if you merely use bio fuels for energy storage in aviation then most problems disappear.
  - doctor_eval 7y ago
    But if you have enough energy, isn’t it possible to synthesise fuel directly using CO2 and H2O? No need to use biomaterial as feedstock... assuming the energy is renewable. Maybe I’m overly optimistic? Eg here is how to create methane https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140106094557.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140106094557.h...
- henrikschroder 7y ago
  > what’s the barrier to creating fuel from air and water, using electricity? > it’s not really fossil fuels that are needed for planes and rockets, but high energy density liquid fuels The energy density of liquid hydrogen is really low, so that idea won't work. You want hydrocarbons of some sort, because they have the required energy density, so you could probably switch planes to run on some sort of biodiesel instead of fossil fuel.
  - WorldMaker 7y ago
    The energy density doesn't matter if the engine efficiency goes up. Early experiments with electric engines for planes seem to suggest that efficiency may go up enough that hydrogen fuel cells may be viable, whether or not battery tech gets there.
adrianN 7y ago
Hydrocarbons will have a place as aviation fuel for the foreseeable future. It is unlikely that they'll be made with fossil carbon for much longer.

doctor_eval 7y ago

I see the claim that we need fossil fuels for airlines and rockets raised frequently, but once we have widespread renewable electricity, what’s the barrier to creating fuel from air and water, using electricity? AFAIK, it’s not really fossil fuels that are needed for planes and rockets, but high energy density liquid fuels, and these can surely be created renewably once we have a renewable energy infrastructure. Or have I missed something?

olau 7y ago
Yes. And small electric planes are in fact beginning to show up. It is my understanding that going electric enables more efficient designs, and with those one or two decades of further battery tech development might actually get us large planes too.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  That Israeli company Eviation is claiming their yet to fly electric plane will have a range of 500 miles. I'm reserving judgement till I see it. If they pull that off it's a line in the sand.
  - doctor_eval 7y ago
    This electric aircraft gets 60 minutes endurance and is flying today (apparently): https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-04/first-electric-plane-passenger-flights-in-australia-to-rottnest/9304424 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-04/first-electric-plane-...
    - Gibbon1 7y ago
      Be interesting to talk to someone that has real experience with those.
imtringued 7y ago
Bio fuels for cars are unsustainable because you will need even more bio fuels to produce fertilizer and to power the farming equipment but if you merely use bio fuels for energy storage in aviation then most problems disappear.
- doctor_eval 7y ago
  But if you have enough energy, isn’t it possible to synthesise fuel directly using CO2 and H2O? No need to use biomaterial as feedstock... assuming the energy is renewable. Maybe I’m overly optimistic? Eg here is how to create methane https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140106094557.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140106094557.h...
henrikschroder 7y ago
> what’s the barrier to creating fuel from air and water, using electricity? > it’s not really fossil fuels that are needed for planes and rockets, but high energy density liquid fuels The energy density of liquid hydrogen is really low, so that idea won't work. You want hydrocarbons of some sort, because they have the required energy density, so you could probably switch planes to run on some sort of biodiesel instead of fossil fuel.
- WorldMaker 7y ago
  The energy density doesn't matter if the engine efficiency goes up. Early experiments with electric engines for planes seem to suggest that efficiency may go up enough that hydrogen fuel cells may be viable, whether or not battery tech gets there.

adrianN 7y ago

Hydrocarbons will have a place as aviation fuel for the foreseeable future. It is unlikely that they'll be made with fossil carbon for much longer.