5 ms·

With existing infrastructure, for most locations, electricity is far easier to transport than gas. Even with some necessary scaling to support widespread car c

With existing infrastructure, for most locations, electricity is far easier to transport than gas. Even with some necessary scaling to support widespread car charging, electrical infrastructure is far more robust, redundant and safe than the gas.

mises 7y ago
Transport != store. I can transmit, assuming there's a sink on the other end (though loss is an issue over distance). Considering there is neither enough lithium nor enough cobalt to make a Tesla for every American, battery tech will be a huge bottleneck.
- luckydata 7y ago
  Who says that we don't have enough lithium?
  - presidentscroob 7y ago
    There's likely plenty: https://www.quora.com/Is-there-enough-lithium-in-the-world-to-replace-all-petroleum-cars-with-battery-electric-vehicles https://www.quora.com/Is-there-enough-lithium-in-the-world-t...
- imtringued 7y ago
  Future lithium batteries won't use cobalt.
  - mises 7y ago
    Any source on this? I understand there alternative technologies, but most have disadvantages in terms of power density, longevity, price, etc.
    - WorldMaker 7y ago
      Cobalt reduction has already been happening at a rapid pace. 2018 article mentioning Tesla cut their Cobalt needs by volume over 60%: http://www.digitaljournal.com/tech-and-science/technology/tesla-cutting-amount-of-cobalt-in-ev-batteries-to-near-zero/article/521774 http://www.digitaljournal.com/tech-and-science/technology/te... Even if we can't get Cobalt to 0% (and there is plenty of research into other battery composites happening right now), the problems with Cobalt seem less to do with scarcity and a lot more to do with geopolitics (Cobalt is primarily sourced today as byproduct extracts of mines for minerals such as nickel in countries like Columbia and the Democratic Republic of the Congo). There's even indications that cobalt could be recycled from existing battery composites (as we do today already for lithium), but no economic incentive to do such because it isn't scarce enough to try.
paganel 7y ago
You should define “most locations”, because in my opinion that term does not include an entire continent, Africa, where power blackouts are more than common (that is where the power network had indeed arrived). You can also add an entire sub-continent, India, which granted doesn’t fare as bad as Africa but which also has its share of power cuts. And probably some parts of South America too, Venezuela most likely. This US- and Europe-centric view doesn’t do anyone any good.
trothamel 7y ago
Not sure that's true. A gallon of gas has 33.4 kWh in it, and the US limits fuel pumps to 10 gallons per minute - it's moving 334 watt-hours per minute, or moving 20 megawatts. It looks like electrical equipment of that scale tends to confined to substations, power plants, and other controlled areas. When it comes to robustness, you often see power after a hurricane supplied by gasoline powered generators, with the gasoline supplied by any means necessary. (When the last hurricane hit here, gasoline was available for quite a long time before the grid was repaired.)
- neuralRiot 7y ago
  >Not sure that's true. A gallon of gas has 33.4 kWh in it, and the US limits fuel pumps to 10 gallons per minute - it's moving 334 watt-hours per minute, or moving 20 megawatts. This is something often overlooked when comparing fossil to electric fuels, on any average car you can "charge" enough fuel for 600miles in 10min whereas on an electric you need to charge for 75min to be able to make 350miles and that's if you have a supercharge station available.

mises 7y ago

Transport != store. I can transmit, assuming there's a sink on the other end (though loss is an issue over distance). Considering there is neither enough lithium nor enough cobalt to make a Tesla for every American, battery tech will be a huge bottleneck.

luckydata 7y ago
Who says that we don't have enough lithium?
- presidentscroob 7y ago
  There's likely plenty: https://www.quora.com/Is-there-enough-lithium-in-the-world-to-replace-all-petroleum-cars-with-battery-electric-vehicles https://www.quora.com/Is-there-enough-lithium-in-the-world-t...
imtringued 7y ago
Future lithium batteries won't use cobalt.
- mises 7y ago
  Any source on this? I understand there alternative technologies, but most have disadvantages in terms of power density, longevity, price, etc.
  - WorldMaker 7y ago
    Cobalt reduction has already been happening at a rapid pace. 2018 article mentioning Tesla cut their Cobalt needs by volume over 60%: http://www.digitaljournal.com/tech-and-science/technology/tesla-cutting-amount-of-cobalt-in-ev-batteries-to-near-zero/article/521774 http://www.digitaljournal.com/tech-and-science/technology/te... Even if we can't get Cobalt to 0% (and there is plenty of research into other battery composites happening right now), the problems with Cobalt seem less to do with scarcity and a lot more to do with geopolitics (Cobalt is primarily sourced today as byproduct extracts of mines for minerals such as nickel in countries like Columbia and the Democratic Republic of the Congo). There's even indications that cobalt could be recycled from existing battery composites (as we do today already for lithium), but no economic incentive to do such because it isn't scarce enough to try.

paganel 7y ago

You should define “most locations”, because in my opinion that term does not include an entire continent, Africa, where power blackouts are more than common (that is where the power network had indeed arrived). You can also add an entire sub-continent, India, which granted doesn’t fare as bad as Africa but which also has its share of power cuts. And probably some parts of South America too, Venezuela most likely. This US- and Europe-centric view doesn’t do anyone any good.

trothamel 7y ago

Not sure that's true. A gallon of gas has 33.4 kWh in it, and the US limits fuel pumps to 10 gallons per minute - it's moving 334 watt-hours per minute, or moving 20 megawatts. It looks like electrical equipment of that scale tends to confined to substations, power plants, and other controlled areas. When it comes to robustness, you often see power after a hurricane supplied by gasoline powered generators, with the gasoline supplied by any means necessary. (When the last hurricane hit here, gasoline was available for quite a long time before the grid was repaired.)

neuralRiot 7y ago
>Not sure that's true. A gallon of gas has 33.4 kWh in it, and the US limits fuel pumps to 10 gallons per minute - it's moving 334 watt-hours per minute, or moving 20 megawatts. This is something often overlooked when comparing fossil to electric fuels, on any average car you can "charge" enough fuel for 600miles in 10min whereas on an electric you need to charge for 75min to be able to make 350miles and that's if you have a supercharge station available.