4 ms·

Looks like we'll have an election now as a proxy second referendum.

SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
Wasn’t there already an election? Can you explain why there is a second proxy referendum and what the two outcomes would be? I assume it’s Wait for Deal Brexit or Doing It Now Brexit, ya?
- thecosas 7y ago
  I believe the idea here is that people would vote for MPs who are for/against Brexit rather than voting directly for/against Brexit themselves.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  In parliamentary democracies there aren't any formal barriers to having elections as often as people feel like it. It's unusual but far from unheard of for countries to have several in a year during difficult times.
- SiempreViernes 7y ago
  There was one over who should carry out the negotiations, the result of which was that the tories lost most of their advantage. There hasn’t been any election that is close to being about the actual leave conditions, on account of the only concrete deal being written down in spring this year.
- bencollier49 7y ago
  There are now a fairly large number of MPs who are no longer aligned to the policies of their party, or who have moved party. An election should shake all of that out. This, combined with the speaker's constitutional innovations have led to a situation where we have a government which can't govern. Again, an election should sort this (and may allow the removal of an activist speaker as well). And yes, it will be about voting for a party which matches your preferred strategy. Tory = no deal. Libs = remain. Labour = ??? + radical socialism.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 7y ago
  They are suggesting that an election, which currently seems likely to happen soon, will be a "proxy referendum". I. e.: that will be the decisive factor for peoples votes. Presumably, the conversion would be "brexit party" = hard, (no deal) brexit; tory = "I have no fucking idea, but I don't like immigrants, either". LibDems = "no brexit". Labor = "soft brexit".
- RafiqM 7y ago
  The recent election was an internal party election, similar to the Republican or Democratic National Congress. This is because in a general election in the UK, the Prime Minister is not directly elected by the people - they vote for a party, and the leader of that party can change at any time, which is what happened when Theresa May stepped down.
lordnacho 7y ago
Corbyn just said he wont allow it (and they need him due to the FTPA) unless they vote for blocking no-deal first. This is starting to be like one of those trading card games like Magic the Gathering or Pokemon. Special ability: Prorogue. Interrupt with special session. FTPA.
- bencollier49 7y ago
  Boris can allow the blocking bill and still has time to repeal it if he wins the election.
  - lordnacho 7y ago
    No idea if you follow British politics, but a few years ago the Cons and LibDems went into coalition, and one of the things that was meant to help was the FTPA. Under that the government cannot just call an election, it needs the support of 2/3 of parliament or a vote of no confidence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_201...
    - bencollier49 7y ago
      They can sidestep that with a simple bill which just says "Notwithstanding the FTPA, there will be an election on date x", passed with a simple majority. Would need to go through the Lords though. The FTPA was a terrible piece of legislation. Regardless, the point is that Boris can accede to Corbyn's demands, hold an election, and still leave on Oct 31st. If he wins.
    - reubeniv 7y ago
      Technically it can pass a short bill that requires just a majority, but it then has to go through lords and is open to amendments https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/early-election https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/early-e...
nailer 7y ago
Proxy /third/ referendum. - We had the Brexit referendum. - We had the EU elections, by which (according to the BBC) pro Brexit parties including the Tories came out overwhelmingly on top. - We can have an election now as a proxy third referendum. Honestly, as a former remainer, I'm tired of this. The vote was to Leave, by about 1.5 million people. People who don't like the result are trying to thwart it and weakening the UK's negotiating position. If I want to buy your startup, and some MPs decide you must make a deal, I'm going to offer you next to nothing for all your equity. Don't like that? Well you should have had no deal on the table.
- QuesnayJr 7y ago
  How can they weaken their negotiating position? The UK is already at zero. If the people really want a no-deal Brexit (which is what they are going to get at the end of October), then they can vote for it.
  - nailer 7y ago
    The US can weaken their negotiating position by having to agree to any deal, as mentioned in the comment you're replying to. The UK isn't at zero. The EU export to the UK. Surely you know this?
    - QuesnayJr 7y ago
      The UK doesn't have any negotiating leverage. It's May's Withdrawal Agreement, or no deal. Boris Johnson is pantomiming negotiations with the EU, but there's no basis on which to negotiate. Surely you know this?
- eloff 7y ago
  This is true, but the UK has very little leverage to begin with even without no deal of the table. So it's the difference between a bad deal and a worse deal. That's just how it is negotiating with a major power imbalance.
  - 7y ago

Wasn’t there already an election? Can you explain why there is a second proxy referendum and what the two outcomes would be? I assume it’s Wait for Deal Brexit or Doing It Now Brexit, ya?

thecosas 7y ago
I believe the idea here is that people would vote for MPs who are for/against Brexit rather than voting directly for/against Brexit themselves.
anigbrowl 7y ago
In parliamentary democracies there aren't any formal barriers to having elections as often as people feel like it. It's unusual but far from unheard of for countries to have several in a year during difficult times.
SiempreViernes 7y ago
There was one over who should carry out the negotiations, the result of which was that the tories lost most of their advantage. There hasn’t been any election that is close to being about the actual leave conditions, on account of the only concrete deal being written down in spring this year.
bencollier49 7y ago
There are now a fairly large number of MPs who are no longer aligned to the policies of their party, or who have moved party. An election should shake all of that out. This, combined with the speaker's constitutional innovations have led to a situation where we have a government which can't govern. Again, an election should sort this (and may allow the removal of an activist speaker as well). And yes, it will be about voting for a party which matches your preferred strategy. Tory = no deal. Libs = remain. Labour = ??? + radical socialism.
IfOnlyYouKnew 7y ago
They are suggesting that an election, which currently seems likely to happen soon, will be a "proxy referendum". I. e.: that will be the decisive factor for peoples votes. Presumably, the conversion would be "brexit party" = hard, (no deal) brexit; tory = "I have no fucking idea, but I don't like immigrants, either". LibDems = "no brexit". Labor = "soft brexit".
RafiqM 7y ago
The recent election was an internal party election, similar to the Republican or Democratic National Congress. This is because in a general election in the UK, the Prime Minister is not directly elected by the people - they vote for a party, and the leader of that party can change at any time, which is what happened when Theresa May stepped down.

lordnacho 7y ago

Corbyn just said he wont allow it (and they need him due to the FTPA) unless they vote for blocking no-deal first. This is starting to be like one of those trading card games like Magic the Gathering or Pokemon. Special ability: Prorogue. Interrupt with special session. FTPA.

bencollier49 7y ago
Boris can allow the blocking bill and still has time to repeal it if he wins the election.
- lordnacho 7y ago
  No idea if you follow British politics, but a few years ago the Cons and LibDems went into coalition, and one of the things that was meant to help was the FTPA. Under that the government cannot just call an election, it needs the support of 2/3 of parliament or a vote of no confidence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_201...
  - bencollier49 7y ago
    They can sidestep that with a simple bill which just says "Notwithstanding the FTPA, there will be an election on date x", passed with a simple majority. Would need to go through the Lords though. The FTPA was a terrible piece of legislation. Regardless, the point is that Boris can accede to Corbyn's demands, hold an election, and still leave on Oct 31st. If he wins.
  - reubeniv 7y ago
    Technically it can pass a short bill that requires just a majority, but it then has to go through lords and is open to amendments https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/early-election https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/early-e...

nailer 7y ago

Proxy /third/ referendum. - We had the Brexit referendum. - We had the EU elections, by which (according to the BBC) pro Brexit parties including the Tories came out overwhelmingly on top. - We can have an election now as a proxy third referendum. Honestly, as a former remainer, I'm tired of this. The vote was to Leave, by about 1.5 million people. People who don't like the result are trying to thwart it and weakening the UK's negotiating position. If I want to buy your startup, and some MPs decide you must make a deal, I'm going to offer you next to nothing for all your equity. Don't like that? Well you should have had no deal on the table.

QuesnayJr 7y ago
How can they weaken their negotiating position? The UK is already at zero. If the people really want a no-deal Brexit (which is what they are going to get at the end of October), then they can vote for it.
- nailer 7y ago
  The US can weaken their negotiating position by having to agree to any deal, as mentioned in the comment you're replying to. The UK isn't at zero. The EU export to the UK. Surely you know this?
  - QuesnayJr 7y ago
    The UK doesn't have any negotiating leverage. It's May's Withdrawal Agreement, or no deal. Boris Johnson is pantomiming negotiations with the EU, but there's no basis on which to negotiate. Surely you know this?
eloff 7y ago
This is true, but the UK has very little leverage to begin with even without no deal of the table. So it's the difference between a bad deal and a worse deal. That's just how it is negotiating with a major power imbalance.
- 7y ago