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This headline bothers me. What evidence is there that parents drove the use of technology in schools? From the beginning parents have been extremely skeptical a

This headline bothers me. What evidence is there that parents drove the use of technology in schools? From the beginning parents have been extremely skeptical about the use of technology and have always voiced concerns. There is every evidence that this was driven by administrators responding to incentives and mandates, and tech companies hoping to make money selling software and devices. There has never been any evidence that giving kids screens helps them learn, and as we see in the real world, the exact opposite is what is happening.

benologist 7y ago
Does it matter who drove adoption? Surely at some point schools would have explored using tablets in education anyway? They weren't going to forever ignore the possibilities, and it didn't enhance education and now we know. That's just a valid outcome to a question we had to ask.
randogogogo 7y ago
I cannot speak to motives behind the move but my experience has also been that administration has driven this. My kids schools are 100% Chromebooks. This has been great for scheduling extracurricular activities and making their backpacks lighter. It really hasn't improved their ability to learn mathematics or English.
- coding123 7y ago
  And... Shouldn't they have heavy backpacks for you know health?
  - Qwertystop 7y ago
    If you think kids need more exercise, increase the time spent in gym class/phys-ed.
    - caconym_ 7y ago
      Wrong! We should make the backpacks heavier, cut gym/phys-ed altogether, and funnel the resulting surplus into purchasing more educational software[aaS] to confuse and frustrate our children and add to their already burdensome workload.
  - rhino369 7y ago
    I cannot vouch for the accuracy, but I've heard it speculated that heavy backpacks are bad for kids backs.
  - moate 7y ago
    Gonna need you to flesh this one out for me. Why would a heavy backpack be healthier? They tend to promote bad posture and back/neck/shoulder problems. The extra weight resistance during walking probably isn't going to outweigh the potential negatives. https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-bags-are-wrecking-our-backs-ncna803541 https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-bags-are-wrecking-...
- deckarep 7y ago
  Somehow my daughter gets to carry both her Chromebook and her heavy books. :/
- quotha 7y ago
  Chromebooks have absolutely no place in the classrooms, I am dreading my kids entering what has become of this school system.
  - derefr 7y ago
    Chromebooks specifically? What's the difference, if the point is just to get kids to interact with an online worksheet/test web-app; or to write a research report (a common reason a class period was spent in a computer lab ten years ago); or to just have their textbooks loaded onto them? For all of those activities, all you need is a web browser; it doesn't matter what it's running on. (Also, if you're clever, you can do things like finding a web-app that lets you use them as a substitute for those vote-clickers that some university lecturers use to gauge pre-lesson knowledgeability.)
    - cliffy 7y ago
      Probably: Lock-in to Google's proprietary walled garden. Probably loaded with school spy-ware too. Unfortunately a lot of parents won't care, and the school system won't give them a choice either. However, it leads to shit like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School_District https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School... The ideal is BYOD. If all you really need is a web browser, then let parents and kids decide what to use together. If you really give a shit about cheating use analog quizzes/tests. It's not perfect, but the old ways are easier to police.
      - derefr 7y ago
        > The ideal is BYOD. These aren't the student's devices; they're enterprise-MDM workstations that the kids happen to carry around. Think of them as a computer lab that the kids don't have to go to; not as Personal Computers per se. They're probably logged into them with a school-issued GSuite email rather than their personal Google Account, too, and told to not use these computers for non-school activity. (I'm not intimately familiar with the Chromebook education initiative, but if it's anything like Apple's initiative with iPads, then that's how it's set up.) And no, the school wouldn't ever be okay with not using Mobile Device Management; MDM is how they ensure that a classroom full of laptops all on a LAN together aren't spreading malware like the digital equivalent of a kindergarten in flu season; and how they ensure the devices don't get spyware installed onto them by someone else (some stranger; or someone's parents!) to steal kids' contact info and location details with the goal of kidnapping or worse. I'd actually think that BYOD would be worse in such a case, as you'd have to contaminate your personal device with an enterprise MDM profile in order to get it on the network. Better to just tell the kid that they can have a personal device, but they also have to have this school-managed device, and that they should think of them as separate things and not use one for the activities better suited to the other. (This also neatly solves the "school spy-ware" worry as well, because if the students are only doing school-work on their laptop and are just using their phones+ISP data plans to text/email/etc., then the school sees none of that.)
- triceratops 7y ago
  > It really hasn't improved their ability to learn mathematics or English. Lightening backpack load and improved scheduling are pretty good outcomes, as long as learning hasn't gotten worse. Why would learning ability (for basics like the 3Rs) be significantly improved using tech? The students are still the same after all.
  - superfrank 7y ago
    I used to work at an ed-tech company. When we talked with teachers, one of the things we learned that students were doing was opening up shared Google Docs during lectures and taking notes collaboratively. Even more interesting is that if one of the students didn't understand something the teacher said, they could use the comment function to make a note and other students would then explain the concept to them. I think you are correct that the concepts these students are learning probably aren't improved too much by technology, but there are tons of ways in which students can learn and collaborate in real time which wouldn't be possible without devices like chromebooks.
    - randogogogo 7y ago
      Huh, that's an interesting idea. I'll to ask my kids about this kind of sharing this afternoon.
liability 7y ago
My mother, a school teacher, describes herself and her coworkers as being enthusiastic about more ipads and laptops in the classroom. But the reasons she gives seem suspect to me. I believe that many teachers are supportive of this deployment of tech because of the sedative properties. Give the hyper kids an ipad and suddenly they sit still and stop running circles around their 65 year old teachers. She says that I'm not wrong per se but that it's still a good thing overall for the kids. I think they should just let the kids run around outside instead (7th and 8th grade have no recess in her district, and PE is only one or two days a week...)
- emilfihlman 7y ago
  >7th and 8th grade have no recess in her district Wait what? Is there some difference in notation since recess (in Finland it's 15 minutes between each class and usually 30min after lunch) is like absolute must for kids of any age. There's even recess in upper secondary school but the lessons are 75 minutes usually instead of 45 minutes as in comprehensive school. Are you really saying that it's directly from class to another class? That's crazy!
  - jrochkind1 7y ago
    Nope, you get it. It is crazy. The educational system is REALLY MESSED UP in the U.S. Recess doesn't help you do better on standardized tests, so it goes. I don't know what's wrong with Americans either, and I am one.
    - bonoboTP 7y ago
      When do kids socialize then? Breaks between lessons is how students can get to know each other, grab some snacks, go to the toilet, talk about the game last night, flirt etc etc. Do you really mean there are no breaks in between? Or you mean there's only 10 minutes to get to the next room? It cannot be 0 because people can't teleport and I assume not everything is in the same classroom.
      - 7y ago
tboyd47 7y ago
Well, going by the PTA's promotional material at our school, it's their top priority.
- hnburnsy 7y ago
  And who drives the PTA, typically parents out to please the administrators at least in what I have seen. The PTA at one local school raised funds for a Gator (1) for the landscaper to use, totally pushed by the principal. (1) - https://www.deere.com/en/gator-utility-vehicles/full-size-crossover-gators https://www.deere.com/en/gator-utility-vehicles/full-size-cr...
  - tboyd47 7y ago
    Really? Why do parents want to please the administrators?
jrochkind1 7y ago
You may be right. the interesting question is where these incentives and mandates came from, if parents never wanted it.
aggie 7y ago
Can you point to some of this evidence, for the uninformed? Especially on "giving kids screens helps them learn, and as we see in the real world, the exact opposite is what is happening."
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
bonoboTP 7y ago
Who are these "administrators" that always come up in the context of education in the US? The word makes it sound like some bureaucrat or secretary, but it seems like they have a lot of decision making power. Are they school employees, do school directors count as administrators? Or are they part of the local government or state government? Elected officials responsible for education in some area? Who are they and how come there are so many of them?
- liability 7y ago
  They're local elected government officials, which means they are usually bored baby boomers with more free time than common sense.
  - panzagl 7y ago
    No, 'administrators' usually means non-teaching educational staff of a school and district- principals, vice-principals, deans, directors, superintendents and similar. They're employees. Local elected officials form a school board, which may then have various committees composed of board members, administrators, teachers, and parents.
    - liability 7y ago
      You're right, I was thinking of the school board. School boards seem to be major proponents of ipadification.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  There are five layers of governance. The Congress gives away money with high-level strings attached. States set curriculum guidelines (or micro-manage the curriculum), set rules and standards, and provide lots of money. School boards make local budget and taxation decisions and exercise other management functions that vary by state and district. The "administrators" are appointed management who are employees of the school. The superintendent (aka the CEO/commissioner) of the district usually has an individual contract with the board. The rest of management is usually civil service or appointed management/confidential employees. In some states they may be unionized to some degree. In the rural school I went to in the 90s, there was a superintendent, CFO, elementary/middle/high school principals and assistants, and about a dozen clerks/secretaries. Today, the district has fewer students, but has added a compliance officer, CIO, special education deputy superintendent, and a bus superintendent.
mbesto 7y ago
> From the beginning parents have been extremely skeptical > There is every evidence that this was driven by administrators and tech companies hoping to make money selling software and devices. > There has never been any evidence that giving kids screens helps them learn No offense, but you made three fairly bold claims there with little sources to back them up. It's not that I disbelief any of your assertions, but refuting someone else's claim because it has no evidence and providing counterpoints without evidence isn't really helpful...
- reallydude 7y ago
  These aren't bold claims, if you've been reading about it for a decade. Even the New York times covered these points (more or less). https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/technology/technology-in-schools-faces-questions-on-value.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/technology/technology-in-... All these issues were at the forefront of the "discussions". The strategy to upsell technological improvements to struggling schools, was a simple way to by pass skepticism. Might as well try something new? I don't remember specific "Powerful Educators" looking to boost student scores, via a massive monetary investment, but someone had to sign off. There were a few newsworthy failures and no demonstrable good...although it's a little early to tell. I found that my early exposure to computers when I was six, led in to my current career. So there may not be any conclusions for decades. Other proponents included vendors like Apple (iPads for everyone in a Los Angeles school, lol) and politicians, who were either bribed or philosophically sold (if there's a difference). Again, this wasn't a scientific decision and one-off school trials are VERY difficult to get past entrenched interests like regulators and unions via equivalence challenges (ie if it's good enough for 1 school it's good enough for all, right? Oh so you're experimenting on these kids but not these?).
everdrive 7y ago
I'm certain that "parents" is not a single monolithic group, and that neither premise ("parents wanted" vs "parents were skeptical") is valid.
acdha 7y ago
> What evidence is there that parents drove the use of technology in schools? From the beginning parents have been extremely skeptical about the use of technology and have always voiced concerns. What are you basing those claims on? In particular, the claim that all parents share a single viewpoint and especially how you know that the administrators aren't responding to interest from a subset of parents who are enthusiastic. The way I've generally heard this characterized is that things like smartboards or tablets are popular with donors & a subset of affluent parents who like visible cool things but not the basic support / dealing with poverty which actually matter for a lot of students. Want to guess which group is disproportionately represented in communications with school administrators and local politicians?

benologist 7y ago

Does it matter who drove adoption? Surely at some point schools would have explored using tablets in education anyway? They weren't going to forever ignore the possibilities, and it didn't enhance education and now we know. That's just a valid outcome to a question we had to ask.

randogogogo 7y ago

I cannot speak to motives behind the move but my experience has also been that administration has driven this. My kids schools are 100% Chromebooks. This has been great for scheduling extracurricular activities and making their backpacks lighter. It really hasn't improved their ability to learn mathematics or English.

coding123 7y ago
And... Shouldn't they have heavy backpacks for you know health?
- Qwertystop 7y ago
  If you think kids need more exercise, increase the time spent in gym class/phys-ed.
  - caconym_ 7y ago
    Wrong! We should make the backpacks heavier, cut gym/phys-ed altogether, and funnel the resulting surplus into purchasing more educational software[aaS] to confuse and frustrate our children and add to their already burdensome workload.
- rhino369 7y ago
  I cannot vouch for the accuracy, but I've heard it speculated that heavy backpacks are bad for kids backs.
- moate 7y ago
  Gonna need you to flesh this one out for me. Why would a heavy backpack be healthier? They tend to promote bad posture and back/neck/shoulder problems. The extra weight resistance during walking probably isn't going to outweigh the potential negatives. https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-bags-are-wrecking-our-backs-ncna803541 https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-bags-are-wrecking-...
deckarep 7y ago
Somehow my daughter gets to carry both her Chromebook and her heavy books. :/
quotha 7y ago
Chromebooks have absolutely no place in the classrooms, I am dreading my kids entering what has become of this school system.
- derefr 7y ago
  Chromebooks specifically? What's the difference, if the point is just to get kids to interact with an online worksheet/test web-app; or to write a research report (a common reason a class period was spent in a computer lab ten years ago); or to just have their textbooks loaded onto them? For all of those activities, all you need is a web browser; it doesn't matter what it's running on. (Also, if you're clever, you can do things like finding a web-app that lets you use them as a substitute for those vote-clickers that some university lecturers use to gauge pre-lesson knowledgeability.)
  - cliffy 7y ago
    Probably: Lock-in to Google's proprietary walled garden. Probably loaded with school spy-ware too. Unfortunately a lot of parents won't care, and the school system won't give them a choice either. However, it leads to shit like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School_District https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School... The ideal is BYOD. If all you really need is a web browser, then let parents and kids decide what to use together. If you really give a shit about cheating use analog quizzes/tests. It's not perfect, but the old ways are easier to police.
    - derefr 7y ago
      > The ideal is BYOD. These aren't the student's devices; they're enterprise-MDM workstations that the kids happen to carry around. Think of them as a computer lab that the kids don't have to go to; not as Personal Computers per se. They're probably logged into them with a school-issued GSuite email rather than their personal Google Account, too, and told to not use these computers for non-school activity. (I'm not intimately familiar with the Chromebook education initiative, but if it's anything like Apple's initiative with iPads, then that's how it's set up.) And no, the school wouldn't ever be okay with not using Mobile Device Management; MDM is how they ensure that a classroom full of laptops all on a LAN together aren't spreading malware like the digital equivalent of a kindergarten in flu season; and how they ensure the devices don't get spyware installed onto them by someone else (some stranger; or someone's parents!) to steal kids' contact info and location details with the goal of kidnapping or worse. I'd actually think that BYOD would be worse in such a case, as you'd have to contaminate your personal device with an enterprise MDM profile in order to get it on the network. Better to just tell the kid that they can have a personal device, but they also have to have this school-managed device, and that they should think of them as separate things and not use one for the activities better suited to the other. (This also neatly solves the "school spy-ware" worry as well, because if the students are only doing school-work on their laptop and are just using their phones+ISP data plans to text/email/etc., then the school sees none of that.)
triceratops 7y ago
> It really hasn't improved their ability to learn mathematics or English. Lightening backpack load and improved scheduling are pretty good outcomes, as long as learning hasn't gotten worse. Why would learning ability (for basics like the 3Rs) be significantly improved using tech? The students are still the same after all.
- superfrank 7y ago
  I used to work at an ed-tech company. When we talked with teachers, one of the things we learned that students were doing was opening up shared Google Docs during lectures and taking notes collaboratively. Even more interesting is that if one of the students didn't understand something the teacher said, they could use the comment function to make a note and other students would then explain the concept to them. I think you are correct that the concepts these students are learning probably aren't improved too much by technology, but there are tons of ways in which students can learn and collaborate in real time which wouldn't be possible without devices like chromebooks.
  - randogogogo 7y ago
    Huh, that's an interesting idea. I'll to ask my kids about this kind of sharing this afternoon.

liability 7y ago

My mother, a school teacher, describes herself and her coworkers as being enthusiastic about more ipads and laptops in the classroom. But the reasons she gives seem suspect to me. I believe that many teachers are supportive of this deployment of tech because of the sedative properties. Give the hyper kids an ipad and suddenly they sit still and stop running circles around their 65 year old teachers. She says that I'm not wrong per se but that it's still a good thing overall for the kids. I think they should just let the kids run around outside instead (7th and 8th grade have no recess in her district, and PE is only one or two days a week...)

emilfihlman 7y ago
>7th and 8th grade have no recess in her district Wait what? Is there some difference in notation since recess (in Finland it's 15 minutes between each class and usually 30min after lunch) is like absolute must for kids of any age. There's even recess in upper secondary school but the lessons are 75 minutes usually instead of 45 minutes as in comprehensive school. Are you really saying that it's directly from class to another class? That's crazy!
- jrochkind1 7y ago
  Nope, you get it. It is crazy. The educational system is REALLY MESSED UP in the U.S. Recess doesn't help you do better on standardized tests, so it goes. I don't know what's wrong with Americans either, and I am one.
  - bonoboTP 7y ago
    When do kids socialize then? Breaks between lessons is how students can get to know each other, grab some snacks, go to the toilet, talk about the game last night, flirt etc etc. Do you really mean there are no breaks in between? Or you mean there's only 10 minutes to get to the next room? It cannot be 0 because people can't teleport and I assume not everything is in the same classroom.
    - 7y ago

tboyd47 7y ago

Well, going by the PTA's promotional material at our school, it's their top priority.

hnburnsy 7y ago
And who drives the PTA, typically parents out to please the administrators at least in what I have seen. The PTA at one local school raised funds for a Gator (1) for the landscaper to use, totally pushed by the principal. (1) - https://www.deere.com/en/gator-utility-vehicles/full-size-crossover-gators https://www.deere.com/en/gator-utility-vehicles/full-size-cr...
- tboyd47 7y ago
  Really? Why do parents want to please the administrators?

jrochkind1 7y ago

You may be right. the interesting question is where these incentives and mandates came from, if parents never wanted it.

aggie 7y ago

Can you point to some of this evidence, for the uninformed? Especially on "giving kids screens helps them learn, and as we see in the real world, the exact opposite is what is happening."

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

bonoboTP 7y ago

Who are these "administrators" that always come up in the context of education in the US? The word makes it sound like some bureaucrat or secretary, but it seems like they have a lot of decision making power. Are they school employees, do school directors count as administrators? Or are they part of the local government or state government? Elected officials responsible for education in some area? Who are they and how come there are so many of them?

liability 7y ago
They're local elected government officials, which means they are usually bored baby boomers with more free time than common sense.
- panzagl 7y ago
  No, 'administrators' usually means non-teaching educational staff of a school and district- principals, vice-principals, deans, directors, superintendents and similar. They're employees. Local elected officials form a school board, which may then have various committees composed of board members, administrators, teachers, and parents.
  - liability 7y ago
    You're right, I was thinking of the school board. School boards seem to be major proponents of ipadification.
Spooky23 7y ago
There are five layers of governance. The Congress gives away money with high-level strings attached. States set curriculum guidelines (or micro-manage the curriculum), set rules and standards, and provide lots of money. School boards make local budget and taxation decisions and exercise other management functions that vary by state and district. The "administrators" are appointed management who are employees of the school. The superintendent (aka the CEO/commissioner) of the district usually has an individual contract with the board. The rest of management is usually civil service or appointed management/confidential employees. In some states they may be unionized to some degree. In the rural school I went to in the 90s, there was a superintendent, CFO, elementary/middle/high school principals and assistants, and about a dozen clerks/secretaries. Today, the district has fewer students, but has added a compliance officer, CIO, special education deputy superintendent, and a bus superintendent.

mbesto 7y ago

> From the beginning parents have been extremely skeptical > There is every evidence that this was driven by administrators and tech companies hoping to make money selling software and devices. > There has never been any evidence that giving kids screens helps them learn No offense, but you made three fairly bold claims there with little sources to back them up. It's not that I disbelief any of your assertions, but refuting someone else's claim because it has no evidence and providing counterpoints without evidence isn't really helpful...

reallydude 7y ago
These aren't bold claims, if you've been reading about it for a decade. Even the New York times covered these points (more or less). https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/technology/technology-in-schools-faces-questions-on-value.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/technology/technology-in-... All these issues were at the forefront of the "discussions". The strategy to upsell technological improvements to struggling schools, was a simple way to by pass skepticism. Might as well try something new? I don't remember specific "Powerful Educators" looking to boost student scores, via a massive monetary investment, but someone had to sign off. There were a few newsworthy failures and no demonstrable good...although it's a little early to tell. I found that my early exposure to computers when I was six, led in to my current career. So there may not be any conclusions for decades. Other proponents included vendors like Apple (iPads for everyone in a Los Angeles school, lol) and politicians, who were either bribed or philosophically sold (if there's a difference). Again, this wasn't a scientific decision and one-off school trials are VERY difficult to get past entrenched interests like regulators and unions via equivalence challenges (ie if it's good enough for 1 school it's good enough for all, right? Oh so you're experimenting on these kids but not these?).

everdrive 7y ago

I'm certain that "parents" is not a single monolithic group, and that neither premise ("parents wanted" vs "parents were skeptical") is valid.

acdha 7y ago

> What evidence is there that parents drove the use of technology in schools? From the beginning parents have been extremely skeptical about the use of technology and have always voiced concerns. What are you basing those claims on? In particular, the claim that all parents share a single viewpoint and especially how you know that the administrators aren't responding to interest from a subset of parents who are enthusiastic. The way I've generally heard this characterized is that things like smartboards or tablets are popular with donors & a subset of affluent parents who like visible cool things but not the basic support / dealing with poverty which actually matter for a lot of students. Want to guess which group is disproportionately represented in communications with school administrators and local politicians?