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I notice that the flight instructor disobeys the captain, who says to says to remove power from the engines, and does the opposite right as they're touching dow

I notice that the flight instructor disobeys the captain, who says to says to remove power from the engines, and does the opposite right as they're touching down. Was there ever any thought as to whether that contributed to the loss of life?

agurk 7y ago
I read the wiki article[0] about this after reading the article and found it a lot more informative. It says just before touchdown "Fitch noticed the high sink rate and that the plane started to yaw right again, and pushed the throttles to full power in an attempt to mitigate the high sink rate and level the plane". It seems a more complex situation than him just deciding to apply power to the engines as the right wing would likely have made contact with the ground anyway. I wasn't able to find any speculation if Fitch could have acted differently and had a better outcome in the official report[1]. The report states that the "captain's acceptance of the check airman to assist in the cockpit was positive and appropriate". Regarding disobeying the captain we can see from transcripts from the CVR that the captain (probably) knew what Fitch was doing: Records: "Close 'em off." Haynes: "Left turn." Records: "Pull 'em off" Fitch: "Nah, I can't pull 'em off or we'll lose it, that's what's turning ya." Unidentified: "Okay." Fitch: "Back ya’ll!" Haynes: "Left, Left throttle, left, left, left, left, left, left, left, left, left, left, left!" Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS): "Whoop whoop pull up. Whoop whoop pull up. Whoop whoop pull up." Haynes: "Everybody stay in brace!" GPWS: "Whoop whoop pull up." Haynes: "God!" [Sound of impact, end of recording] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232 [1] https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR-90-06.pdf https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/... (Discussion of the performance of the flight crew from page 75 [81] onwards)
bdamm 7y ago
No. It's remarkable that they even got to the runway with such precision.
Aeolun 7y ago
Presumably using only one engine would have prevented the plane from flipping like it did, but it might have smashed into the ground harder or turned into a fireball. Ultimately it is impossible to say what kind of effect it would have had, though I’m inclined to say it would likely have been better if the thrust was applied equally.
- joshAg 7y ago
  Thrust was applied equally in the cockpit, but jet engines don't respond immediately and don't spool up in sync. Normally that's not an issue because you're not making large adjustments in short spans of time, you can use various control surfaces to compensate for the brief asynchrony, and you're far enough away from the ground to have room to maneuver. If you remember the Korean airlines flight that crashed at SFO a few years back, the spool up time for the engines came into play as well. The pilots noticed the issue with too little time for the engines to deliver more power before the plane crashed.
  - mlyle 7y ago
    Yah. The thing is, long-period oscillation modes (phugoid, etc) exist in aircraft but are so readily controlled by pilots with conventional controls that they mostly don't matter from a certification standpoint (and would be difficult to avoid, anyways). But jet engines are slow enough that any significant control of 10-30s period oscillations with engine thrust alone would be a real, real challenge.
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
My impression is that they might have had a better result if he'd obeyed orders, or they might have pancaked into the ground at an even greater velocity and killed everyone. Maybe a simulation could figure out, after the fact, which one it would have been. But it's a moot point, because there was no way either the captain or the flight instructor could have known for sure. Each man did what he guessed was best in the heat of a impossible, unprepared-for situation, and they managed to save nearly two-thirds of the passengers. IIRC, The investigation praised them all and exonerated them completely, which the FAA doesn't do lightly.

agurk 7y ago

I read the wiki article[0] about this after reading the article and found it a lot more informative. It says just before touchdown "Fitch noticed the high sink rate and that the plane started to yaw right again, and pushed the throttles to full power in an attempt to mitigate the high sink rate and level the plane". It seems a more complex situation than him just deciding to apply power to the engines as the right wing would likely have made contact with the ground anyway. I wasn't able to find any speculation if Fitch could have acted differently and had a better outcome in the official report[1]. The report states that the "captain's acceptance of the check airman to assist in the cockpit was positive and appropriate". Regarding disobeying the captain we can see from transcripts from the CVR that the captain (probably) knew what Fitch was doing: Records: "Close 'em off." Haynes: "Left turn." Records: "Pull 'em off" Fitch: "Nah, I can't pull 'em off or we'll lose it, that's what's turning ya." Unidentified: "Okay." Fitch: "Back ya’ll!" Haynes: "Left, Left throttle, left, left, left, left, left, left, left, left, left, left, left!" Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS): "Whoop whoop pull up. Whoop whoop pull up. Whoop whoop pull up." Haynes: "Everybody stay in brace!" GPWS: "Whoop whoop pull up." Haynes: "God!" [Sound of impact, end of recording] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232 [1] https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR-90-06.pdf https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/... (Discussion of the performance of the flight crew from page 75 [81] onwards)

bdamm 7y ago

No. It's remarkable that they even got to the runway with such precision.

Aeolun 7y ago

Presumably using only one engine would have prevented the plane from flipping like it did, but it might have smashed into the ground harder or turned into a fireball. Ultimately it is impossible to say what kind of effect it would have had, though I’m inclined to say it would likely have been better if the thrust was applied equally.

joshAg 7y ago
Thrust was applied equally in the cockpit, but jet engines don't respond immediately and don't spool up in sync. Normally that's not an issue because you're not making large adjustments in short spans of time, you can use various control surfaces to compensate for the brief asynchrony, and you're far enough away from the ground to have room to maneuver. If you remember the Korean airlines flight that crashed at SFO a few years back, the spool up time for the engines came into play as well. The pilots noticed the issue with too little time for the engines to deliver more power before the plane crashed.
- mlyle 7y ago
  Yah. The thing is, long-period oscillation modes (phugoid, etc) exist in aircraft but are so readily controlled by pilots with conventional controls that they mostly don't matter from a certification standpoint (and would be difficult to avoid, anyways). But jet engines are slow enough that any significant control of 10-30s period oscillations with engine thrust alone would be a real, real challenge.

PhasmaFelis 7y ago

My impression is that they might have had a better result if he'd obeyed orders, or they might have pancaked into the ground at an even greater velocity and killed everyone. Maybe a simulation could figure out, after the fact, which one it would have been. But it's a moot point, because there was no way either the captain or the flight instructor could have known for sure. Each man did what he guessed was best in the heat of a impossible, unprepared-for situation, and they managed to save nearly two-thirds of the passengers. IIRC, The investigation praised them all and exonerated them completely, which the FAA doesn't do lightly.