5 ms·

Wow. All these startups, making potentially game changing software, all sending their private data and communications around via an uncontrollable 3rd party e-m

Wow. All these startups, making potentially game changing software, all sending their private data and communications around via an uncontrollable 3rd party e-mail system managed by the admins of an company known for its aggressive consumption of startups. Call me paranoid, but though Google's public motto may be "Do no evil" they're like every company and are after profit at the end of the day. Are you encrypting your e-mails? Is running your own mail server that hard, or does Google Apps offer that much benefit? Would you host your e-mail with Microsoft? Oracle? What really make's Google that different? I am genuinely curious - Google seems to be treated by large portions of the startup community as if it were some charitable organisation, working for the benefit of man-kind in an open and free manner. Sure, they've done great things - Search, G-Mail, Android and loads of open source work. But they're still a company beholden to their shareholders, selling adverts based on mass data collection. At the end of the day, in my eyes, they're not fundamentally different from Apple, Microsoft or any other hugely funded mega-corp. I wouldn't store my secret sauces with those companies and their ever evolving market plans and TOSs. Am I overly cautious?

nitrogen 16y ago
I stopped hosting my own email because I didn't want to navigate the maze of corporate spam filters necessary to make sure I could reach anyone I needed to contact.
dy 16y ago
Why the downvotes? I consider the wanton use of Google Apps also dangerous for startups who may be competing in a space that Google is curious in. I don't believe that Google would read through anyone's emails (mostly because I'm comfortable that 99.99% of Google Engineers/Operations people are good people) but I'm still aware that I leave that decision at their mercy. Think about the things that go through e-mail, Powerpoint strategy decks, git commit messages (not too hard to recreate an entire git repo from the procession of messages being sent) etc. You have to be really careful about who gets access to that kind of information.
elvirs 16y ago
Because access (even if they do, which they dont) to startup emails is not enough to replicate startup's success.
- archgrove 16y ago
  Perhaps not, but it's more than enough to find out strategy, preempt potential competitive advantage, reconstruct development patterns, cherry pick staff members, and gain a huge upper hand in takeover negotiations (potentially driving down acquisition price based on unfortunate private data). Would you write down everything you're doing, and post it to a competitor? Because if you work in an area Google's interested in then that's what you're doing, modulo a privacy policy you'll never find out they've violated (and has happened at least once before - http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/16/business/la-fi-google-firing-20100916 http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/16/business/la-fi-googl...).
  - dy 16y ago
    Good point on the cherry-picking of staff members. I could definitely see Google releasing something like Google Me based on their Gmail and if they did something like Buzz, you'd have your entire company (Google App domain) in the open. In this day and age, information travels fast enough that trying to keep a lid on your top talent is probably useless, but still good to have that information under your control.
kleinsch 16y ago
While it's possible Google might snoop on their competitors email to figure out their strategy, I'd think the possible consequences if they got caught would be too significant for any possible benefit. With regard to the guy that got fired for looking at other people's messages, one rogue engineer messing with a couple people is very different than a deliberate corporate strategy of espionage. If Google got caught doing that, they'd never be able to pursue government or enterprise contracts again.
- archgrove 16y ago
  I agree, and I very much doubt they'd ever do something like this. My argument is just one of prudence - if you wouldn't leave your business plans and private data lying around in a competitors house, why would you risk even the 10^-7% chance that doing so with Google would damage you when running your own e-mail server (or, if you don't want the maintenance, encrypting e-mail through G-mail) is relatively trivial? Looking back in time and given what's happened, would Google the Startup have been wise hosting their e-mail on Hotmail?
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  >With regard to the guy that got fired for looking at other people's messages, one rogue engineer messing with a couple people is very different than a deliberate corporate strategy of espionage. Consider the case of the UK PM's director of communications (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Coulson#Renewed_allegations_on_phone_hacking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Coulson#Renewed_allegation...). He was a newspaper editor that allegedly¹ instigated the use of phone cracking to get info on celebs and public figures. Of course once caught he denied having knowledge despite those doing the cracking saying that he instructed them to do it. Result: the peons get it in the neck and the top brass get positions of greater power. I don't think Google are doing something like that but I'm sure more than one rogue elsewhere, in the past, was actually following orders. ¹ - weasel words! Edit: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/phone-hacking-news-of-the-world-emails-lost-on-the-way-to-india-2164312.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/phone-hacking... for anyone interested; they "lost" the emails sending them to India and of course a major newspaper never keeps backups ...
Sargis 16y ago
It's only natural that we feel we're more important than we actually are. 99.99% of those who have access to your inbox either don't know who you are or they don't give a damn about you or your startup.
ig1 16y ago
You realize in the US company directors can face criminal charges for corporate espionage ?
steveklabnik 16y ago
Give me an interface as nice as Gmail's, and I'll consider it. Add that to Google's Spam filtering, and the fact that I have to do nothing other than change some DNS records to get email for free, and it's really hard to bother to use something else.
- rwl 16y ago
  > Give me an interface as nice as Gmail's, and I'll consider it. How about Gnus? A single interface for mail, news, RSS, even files on your local machine. Regular expression-based filtering and sorting, on arbitrary fields in the header or body of messages. Adaptive scoring for prioritizing new messages. Auto-expiry and deletion of mail that you don't need to read. Completely extensible and hackable in Lisp. And best of all, it's completely integrated with your favorite editor. ;) Honestly, the GMail interface feels really limited to me. The one thing that GMail has -- or should have -- over other mail clients is its ability to search your mail archive. But GMail's search isn't even good! It doesn't match substrings, for example. Grepping a local mail spool is infinitely more powerful.
  - steveklabnik 16y ago
    I don't think "an emacs extension" and "a nice interface" really belong together. (Then again, I'm a vim guy...) Almost none of those features matter to me, and sound like a bunch of extra junk I don't want. I want: 1) Webmail 2) with a reasonable interface 3) and a good spam filter 4) That has a ton of space to save my emails 5) That I don't have to administer.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - rwl 16y ago
      In your first post, you made a clear distinction between the interface and the server-side stuff. Your points 3-5 are all related to server-side stuff. With respect to those things, you can get the benefits of GMail using Gnus or any other mail client (by reading your mail over IMAP or even POP). (True, Gnus requires an initial configuration step -- maybe that counts as "administration" -- that the GMail web interface does not. But that's basically set-and-forget; it doesn't require the kind of monitoring or tweaking that running a mail server does.) As far as the interface itself goes, if GMail works for you, that's great. Personally, I want: 1) to be able to check my mail from a terminal 2) a lot of control over pre-processing of mail, especially in filters that sort messages into groups/folders/labels. I find that simple string-match filters are really limiting. 3) to be able to copy and paste code and other data into and out of my email (e.g., to create new TODO items in Org mode), without using the mouse 4) to have the option to automate tasks like (3) when they become too frequent or annoying to do by hand Different strokes, I guess. :)
whatevers2009 16y ago
In addition to what steveklabnik said, it's also nice that you can integrate all of the Google App services into your system and quickly and conveniently work online and share things via Docs and Calendar by company domain. It makes it super convenient. While there are some certains on privacy, I don't feel the threat outweighs the benefit. It's not like Google is sniffing around to know what you do via your personal email and stuff. They are using that data to target ads. And to be honest, that doesn't matter to me as much.
Mz 16y ago
I have difficulty believing that the folks who work at Google have sufficient time to read the millions (if not billions) of emails they handle daily to snoop out some seedling that might, maybe, someday have sufficient value to be of interest to them. Of course, that assumption might come from the nearly 3000 unread emails in my inbox. Maybe they can keep up with my mail better than I can. (Not a "startup". Just some gal with some websites.) Peace.
Refynr 16y ago
For solo entrepreneurs like myself, one thing like setting up and managing my own mail server isn't a big deal by itself, but add that to all the other little things I do myself (not to mention the other stuff that Google Apps makes easy) and it's an easy choice to simply set up Google Apps and forget it. The chances of Google stealing my idea is virtually nil, and if they wanted to steal it, they just have to go to my public website. Trying to hide what you're doing just seems silly to me in this day and age, so I'm just super-open about it; I'll blog, tweet, & FB what I'm doing on my start-up any time, and let the chips fall where they may...

nitrogen 16y ago

I stopped hosting my own email because I didn't want to navigate the maze of corporate spam filters necessary to make sure I could reach anyone I needed to contact.

dy 16y ago

Why the downvotes? I consider the wanton use of Google Apps also dangerous for startups who may be competing in a space that Google is curious in. I don't believe that Google would read through anyone's emails (mostly because I'm comfortable that 99.99% of Google Engineers/Operations people are good people) but I'm still aware that I leave that decision at their mercy. Think about the things that go through e-mail, Powerpoint strategy decks, git commit messages (not too hard to recreate an entire git repo from the procession of messages being sent) etc. You have to be really careful about who gets access to that kind of information.

elvirs 16y ago

Because access (even if they do, which they dont) to startup emails is not enough to replicate startup's success.

archgrove 16y ago
Perhaps not, but it's more than enough to find out strategy, preempt potential competitive advantage, reconstruct development patterns, cherry pick staff members, and gain a huge upper hand in takeover negotiations (potentially driving down acquisition price based on unfortunate private data). Would you write down everything you're doing, and post it to a competitor? Because if you work in an area Google's interested in then that's what you're doing, modulo a privacy policy you'll never find out they've violated (and has happened at least once before - http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/16/business/la-fi-google-firing-20100916 http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/16/business/la-fi-googl...).
- dy 16y ago
  Good point on the cherry-picking of staff members. I could definitely see Google releasing something like Google Me based on their Gmail and if they did something like Buzz, you'd have your entire company (Google App domain) in the open. In this day and age, information travels fast enough that trying to keep a lid on your top talent is probably useless, but still good to have that information under your control.

kleinsch 16y ago

While it's possible Google might snoop on their competitors email to figure out their strategy, I'd think the possible consequences if they got caught would be too significant for any possible benefit. With regard to the guy that got fired for looking at other people's messages, one rogue engineer messing with a couple people is very different than a deliberate corporate strategy of espionage. If Google got caught doing that, they'd never be able to pursue government or enterprise contracts again.

archgrove 16y ago
I agree, and I very much doubt they'd ever do something like this. My argument is just one of prudence - if you wouldn't leave your business plans and private data lying around in a competitors house, why would you risk even the 10^-7% chance that doing so with Google would damage you when running your own e-mail server (or, if you don't want the maintenance, encrypting e-mail through G-mail) is relatively trivial? Looking back in time and given what's happened, would Google the Startup have been wise hosting their e-mail on Hotmail?
pbhjpbhj 16y ago
>With regard to the guy that got fired for looking at other people's messages, one rogue engineer messing with a couple people is very different than a deliberate corporate strategy of espionage. Consider the case of the UK PM's director of communications (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Coulson#Renewed_allegations_on_phone_hacking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Coulson#Renewed_allegation...). He was a newspaper editor that allegedly¹ instigated the use of phone cracking to get info on celebs and public figures. Of course once caught he denied having knowledge despite those doing the cracking saying that he instructed them to do it. Result: the peons get it in the neck and the top brass get positions of greater power. I don't think Google are doing something like that but I'm sure more than one rogue elsewhere, in the past, was actually following orders. ¹ - weasel words! Edit: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/phone-hacking-news-of-the-world-emails-lost-on-the-way-to-india-2164312.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/phone-hacking... for anyone interested; they "lost" the emails sending them to India and of course a major newspaper never keeps backups ...

Sargis 16y ago

It's only natural that we feel we're more important than we actually are. 99.99% of those who have access to your inbox either don't know who you are or they don't give a damn about you or your startup.

ig1 16y ago

You realize in the US company directors can face criminal charges for corporate espionage ?

steveklabnik 16y ago

Give me an interface as nice as Gmail's, and I'll consider it. Add that to Google's Spam filtering, and the fact that I have to do nothing other than change some DNS records to get email for free, and it's really hard to bother to use something else.

rwl 16y ago
> Give me an interface as nice as Gmail's, and I'll consider it. How about Gnus? A single interface for mail, news, RSS, even files on your local machine. Regular expression-based filtering and sorting, on arbitrary fields in the header or body of messages. Adaptive scoring for prioritizing new messages. Auto-expiry and deletion of mail that you don't need to read. Completely extensible and hackable in Lisp. And best of all, it's completely integrated with your favorite editor. ;) Honestly, the GMail interface feels really limited to me. The one thing that GMail has -- or should have -- over other mail clients is its ability to search your mail archive. But GMail's search isn't even good! It doesn't match substrings, for example. Grepping a local mail spool is infinitely more powerful.
- steveklabnik 16y ago
  I don't think "an emacs extension" and "a nice interface" really belong together. (Then again, I'm a vim guy...) Almost none of those features matter to me, and sound like a bunch of extra junk I don't want. I want: 1) Webmail 2) with a reasonable interface 3) and a good spam filter 4) That has a ton of space to save my emails 5) That I don't have to administer.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - rwl 16y ago
    In your first post, you made a clear distinction between the interface and the server-side stuff. Your points 3-5 are all related to server-side stuff. With respect to those things, you can get the benefits of GMail using Gnus or any other mail client (by reading your mail over IMAP or even POP). (True, Gnus requires an initial configuration step -- maybe that counts as "administration" -- that the GMail web interface does not. But that's basically set-and-forget; it doesn't require the kind of monitoring or tweaking that running a mail server does.) As far as the interface itself goes, if GMail works for you, that's great. Personally, I want: 1) to be able to check my mail from a terminal 2) a lot of control over pre-processing of mail, especially in filters that sort messages into groups/folders/labels. I find that simple string-match filters are really limiting. 3) to be able to copy and paste code and other data into and out of my email (e.g., to create new TODO items in Org mode), without using the mouse 4) to have the option to automate tasks like (3) when they become too frequent or annoying to do by hand Different strokes, I guess. :)

whatevers2009 16y ago

In addition to what steveklabnik said, it's also nice that you can integrate all of the Google App services into your system and quickly and conveniently work online and share things via Docs and Calendar by company domain. It makes it super convenient. While there are some certains on privacy, I don't feel the threat outweighs the benefit. It's not like Google is sniffing around to know what you do via your personal email and stuff. They are using that data to target ads. And to be honest, that doesn't matter to me as much.

Mz 16y ago

I have difficulty believing that the folks who work at Google have sufficient time to read the millions (if not billions) of emails they handle daily to snoop out some seedling that might, maybe, someday have sufficient value to be of interest to them. Of course, that assumption might come from the nearly 3000 unread emails in my inbox. Maybe they can keep up with my mail better than I can. (Not a "startup". Just some gal with some websites.) Peace.

Refynr 16y ago

For solo entrepreneurs like myself, one thing like setting up and managing my own mail server isn't a big deal by itself, but add that to all the other little things I do myself (not to mention the other stuff that Google Apps makes easy) and it's an easy choice to simply set up Google Apps and forget it. The chances of Google stealing my idea is virtually nil, and if they wanted to steal it, they just have to go to my public website. Trying to hide what you're doing just seems silly to me in this day and age, so I'm just super-open about it; I'll blog, tweet, & FB what I'm doing on my start-up any time, and let the chips fall where they may...