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The Secret History of Dune
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ajtulloch 7y agoFor folks interested in the analysis of Dune (and Frank Herbert’s subsequent works), the Podside Picnic podcast (https://soundcloud.com/user-733327042 https://soundcloud.com/user-733327042) ran a “Dune History Month” in August which is worth checking out. The recent one on the Dune Encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dune_Encyclopedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dune_Encyclopedia) was fascinating.
- Jun8 7y agoTIL about Lesley Blanch, quite an interesting travel writer, her obit in NYT sums her life well (https://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/11/arts/11blanch.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/11/arts/11blanch.html), also see this article (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/11347881/On-the-Wilder-Shores-of-Love-a-Bohemian-Life-by-Lesley-Blanch-review.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/113478...) that identifies "The Traveler". Do we still have larger than life, wonderfully knowledgeable men and women any more? As an aside, kanly seems to be a loanword from Turkish with the same meaning, from kan (blood). For a study of other borrowings see (https://dergipark.org.tr/download/article-file/155177 https://dergipark.org.tr/download/article-file/155177)
- edgarvaldes 7y agoSide question: Is it worth reading the entire series of books?
- rihegher 7y agoMy business partner read it three time, the entire collection. I guess it is a good clue
- Drakim 7y agoThe 4th book in the series is the one that either makes you hate Dune or love it. Up until that point it could pass for some interesting sci-fi fantasy, but after that point, either you'll put down the book in boredom or find yourself utterly mindblown. I highly recommend it.
- tspiteri 7y agoWord of warning, the entire series of books should be considered the six books written by Frank Herbert, not any of the poor worse-than-fan-fiction by Brian Herbert + Kevin J Anderson.
- chasingthewind 7y agoI read a few of those and it's just like reading later Sherlock Holmes pastiche. They both capture the setting and the mechanics and completely exorcise the spirit. It's almost sad to read things like that. It's the wish that the author had written still more in mortal conflict with the fact that he didn't.
- AndrewBissell 7y agoIf you're referring only to the Frank Herbert books, then having read them through twice let me offer a resounding YES. They stay really solid throughout, arguably the weakest chapter of the whole series is the second, "Dune Messiah." You can skip everything by Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson.
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- cgriswald 7y agoIn my opinion: Yes! Here's the advice I give to people about the entire Dune series: Read Dune. If you don't like it, stop. Read Dune Messiah. If you don't like it, stop. Read Children of Dune. If you liked Messiah you'll probably like this as well. Read God Emperor of Dune. This one stands alone. Lots of people hate it. Whether you like it or not, don't stop. Read Heretics of Dune. If you don't like it, stop. Read Chapterhouse: Dune. Weep that it's over. In my experience, people who like Dune generally will enjoy at least through Children of Dune. Anyone who enjoys God Emperor of Dune is insane (maybe why it might be my favorite). Regarding the other Dune books, read them out of curiosity if you like, but they're not really Dune books despite being in that universe. I've read about seven of them out of optimism and hope but didn't enjoy them at all. Even Sandworms of Dune which is ostensibly based on Frank Herbert's notes for Dune 7 wasn't enjoyable to me, although it was least bad.
- arethuza 7y agoGod Emperor of Dune is my 2nd favourite of the series after Dune - I regret reading the novels after that though.
- jcranmer 7y ago> Read God Emperor of Dune. This one stands alone. Lots of people hate it. Whether you like it or not, don't stop. Here is the plot of God Emperor of Dune: <SPOILER> sits on their butt all day and discusses politics. Oh, there's a sort of assassination plot happening on the side, but let's not let that distract us from hearing political ruminations! As for (some of) the Dune books whose position in canon is of some dispute: ... I can't recall anything that happened in Dune 7. Surprisingly forgettable. Then again, I don't remember a lot of Heretics or Chapterhouse in the first place. The pre-prequels are set during the events of the Butlerian Jihad and suffer horribly from the sin of feeling the need to explain the genesis of every single important piece of lore in the series. Be amazed as every important event in the universe happened within a hundred years of each other, no matter how unrelated they are to one another.
- milquetoastaf 7y agoI mean if you take a reductive tack like that then you can say the plot of Moby Dick is just that a certain sea captain chases a whale around and some poor simp is along for the ride. The plot isn't the sum of these works, it is the scaffolding provided so that the author can explore various themes and theses.
- Tycho 7y agoDefinitely! As thrilling as the first novel is, when I think of the Dune universe it's content from the sequels that first springs to mind. Great balance of speculative fiction, philosophy, character development and action.
- valiant-comma 7y agoAfter reading entire original series (Dune through Chapterhouse), I eventually read Butlerian Jihad, Hunters of Dune, and Sandworms of Dune. Taken together I felt they provided sufficient context and closure for questions posed in the original series. And notably, although they are written by Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson, the last two in particular are based on notes of Frank Herbert’s for a seventh book, discovered in a safety-deposit box[1]. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20070703213605/http://www.digitalwebbing.com/interviews/042104_anderson.html https://web.archive.org/web/20070703213605/http://www.digita...
- hwwc 7y agoAnother vote for God Emperor. For me, it was a bit overwhelming on first read, but I love that I can keep going back to it. The ones I reread the most (and probably consider the most mind-expanding) are Dune, God Emperor, Heretics, and Chapterhouse.
- ptidhomme 7y agoI was mind blown by Dune I enjoyed Messiah But I just couldn't go through Children. I had to put it down. Felt like an average TV series.
- foobiekr 7y agoI hated Children. God Emoeror on the other hand is great. I’ve never been able to finish Heretics, though. I just get too bored.
- Groxx 7y agoLet me also throw in a recommendation to check out his other books/series, if you enjoy his style of writing (personally he's my favorite). He's remarkably good at that "powerful mental images in very few words" quality that e.g. the first Dune book in particular absolutely nails (partly because it's the first, so everything is new).
- Crontab 7y agoPersonally speaking? I don't think so. I liked the first one but the rest felt like a cashing-in attempt. But that seems to be the case with everything these days.
- acollins1331 7y agoCurrently reading the book, and the second paragraph already had some spoilers so be aware if you are planning on reading it and haven't yet!
- cgriswald 7y agoI've read Dune itself at least a dozen times, and the series as a whole three or four times, so maybe I'm just "Dune-blind", but I've gone over the second paragraph three times now and I can't see a spoiler. I think the synopsis on Amazon has more in the way of spoilers, tbh.
- soperj 7y agoIt's about what Space Guild uses melange for.
- baud147258 7y agoIs it even a spoiler? I read the books a few years ago, but I think it wasn't exactly treated as a secret or something that would spoil your enjoyment of the story if you know about it beforehand.
- cgriswald 7y agoNow that the GP pointed it out, I think it is a bit of a spoiler, but I can't really say why without more spoilers. That said, I agree, it probably won't affect a reading much, if at all.
- lrem 7y agoWell, the guild was apparently rather secretive. At the very beginning Paul, upon entering the heighliner says he might be lucky to see a guildsman... To which the Duke (or Yueh? Some other caregiver?) responds with panicked hushing.
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- hirundo 7y ago> While the story remains unfailingly interesting, Blanch’s detours into the habits of the Russian aristocracy and European power politics, and the memorable personalities that populate the period occasionally detract from the book’s narrative momentum. For me a part of the brilliance of Dune is that Herbert does not commit this sin. He maintains the momentum with only few and relevant digressions. I read the book again after three decades and was amazed that the depth I remembered came from a sparseness of words. I had spun off mere suggestions in the text into baroque textures in my head. It reminds me of the cartoons of James Thurber, who could evoke more with the curve of a line than most artists can with any number. I think this is part of what makes Dune so hard to adapt to film. There is less elaborate description to go by compared to Herbert's more verbose colleagues from Victor Hugo to George R.R. Martin. The imagination of each reader has more room to diverge.
- arethuza 7y agoSometimes digressions can be fun though - Neal Stephenson's works or the footnotes of Infinite Jest.
- optimalsolver 7y agoPeter F Hamilton, in "Pandora's Star", introduces his enemy alien race all in one go, from the beginnings of their civilization to meeting humans. It is AWESOME. By the time you get back to the humans you might have to make an effort to recall why you care about them.
- awinter-py 7y agomuch more to this story. herbert was hired to write an article about how oregon was using grasses to stabilize their dunes, and the article, 'they stopped the moving sands', was never published, but inspired the novel to come https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la-ca-dune18-2010apr18-story.html https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la-ca-dune18-2010apr18... see also this article about arabic words & islamic themes in the book https://baheyeldin.com/literature/arabic-and-islamic-themes-in-frank-herberts-dune.html https://baheyeldin.com/literature/arabic-and-islamic-themes-... 90s pastiche fantasist robert jordan borrowed herbert's technique and even some of his lexicon
- ruricolist 7y agoThere's more to the story even than that. I read the draft of "They Stopped The Moving Sands" in The Road to Dune and wondered: whatever happened to the dune control project? It turns out that the grasses they planted then to control the dunes are now regarded as invasive species, and Boy Scouts earn merit badges by ripping them up.
- hajile 7y agoI'm betting it was less borrowing and more that both were Freemasons (Robert Jordan has specifically said there are elements inspired by the fraternity). The fraternity doesn't require a specific religious belief, but lodges generally slant Jewish, Christian, and Muslim. Many of the various degrees delve into Islamic lore and philosophy. For example, the most public-facing Masonic group (not a degree itself) is the Shriners (they raise money for a bunch of children's hospital they run) and the trapping are Islamic. Rather than copying per-se, both are simply taking what they learned as they rose through the different degrees and are applying that shared philosophy to their writings.
- leekirkhawley 7y agoReading a biography of TE Lawrence and his magnificent book Seven Pillars of Wisdom, I realized that the story of Paul Atreides in Dune is largely based on his life.
- isoos 7y agoTim O'Reilly: Frank Herbert (online version) https://www.oreilly.com/tim/herbert/ https://www.oreilly.com/tim/herbert/ "I wrote Frank Herbert over a period of about two years, and it was published in 1981. In the course of writing it, I read all of Herbert’s novels, stories, and essays, as well as a lot of his newspaper writing (which, by coincidence, included a stint at the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, the local paper for the region in which I now live.) I interviewed him several times, and, in a small way, we became friends. His ideas came to influence me deeply. I had always loved Dune and Dune Messiah, and especially the idea that predicting the future too closely can lead to a kind of paralysis. But the deeper I went, the more substance I found. Ecology, mysticism, and a kind of hard-headed insistence on the relativity of human perception and the limits of knowledge combine into a richer mix than is found in a lot of science-fiction. There’s some really cool stuff here!" (Yeah, that's Tim O'Reilly from O'Reilly Publishing...) It is a must-read for all Dune fans.
- Crontab 7y agoHey, thanks for this link. I can't believe I haven't come across this before now.
- jlourenco27 7y agoIn this summer, for my vacations, I've decided to re-read several of sci-fi books, with some popular new ones, and opted for a ebook reader (kindle) to avoid carring several pounds of books to the beach. Started with Isaac Azimov's Foundation triology (all), made a jump to William Gibson's Neuromancer and now, just ended Frank Herbert's Dune (1st volume only). Coincidence is seeing this article just after returning from the vacation's, still imagining riding on a Shai-Hulud. The only true comment that would like to add to this thread regarding Blanch's "The Sabre Paradise" is something that I've heard from an old teacher: most, probably all the books are derived from Homer's Odyssey; which created most of the writing styles, characters constructions and interactions, world creations, etc. After, there's not a single book that brought anything new to the writing, except the way you mix or the characters that you replace. But even with this idea in mind, we cannot say that reading Homer's Odyssey means that you've read ALL the books, and there isn't not even that this is the best of books. To be honest I like the imagination created by it, but it's real "drag" if you try reading it... At the end, for me at least, what counts is the mood: I prefer Dune over "The Sabre Paradise", the same way that I prefer J.R.Talkien's Lord of the Rings over "All Quiets on Western Front", even if both are based on the developments of the Great World War (I). If you have time (and mood) read'em all... But still, keep away from "Odyssey" (there are a lot of more fun versions of the same story)! :) PS: My next books in line are the (new for me) "Hyperion" and "Three Body Problem" from Liu Cixin. And recommended detours? :)
- Nition 7y agoJust want to add that the Three Body Problem trilogy is exceptionally good. The first book is the slowest, so make sure you read the other two as well. Each one builds up on the last.
- Herodotus38 7y agoMy opinion is to read 3 body problem first and complete the trilogy. I like Hyperion and read all the series but found each subsequent book less satisfying than the last (kind of like reading the sequels to Ender's Game). On the other hand, the series by Cixin gets even better after the first. Have you read The Sparrow or any of Ted Chiang's short stories?
- feydaykyn 7y agoThe Digital Antiquarian did three pieces on adapting Dune a to a screen (movie and game): https://www.filfre.net/2018/11/controlling-the-spice-part-1-dune-on-page-and-screen/ https://www.filfre.net/2018/11/controlling-the-spice-part-1-... These are great, inspiring, detailed oriented articles which brush the history of the teams who loving the book, tried to port it. The first part gives many details on Herbert inspiration and sources, and explain what drove Jodorowsky and Lynch (among others) to make a movie out of it. The following articles are about the games, Dune 1 and Dune 2 (the first RTS game!). This is a great read and the whole website is a treasure trove of great articles about the history of many games of legend, check it out!
- shmerl 7y agoHerbert used many sources. "Kwisatz Haderach" for example comes from Kabbalstic tradition, which in Hebrew (kfitzas haderekh - קפיצת הדרך) means "contraction of the way", referring to ability to warp space (i.e. to travel huge distances in short time). He even describes the term the same way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefitzat_Haderech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefitzat_Haderech
- franczesko 7y agoEarlier this year I decided to catch up with sci-fi classics and Dune was by far one of the best books I've read in the genre. The construction of the world was solid and I had a lot of fun reading through it. Didn't manage to read the other books though - not a big fan of spin offs, but I know many people who liked them.