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We need to do something about this. If I buy a washing machine, I have NO idea how much cost cutting has gotten into it - in fact, companies spend way too much

We need to do something about this. If I buy a washing machine, I have NO idea how much cost cutting has gotten into it - in fact, companies spend way too much money in marketing, shiny stickers, features and IoT bullshit than things like oil bushings that this video is talking about. We need a review website that hires these experts that take things apart, and expose the shitty practices and cost cutting that has taken place so that the consumers are more informed. Kind of like a more formal version of AvE (Youtube fame). And that kind of review methodology needs to get so popular that no manufacturer can escape it. What's capitalism when every one is cheating, lying and depending on the ROI of their marketing budget? Competition disappears, innovation stops and shiny things propel. If you go and buy an dishwasher from Miele, you bet your bottom dollar they are not gonna cut corners like this - because industrial grade equipment needs to last and live up to the daily abuse or its credibility is lost. In consumer market, there is way too much marketing noise than objectivity. Watching this video makes me livid and angry.

jklehm 7y ago
I think you have your answer already. If you want reliability you pay for it by buying the commercial/industrial version that commits to specs upfront and outlines the cost of maintenance for the life cycle of the device. Not saying what the consumer focused side of these businesses is doing is right but there is a work around with defined costs out there.
- maratd 7y ago
  > If you want reliability you pay for it by buying the commercial/industrial version It is frequently very difficult to find the commercial/industrial version, even when you're in the know and actually want it. I'm typing this on a "Pro" laptop. Marketing sticks "commercial grade" on pretty much everything. You have to know which brands service commercial and what their commercial lines are. That's not information that's always easy to find.
  - jklehm 7y ago
    Agreed! Documented specs for any every manufactured good would be amazing.
    - surewhynat 7y ago
      yeah it should really be the law. It's insanity that its not already like that now that you mention it. Food and cosmetics has this in the form of an ingredient list. And even then, as a manufacturer you don't have to list every ingredient depending on the threshold and the region. Why isn't this standardized? We could have open reviews for designs that are known to fail, just like we have open criticism for ingredients that are unhealthy to consume.
  - cr0sh 7y ago
    For a laptop, you might want to look into whatever is used by the military or LEOs - they tend to be ruggedized and designed for abuse. In that vein, the Panasonic Toughbook was the go-to (and may still be - I haven't checked lately). They sold nearly identical consumer versions of the same ruggedized laptop. A lesser known "brand" was made by a company called "General Dynamics" but I don't know if they were/are available to the consumer (I only know about them from the pre-owned market). This place is a good one to see what's out there (I cannot vouch for them as a vendor or seller or anything like that; I've never shopped with them): https://toughruggedlaptops.com https://toughruggedlaptops.com
Arbalest 7y ago
I would love for more things like this. We do have this for phones at least with their teardowns. However appliances aren't so "hot". Might be more difficult to make a business out of it, particularly because "information wants to be free". That makes being a primary producer of information risky, and if it's not something that brings frequent eyeballs on it, then it might not go so well. As Appliances are something we only want to deal with no more often than once a year, the eyeballs won't come, and you have to deal with people absconding with your information and making it free. Edit: and yes, this is the same issue that journalists face. This wouldn't be much different from journalism. The function of journalism is supposed to be the independent watchers, for example, in government so that we can keep them honest. Same sort of deal.
- spectramax 7y ago
  What do you think about a paid service like this? I would gladly pay $20 a year for a membership to get access to detailed tear downs, unbiased reviews and objective analysis (with proper metrology, standards, etc.) iFixit execs - if you're reading, please look into this - you guys already have a phenomenal business and expanding into all sorts of goods and services would be amazing. Instead of repairability rating, we need a Doug score (Youtube fame) for consumer goods and services or even better - measurement results, comparisons, etc.
  - Arbalest 7y ago
    Yeah I did consider a paid service, but that's when I was thinking about the information wants to be free issue. Unless you've got a good legal team, what do you do? I was still trying to think of a way around it, perhaps you could get people interested enough if you market it well? I imagine you'd need complementary info segments to go with it.
- Lucadg 7y ago
  Patreon with early access may be the way to go. You pay a small monthly fee and get access to videos before others. Also, you get to vote on what to review first.
- 7y ago
on_and_off 7y ago
Such a website would be awesome ! I am not sure how it is going to happen, where more and more content on the web is an ad nowadays. From bought amazon reviews to blogs pretending to test products but actually just chasing referral bonuses, hard to find real reviews.
CinchWrench 7y ago
Just watch AvE BOLTR videos instead. At least you'll be able to laugh about it.
- naikrovek 7y ago
  That guy takes sayings and phrases that are funny to hear once, then says them 400,000 times in every video. Each. I can't stand him anymore. I literally cannot hear "keep your dick in the vice" again so long as I live.
  - spectramax 7y ago
    Ditto. Initially entertaining but it wears off quickly. He is obviously very popular so there is something to be said about that - he is truly funny. Also, his analysis is decent but he is no expert by any means like his fans think.
icegreentea2 7y ago
What specific things make you livid and angry?
- spectramax 7y ago
  I cynically think that this is a fall out of top-down direction from management for their little cost cutting bonuses. Short term benefits and incentives (fuck the consumers, durability will be dealt with when I am no longer around) trading off long term consumer loyalty. I hope I am wrong. You can see a stark difference between family run businesses and a firm that has a board of directors.
tacostakohashi 7y ago
That website already exists: https://www.consumerreports.org/ https://www.consumerreports.org/ https://www.choice.com.au/ https://www.choice.com.au/ There might be another organization / name for your country, but this is not a new idea. It seems that only a tiny minority of consumers value this, and the designs you see from mass-market manufactures reflect what consumers actually want when making their purchasing decisions.
- war1025 7y ago
  Maybe I'm just doing it wrong, but I've never really found Consumer Reports to be that informative when I'm looking to buy something. Often they rate things based on features I don't even care about.
  - bt848 7y ago
    For decades the most prominent CR criterion for car reviews was whether a folded wheelchair would fit in the trunk.
    - justin66 7y ago
      The trunk space measure for Car and Driver and other assorted car magazines, at least when it came to sports cars and compacts, was always golf clubs. I've never played and, as a reader, I always wondered what the hell the significance of golf clubs was. The wheelchair metric seems a little more practical. My mother will soon have bought three cars using that as a filter. Or perhaps there's a built in assumption that any car capable of carrying a wheelchair can also carry golf clubs, I don't know.
    - Paperweight 7y ago
      CR and the BBB are cancer. They're worse than irrelevant - they are products of the bygone age of post-war high-trust production. The field is very very ripe for disruption, but bias and conflicting interests are a tough nut to crack.
      - 7y ago
naikrovek 7y ago
There is very strong incentive for anyone that manufactures and sells anything at scale to do it as cheaply as possible. There is a lot of money to be made in parts replacement services, as well. Capitalism sort of guarantees this result after a certain amount of time. Even Miele has cut plenty of corners. Open one of their appliances from 20 years ago, and open another from today, and tell me I'm wrong.
raynr 7y ago
The biggest problem is: how is said review site going to be sustainable? Even apart from what you've mentioned, white goods are a minefield of scummy business practices. Just a few I've seen: (1) Consolidation: reputable companies buy out lower quality brands or merge with other companies, and roll out the lower quality / economy models under the strength of the brand name of their higher end consumer product. The consumer never knows if that year's vacuum cleaner is the reliable model. (2) Sowing confusion through different naming schemes: with different model numbers in different countries, all with subtly different faceplates but mostly identical innards, it is impossible for the consumer to rely on review sites. E.g., RTings is great for TVs... if you live in the USA. (3) Meaningless warranties: e.g. on refrigerators they will give a "10 year compressor warranty" but the compressor isn't the thing that's going to break, it's the touch-screen panel on the front of the fridge, and by the time it breaks there will either be no replacement parts or the replacement and repair / labour cost will be so high you may as well buy a new fridge. Same for washing machines and dryers - the 10 year warranty is worthless, the PCB holding the membrane buttons on the faceplate will vibrate and corrode its way into failure within 2. That's just on the manufacturer's side, and that's not counting things like planned obsolescence. The store is another hell hole of scummy practices (loans, "extended warranties", misleading sales tactics, what have you). So how is this review site sustained? For the rich the cost is immaterial, either they get the high end doodad or they replace the cheap one yearly, whatever amortises better over their lifetimes. The live-in or part-time help probably does all of the work anyway. They don't need a specialised review site. For the poor there is no choice, they will get what is cheap and if it breaks they have to get a new one. They sure aren't going to fund some specialised review site. For the middle, you will make the best decision you can in the time you have and spend it more productively on other things. A review site will be nice but what for? I mean... I'm totally with you on this, but really, what is the solution?
- userbinator 7y ago
  e.g. on refrigerators they will give a "10 year compressor warranty" but the compressor isn't the thing that's going to break, it's the touch-screen panel on the front of the fridge Indeed, the core "refrigerating machine" is extremely reliable, because it's hermetically sealed (a design which dates back to the 1930s --- and the guy who made this video has others on his channel of such machines still in working condition), and it's usually something else that fails first.
GuB-42 7y ago
> If you go and buy an dishwasher from Miele A commercial dishwasher from Miele. Miele also does consumer products, and while they are highly regarded and rather expensive, they are not immune to cost cutting. That's unfortunate but I found that the most cost effective way of buying appliances is to go with major mid-low end consumer brands and accept planned obsolescence. High end consumer often isn't as good as the price make it look and commercial-grade is just too expensive (expect 10x price). Usually, with mid-low end consumer brands, you can expect your appliance to last at least for the duration of the extended warranty period. People offering you extended warranties know what they are doing, and will cover the the time period where your appliance is the least likely to fail.
mindslight 7y ago
You don't need a website. Whatever model you're interested in, the answer is simple: as much cost cutting as fucking possible. Like on the scale of if a certain change saves ten cents per unit, the engineer has justified their own salary for the year. Those new "smart" devices with the fancy touchscreens? Same exact fundamental parts and functionality, plus a half-integrated "smart" module to keep up the veneer that hides the rest of the thing being as uninnovative as possible. If you're lucky, a non-baseline model contains a single extra sensor that enables some increased functionality. Of course that means additional complexity, lower popularity, and higher margin which actually gives you a higher chance of breakage. Ultimately when it comes to appliances, DIY repair or GTFO. Like seriously if this topic is a concern of yours, next time something breaks, just open it up and figure out what's wrong. Odds are it's a simple repair common to the particular model. Youtube is your friend [0], along with some polyurethane coated gloves (sheet metal attacks!). Trying to outsource to a repair person won't help you either. A friend just had their apartment clothes washer die. One of those nicer ones without an agitator that still seems to do a good job getting clothes clean. A rough look says its a mechanical problem with the drum suspension. But the repair person said "control board" - at least $500 for list-price parts and labor, about the same cost as buying a new baseline model with an energy rebate. I've personally concluded that "control board" was likely just a canned response to test whether the customer is serious about paying for the real labor to actually diagnose the problem. So both they and I are getting new washers. I don't actually think it will be the control board, but if it is, I will be highly tempted to just design a new generic one myself, which might as well have Linux and a network link, and see if I can't do my own little part to get us out of this planned obsolescence meets surveillance capitalism mess. [0] The part where it helps you get stuff done, not the part where it spies on you to better psychologically manipulate you. Hell, people with mechanical abilities will probably be priority threats when AI gets serious about optimizing us out of the picture, so you might want to use a VPN. But I digress.
akvadrako 7y ago
Only buy things with long standard warranties. AEG has some dryers with 10-year warranties on the main components. Liefherr sells fridges with 7-year warranties. IKEA's appliances have 5-year warranties as standard.
drewg123 7y ago
"Miele, you bet your bottom dollar they are not gonna cut corners like this" In my experience, sample size 1, Miele dishwashers are junk. We bought a house in 2011 with a Miele dishwasher that was installed around 2007 (previous owners renovated the kitchen). It has broken down every 2 years or so. I think we've probably replaced almost every major part, thankfully under the home warranty that came with the house, and then under the home warranty we purchased when we rented the house out during a temporary relocation. Contrast this to a builder-grade basic GE dishwasher from our old house (which was built around 1995 or so), which never failed. And whose interior got hot as an oven during the drying part of the cycle and actually dried the dishes. The only think the Miele has going for it is that it is quietest dishwasher I've ever used.
- Fins 7y ago
  As another sample of the same size, my mom's house has a Miele dishwasher we've installed in 1997 or so. I occasionally take spray arms off and clean them, and it hasn't had any problems ever. Same for a Miele vacuum of the same age. Maybe they did go downhill since then, but a Miele dishwasher I had installed in one of the apartments I lived at in 2008 or so also still going strong, as far as I know.

jklehm 7y ago

I think you have your answer already. If you want reliability you pay for it by buying the commercial/industrial version that commits to specs upfront and outlines the cost of maintenance for the life cycle of the device. Not saying what the consumer focused side of these businesses is doing is right but there is a work around with defined costs out there.

maratd 7y ago
> If you want reliability you pay for it by buying the commercial/industrial version It is frequently very difficult to find the commercial/industrial version, even when you're in the know and actually want it. I'm typing this on a "Pro" laptop. Marketing sticks "commercial grade" on pretty much everything. You have to know which brands service commercial and what their commercial lines are. That's not information that's always easy to find.
- jklehm 7y ago
  Agreed! Documented specs for any every manufactured good would be amazing.
  - surewhynat 7y ago
    yeah it should really be the law. It's insanity that its not already like that now that you mention it. Food and cosmetics has this in the form of an ingredient list. And even then, as a manufacturer you don't have to list every ingredient depending on the threshold and the region. Why isn't this standardized? We could have open reviews for designs that are known to fail, just like we have open criticism for ingredients that are unhealthy to consume.
- cr0sh 7y ago
  For a laptop, you might want to look into whatever is used by the military or LEOs - they tend to be ruggedized and designed for abuse. In that vein, the Panasonic Toughbook was the go-to (and may still be - I haven't checked lately). They sold nearly identical consumer versions of the same ruggedized laptop. A lesser known "brand" was made by a company called "General Dynamics" but I don't know if they were/are available to the consumer (I only know about them from the pre-owned market). This place is a good one to see what's out there (I cannot vouch for them as a vendor or seller or anything like that; I've never shopped with them): https://toughruggedlaptops.com https://toughruggedlaptops.com

Arbalest 7y ago

I would love for more things like this. We do have this for phones at least with their teardowns. However appliances aren't so "hot". Might be more difficult to make a business out of it, particularly because "information wants to be free". That makes being a primary producer of information risky, and if it's not something that brings frequent eyeballs on it, then it might not go so well. As Appliances are something we only want to deal with no more often than once a year, the eyeballs won't come, and you have to deal with people absconding with your information and making it free. Edit: and yes, this is the same issue that journalists face. This wouldn't be much different from journalism. The function of journalism is supposed to be the independent watchers, for example, in government so that we can keep them honest. Same sort of deal.

spectramax 7y ago
What do you think about a paid service like this? I would gladly pay $20 a year for a membership to get access to detailed tear downs, unbiased reviews and objective analysis (with proper metrology, standards, etc.) iFixit execs - if you're reading, please look into this - you guys already have a phenomenal business and expanding into all sorts of goods and services would be amazing. Instead of repairability rating, we need a Doug score (Youtube fame) for consumer goods and services or even better - measurement results, comparisons, etc.
- Arbalest 7y ago
  Yeah I did consider a paid service, but that's when I was thinking about the information wants to be free issue. Unless you've got a good legal team, what do you do? I was still trying to think of a way around it, perhaps you could get people interested enough if you market it well? I imagine you'd need complementary info segments to go with it.
Lucadg 7y ago
Patreon with early access may be the way to go. You pay a small monthly fee and get access to videos before others. Also, you get to vote on what to review first.
7y ago

on_and_off 7y ago

Such a website would be awesome ! I am not sure how it is going to happen, where more and more content on the web is an ad nowadays. From bought amazon reviews to blogs pretending to test products but actually just chasing referral bonuses, hard to find real reviews.

CinchWrench 7y ago

Just watch AvE BOLTR videos instead. At least you'll be able to laugh about it.

naikrovek 7y ago
That guy takes sayings and phrases that are funny to hear once, then says them 400,000 times in every video. Each. I can't stand him anymore. I literally cannot hear "keep your dick in the vice" again so long as I live.
- spectramax 7y ago
  Ditto. Initially entertaining but it wears off quickly. He is obviously very popular so there is something to be said about that - he is truly funny. Also, his analysis is decent but he is no expert by any means like his fans think.

icegreentea2 7y ago

What specific things make you livid and angry?

spectramax 7y ago
I cynically think that this is a fall out of top-down direction from management for their little cost cutting bonuses. Short term benefits and incentives (fuck the consumers, durability will be dealt with when I am no longer around) trading off long term consumer loyalty. I hope I am wrong. You can see a stark difference between family run businesses and a firm that has a board of directors.

tacostakohashi 7y ago

That website already exists: https://www.consumerreports.org/ https://www.consumerreports.org/ https://www.choice.com.au/ https://www.choice.com.au/ There might be another organization / name for your country, but this is not a new idea. It seems that only a tiny minority of consumers value this, and the designs you see from mass-market manufactures reflect what consumers actually want when making their purchasing decisions.

war1025 7y ago
Maybe I'm just doing it wrong, but I've never really found Consumer Reports to be that informative when I'm looking to buy something. Often they rate things based on features I don't even care about.
- bt848 7y ago
  For decades the most prominent CR criterion for car reviews was whether a folded wheelchair would fit in the trunk.
  - justin66 7y ago
    The trunk space measure for Car and Driver and other assorted car magazines, at least when it came to sports cars and compacts, was always golf clubs. I've never played and, as a reader, I always wondered what the hell the significance of golf clubs was. The wheelchair metric seems a little more practical. My mother will soon have bought three cars using that as a filter. Or perhaps there's a built in assumption that any car capable of carrying a wheelchair can also carry golf clubs, I don't know.
  - Paperweight 7y ago
    CR and the BBB are cancer. They're worse than irrelevant - they are products of the bygone age of post-war high-trust production. The field is very very ripe for disruption, but bias and conflicting interests are a tough nut to crack.
    - 7y ago

naikrovek 7y ago

There is very strong incentive for anyone that manufactures and sells anything at scale to do it as cheaply as possible. There is a lot of money to be made in parts replacement services, as well. Capitalism sort of guarantees this result after a certain amount of time. Even Miele has cut plenty of corners. Open one of their appliances from 20 years ago, and open another from today, and tell me I'm wrong.

raynr 7y ago

The biggest problem is: how is said review site going to be sustainable? Even apart from what you've mentioned, white goods are a minefield of scummy business practices. Just a few I've seen: (1) Consolidation: reputable companies buy out lower quality brands or merge with other companies, and roll out the lower quality / economy models under the strength of the brand name of their higher end consumer product. The consumer never knows if that year's vacuum cleaner is the reliable model. (2) Sowing confusion through different naming schemes: with different model numbers in different countries, all with subtly different faceplates but mostly identical innards, it is impossible for the consumer to rely on review sites. E.g., RTings is great for TVs... if you live in the USA. (3) Meaningless warranties: e.g. on refrigerators they will give a "10 year compressor warranty" but the compressor isn't the thing that's going to break, it's the touch-screen panel on the front of the fridge, and by the time it breaks there will either be no replacement parts or the replacement and repair / labour cost will be so high you may as well buy a new fridge. Same for washing machines and dryers - the 10 year warranty is worthless, the PCB holding the membrane buttons on the faceplate will vibrate and corrode its way into failure within 2. That's just on the manufacturer's side, and that's not counting things like planned obsolescence. The store is another hell hole of scummy practices (loans, "extended warranties", misleading sales tactics, what have you). So how is this review site sustained? For the rich the cost is immaterial, either they get the high end doodad or they replace the cheap one yearly, whatever amortises better over their lifetimes. The live-in or part-time help probably does all of the work anyway. They don't need a specialised review site. For the poor there is no choice, they will get what is cheap and if it breaks they have to get a new one. They sure aren't going to fund some specialised review site. For the middle, you will make the best decision you can in the time you have and spend it more productively on other things. A review site will be nice but what for? I mean... I'm totally with you on this, but really, what is the solution?

userbinator 7y ago
e.g. on refrigerators they will give a "10 year compressor warranty" but the compressor isn't the thing that's going to break, it's the touch-screen panel on the front of the fridge Indeed, the core "refrigerating machine" is extremely reliable, because it's hermetically sealed (a design which dates back to the 1930s --- and the guy who made this video has others on his channel of such machines still in working condition), and it's usually something else that fails first.

GuB-42 7y ago

> If you go and buy an dishwasher from Miele A commercial dishwasher from Miele. Miele also does consumer products, and while they are highly regarded and rather expensive, they are not immune to cost cutting. That's unfortunate but I found that the most cost effective way of buying appliances is to go with major mid-low end consumer brands and accept planned obsolescence. High end consumer often isn't as good as the price make it look and commercial-grade is just too expensive (expect 10x price). Usually, with mid-low end consumer brands, you can expect your appliance to last at least for the duration of the extended warranty period. People offering you extended warranties know what they are doing, and will cover the the time period where your appliance is the least likely to fail.

mindslight 7y ago

You don't need a website. Whatever model you're interested in, the answer is simple: as much cost cutting as fucking possible. Like on the scale of if a certain change saves ten cents per unit, the engineer has justified their own salary for the year. Those new "smart" devices with the fancy touchscreens? Same exact fundamental parts and functionality, plus a half-integrated "smart" module to keep up the veneer that hides the rest of the thing being as uninnovative as possible. If you're lucky, a non-baseline model contains a single extra sensor that enables some increased functionality. Of course that means additional complexity, lower popularity, and higher margin which actually gives you a higher chance of breakage. Ultimately when it comes to appliances, DIY repair or GTFO. Like seriously if this topic is a concern of yours, next time something breaks, just open it up and figure out what's wrong. Odds are it's a simple repair common to the particular model. Youtube is your friend [0], along with some polyurethane coated gloves (sheet metal attacks!). Trying to outsource to a repair person won't help you either. A friend just had their apartment clothes washer die. One of those nicer ones without an agitator that still seems to do a good job getting clothes clean. A rough look says its a mechanical problem with the drum suspension. But the repair person said "control board" - at least $500 for list-price parts and labor, about the same cost as buying a new baseline model with an energy rebate. I've personally concluded that "control board" was likely just a canned response to test whether the customer is serious about paying for the real labor to actually diagnose the problem. So both they and I are getting new washers. I don't actually think it will be the control board, but if it is, I will be highly tempted to just design a new generic one myself, which might as well have Linux and a network link, and see if I can't do my own little part to get us out of this planned obsolescence meets surveillance capitalism mess. [0] The part where it helps you get stuff done, not the part where it spies on you to better psychologically manipulate you. Hell, people with mechanical abilities will probably be priority threats when AI gets serious about optimizing us out of the picture, so you might want to use a VPN. But I digress.

akvadrako 7y ago

Only buy things with long standard warranties. AEG has some dryers with 10-year warranties on the main components. Liefherr sells fridges with 7-year warranties. IKEA's appliances have 5-year warranties as standard.

drewg123 7y ago

"Miele, you bet your bottom dollar they are not gonna cut corners like this" In my experience, sample size 1, Miele dishwashers are junk. We bought a house in 2011 with a Miele dishwasher that was installed around 2007 (previous owners renovated the kitchen). It has broken down every 2 years or so. I think we've probably replaced almost every major part, thankfully under the home warranty that came with the house, and then under the home warranty we purchased when we rented the house out during a temporary relocation. Contrast this to a builder-grade basic GE dishwasher from our old house (which was built around 1995 or so), which never failed. And whose interior got hot as an oven during the drying part of the cycle and actually dried the dishes. The only think the Miele has going for it is that it is quietest dishwasher I've ever used.

Fins 7y ago
As another sample of the same size, my mom's house has a Miele dishwasher we've installed in 1997 or so. I occasionally take spray arms off and clean them, and it hasn't had any problems ever. Same for a Miele vacuum of the same age. Maybe they did go downhill since then, but a Miele dishwasher I had installed in one of the apartments I lived at in 2008 or so also still going strong, as far as I know.