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I think a huge part of it is that getting a “good” job out of college has never been more competitive and more important. The idea that one works their way up f
by tempsy 7y ago
I think a huge part of it is that getting a “good” job out of college has never been more competitive and more important. The idea that one works their way up from a secretarial position to executive could not be more unrealistic today. On the other hand, if you beat the competition (your peers) to get a reputable corporate gig at a big co, well known startup, or prestigious consulting or banking you’re setting yourself up for life. Not getting one of those jobs out of college makes it near impossible to be hired at those companies even a year or two down the road simply because many of those companies source all their entry level people from colleges and past interns.
Your trajectory is just so different depending on your first job and I think everyone is acutely aware but no one wants to talk about it.
- cmxch 7y agoSo how do you get the best out of "less desirable" situations (which might include temp-to-hire or staffing agency work)?
- wallace_f 7y agoI wish it was only fair "competition." Even at the best schools (especially at the best?) it is a lot about family/friend relationships, corruption (ymmv by field).
- twblalock 7y agoThe well-connected people you are describing will be fine no matter what. The majority of students are the ones who will need to compete for jobs after they graduate.
- apples12345 7y agoTotally agree about the getting job part, but as someone who got a job in a big bank as a software developer as well as getting a graduate degree life still sucks.... when not only I feel like a wage slave but my friends who have even better jobs feel like wage slaves and are constantly looking for the next job it’s depressing all around...
- twblalock 7y agoThat's not really a new thing though. The difference is that previous generations of graduates were happy with what you call "wage slavery" -- a stable job at a big company.
- TuringNYC 7y agoThey were probably happy with it because at least it was an option. Not the best option for everyone but at least an option. That option today is rarely the case — Since the late 1980s — and especially now given fleeting corporate entities — there is no longer a sense of commitment. When workers see no commitments they also show little loyalty. It is a downward spiral. Great if you can hop up the spiral (eg right school, right network, right background), but unfortunate otherwise.
- apples12345 7y agois it stable though? I'm sure coworkers are always worried about losing their jobs if they don't do better.
- bigred100 7y agoI feel like this is family’s fault. A family who is professional/UMC should be able to afford a child not immediately succeeding at getting a top job and staying home while going on interviews etc. If you can’t, admit it and adjust your expectations downward to something realistic instead of demanding the kid walk such a thin rope.
- PorterDuff 7y ago"I think a huge part of it is that getting a “good” job out of college has never been more competitive and more important." That's an interesting point as opposed to the over-observed fragility of modern college students. There's probably something to be learned from the different school and employment bottlenecks in Japan.
- twblalock 7y agoAs all of my Japanese friends have told me, students work extremely hard to get into a prestigious college and basically slack off after they get in. The education is not very important because large employers expect to train everyone they hire anyway. University education in Japan is almost entirely a signaling exercise, and passing the entry exams for prestigious universities is mainly proof that one is willing to work extremely hard to fulfill social expectations. Oh, and Japan also has a bit of a college affordability problem too. Overall the Japanese system is not something to emulate.
- golemiprague 7y agoThat's no different to any other country, it is not like student in the Ivy league work so much harder than someone in other decent universities but the most important thing is the signalling.
- jammygit 7y agoThe Korean practice is similar, according to some essay research I did a few years ago: work dangerously hard to get into a good school, then slack off. It harkens back to the old Chinese system of civil service examinations (copied somewhat in Korea at least), which were extremely intense and basically the gateway to your future prospects
- lasagnaphil 7y agoKorean grad student here. That was actually true for Korean college students when things were prosperous, but since the recessions (one in 1997 and another one in 2008) things have gone worse. There was a time where if you entered the top universities you almost automatically had a decent job, but nowadays students know this isn’t the case anymore. Nowadays even the students in the top universities take pressure with maintaining their GPAs and English exam scores, so I think the situation is a bit different than Japan (although I still think US colleges have more intense workloads, from what I’ve heard...)
- hourislate 7y agoI don't know if you read the article but I think the authors clearly state what they think is the issue and it isn't finding your first job. From the article: >“It suggests that something is seriously wrong in the lives of young people and that whatever went wrong seemed to happen around 2012, or 2013,” said study coauthor Jean Twenge. She noted that this was around the time smartphones became common and social media moved from being optional to mandatory among youngsters. >The study wasn’t designed to determine the causes of the increases in mental health issues among college students, though the authors speculate about a variety of possibilities. Smartphone use, for example, has been associated with poorer sleep quality and fewer face-to-face interactions, both of which are deemed essential for mental health, the researchers write in the Journal of Adolescent Health.
- maxaf 7y agoEvery person with half a brain already knows that smartphones and social media have destroyed at least one generation of Americans. There is a cohort of Gen Z that’s growing up without access to social media; these are the true future leaders of the world. These are the people who will command the income and power over the next 30-40 years.
- olefoo 7y ago> smartphones and social media have destroyed at least one generation of Americans. According to millennials it's the boomers. According to the boomers it's the millennials. Meanwhile Gen-X and the Silent generation are observing that everyone; even people who don't use social media directly are affected by the change in how truth is socially constructed.
- permatech 7y agoCan you tell me more about this group? What sets them apart from the teens on social media today?
- DarthMader 7y agoWhile I think those that forgo social media while growing up are more likely to have better attention spans and ability to focus, I'd also guess they're just as likely to be significantly socially out of the loop. This is a bold claim to make without citing anything.
- elevenoh 7y ago"On the other hand, if you beat the competition (your peers) to get a reputable corporate gig at a big co, well known startup, or prestigious consulting or banking you’re setting yourself up for life." Statements like these reveal so much implicit values/philosophy. Viewing life - success, output, fulfillment etc - through lenses like this is the issue IMO.
- aklemm 7y agoThis sentiment resonates. People seem unable and uninterested in pursuing anything meaningful.
- TeMPOraL 7y agoIt seems to me that our economy is extremely good at removing meaning from anything. Great many jobs - possibly most - involve being paid for doing arbitrary tasks that become inputs to further arbitrary tasks that make money for someone else. A worker is just a replaceable piece in a vast machinery. And even if you elect to search for meaning on the front lines of value delivery - if you become, say, a doctor, or a fireman - you'll discover your job is as much about helping people as it is about making money and preserving your ability to make money. I wonder whether it's just the price of progress, of increasing complexity in human organization? As heartbreaking as it is, could it be any different?
- lotsofpulp 7y ago>As heartbreaking as it is, could it be any different? Not if all those 401(k), IRA, and defined benefit pension funds want fat ROIs. There is something quite humorous about people working hard to earn money to invest, and then those same investments causing them to work even harder to meet their ROIs.
- dmoy 7y agoHuh, total US retirement stuff about a year ago was ~$28T, and total US market cap at the same time was ~$30T. Now obviously there's not complete overlap there, because a huge chunk of retirement accounts are not invested in equities at all, and a less huge but still significant chunk is not invested in US equities. However, that means that the remainder is still a massive chunk of all US equities. I would not have guessed this, given the size of the average person's 401(k). My guess was much smaller. Not sure if I'm worried or relieved to be wrong about that.
- manfredo 7y agoI'm not sure I follow. Unemployment rates are at record low. The claim that getting a job out of college "has never been more competitive and more important" seems off to me, coming from someone who witnessed the 2008 depression. Back then, people were concerned with getting a job not just a high-status job.
- mjevans 7y agoThe number's you're quoting are mostly economic fantasy. Under-employment is closer, but still fails to account those that have given up hope entirely or who haven't been employed before (but should be working).
- manfredo 7y agoRight. Now imagine what the underemployment rate was during the recession when the unemployment rate was three times higher. The claim that it's harder to get a job out of university today than it was a decade ago is very dubious.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Hermitian909 7y agoThe parent isn't just talking about jobs though, they're talking about good jobs that allow for a comfortable life. Getting a job as a barista isn't tough in this economy, but if you have a law degree from a school that isn't from the top 40 your odds of doing any law work are getting much slimmer; I've met several such people stuck in low paying jobs. In my father's day a cashier could buy a home in a nice neighborhood (like the bay area) and live comfortably; in large portions of the country that same position now pays poverty wages and homelessness is a constant threat. Life's pretty miserable if you're constantly worried about having a roof over your head or enough food to eat.
- manfredo 7y ago
- gtfratteus 7y agoMany people are not acutely aware of this. Otherwise they wouldn't be majoring in international studies.
- point78 7y agoThis was just as true 30 years ago also
- bayesian_horse 7y agoJust looking at unemployment statistics, it does not seem like there should be tougher job-competition from a market-based point of view. Certainly not in STEM. But other college graduates aren't faring that much worse either. So if competition is a stress factor in this, then it can't be explained by market forces.
- taurath 7y agoWhat social/wealth class you get into is determined by those factors your said. It’s not a new concept, but it’s one in America we tend to try to pretend it doesn’t exist, because that would be bad for the upper classes.
- _pmf_ 7y ago> The idea that one works their way up from a secretarial position to executive could not be more unrealistic today. Is it? I would guess that it's much, much easier than 50 years ago or 100 years ago (it's still hard, obviously). It's open to a much wider range of persons. Denying this is intellectually dishonest.