3 ms·

Do you support telemetry if it makes the product better, and not used for ad targeting?

by mips_avatar 7y ago

justinclift 7y ago
Only if it's optional, and can be turned off completely.
- andrewbinstock 7y ago
  And if its presence is made clear upfront, rather than buried deep in a Terms of Use contract.
lewisj489 7y ago
Not sure why you're being downvoted. Telemtery can be a invaluable tool for a whole bunch of reasons. It should, of course, be optional. I think only 1 type of telemetry shouldn't ask for permission, a quick, anonymous ping to say it's been installed.
- tremon 7y ago
  a quick, anonymous ping Sure, but for it to be anonymous it should not contain the sender's IP address. That probably means an UDP message with nulled source ip, which runs foul of many ISP's egress filters (and rightly so). So, realistically speaking, there is no such thing as an anonymous ping. Or am I missing an obvious solution here?
  - jefftk 7y ago
    You could have an aggregation service, run by a trusted independent non-profit. It could have a strong privacy policy and external auditing.
alxlaz 7y ago
Not parent but it's something that's been bugging me for a while (especially since I work in a field where you often have to debug based on field logs from three weeks ago from a device halfway across the world). My two cents, I think telemetry is OK if: * It has a retention policy that ensures a data breach five years down the road won't compromise five years' worth of relevant data. 30 days of full data + maybe an year of relevant analytics (but no detailed data) are more than enough to improve software. Five years' worth of data, even if it's not strictly speaking personal data, can make identity theft trivial. * The processes and criteria for who gets to access that data and in what manner are clear, transparent, enforceable and can be subjected to appeal by any user. Can I be reasonably sure (i.e. based on public, legally-binding statements from Microsoft) that, for instance, a Microsoft employee who has a beef with me won't be able to stalk me based on that data? * For a large system or a piece of hardware, if I can have a reasonable assurance that, at least in the short-term (1-2 years), the data won't end up being used for ad targeting. An OS or a piece of hardware is something that you don't switch that often. If I make a purchase, I'd like to be sure that the reasons why I made it remain valid for a while. "Makes the product better" is a great reason and I'd wholeheartedly support that, as long as I had an assurance that my data is handled responsibly. I'm just sayin' -- if I break the terms of doing business with Microsoft (e.g. by using a pirated copy), there's a good chance that some DMCA organization comes knocking at my door and the best I can hope for is an out-of-court settlement that ruins me. I sure as hell expect that, if Microsoft breach the terms of doing business, someone can go knocking at their door and the best they can hope for is an out-of-court settlement that ruins them. That's why I insist on "legally binding". A blog post that says we totally don't spy on you is something that you can breach without any real consequences. Until that's the case (or, you know, until there's no data being siphoned...) I can do my work on Linux just fine, I don't need no damn WSL :-).
raxxorrax 7y ago
IF it is disabled by default and getting rid of it is not an enterprise feature... sure.
ZiiS 7y ago
How would we know, the is no documented case of this ever happening?
tannhaeuser 7y ago
No. Because keylogging and capturing other UI events can be used to reconstruct what you're working on. It thus fails basic obligations the law puts onto you when working with customer's documents, data, or code. Using telemetry, and implementing telemetry in your app is just asking for getting sued big time.
coldtea 7y ago
That should be up to the user to decide. If millions want to provide telemetry that's enough to make the product better. Why have other millions who don't want suffer it?
userbinator 7y ago
I think "make the product better" is really an excuse, considering what has actually happened with the changes in Win10. The most useful changes have been suggestions that came from the users themselves (of which they ignore most of them anyway), not by watching them. "The telemetry told us to do it" is a convenient excuse for making unwanted changes, because everyone else doesn't have access to the data and even if they did, it could still have been massaged to fit their narrative.

Do you support telemetry if it makes the product better, and not used for ad targeting?

justinclift 7y ago

Only if it's optional, and can be turned off completely.

andrewbinstock 7y ago
And if its presence is made clear upfront, rather than buried deep in a Terms of Use contract.

lewisj489 7y ago

Not sure why you're being downvoted. Telemtery can be a invaluable tool for a whole bunch of reasons. It should, of course, be optional. I think only 1 type of telemetry shouldn't ask for permission, a quick, anonymous ping to say it's been installed.

tremon 7y ago
a quick, anonymous ping Sure, but for it to be anonymous it should not contain the sender's IP address. That probably means an UDP message with nulled source ip, which runs foul of many ISP's egress filters (and rightly so). So, realistically speaking, there is no such thing as an anonymous ping. Or am I missing an obvious solution here?
- jefftk 7y ago
  You could have an aggregation service, run by a trusted independent non-profit. It could have a strong privacy policy and external auditing.

alxlaz 7y ago

Not parent but it's something that's been bugging me for a while (especially since I work in a field where you often have to debug based on field logs from three weeks ago from a device halfway across the world). My two cents, I think telemetry is OK if: * It has a retention policy that ensures a data breach five years down the road won't compromise five years' worth of relevant data. 30 days of full data + maybe an year of relevant analytics (but no detailed data) are more than enough to improve software. Five years' worth of data, even if it's not strictly speaking personal data, can make identity theft trivial. * The processes and criteria for who gets to access that data and in what manner are clear, transparent, enforceable and can be subjected to appeal by any user. Can I be reasonably sure (i.e. based on public, legally-binding statements from Microsoft) that, for instance, a Microsoft employee who has a beef with me won't be able to stalk me based on that data? * For a large system or a piece of hardware, if I can have a reasonable assurance that, at least in the short-term (1-2 years), the data won't end up being used for ad targeting. An OS or a piece of hardware is something that you don't switch that often. If I make a purchase, I'd like to be sure that the reasons why I made it remain valid for a while. "Makes the product better" is a great reason and I'd wholeheartedly support that, as long as I had an assurance that my data is handled responsibly. I'm just sayin' -- if I break the terms of doing business with Microsoft (e.g. by using a pirated copy), there's a good chance that some DMCA organization comes knocking at my door and the best I can hope for is an out-of-court settlement that ruins me. I sure as hell expect that, if Microsoft breach the terms of doing business, someone can go knocking at their door and the best they can hope for is an out-of-court settlement that ruins them. That's why I insist on "legally binding". A blog post that says we totally don't spy on you is something that you can breach without any real consequences. Until that's the case (or, you know, until there's no data being siphoned...) I can do my work on Linux just fine, I don't need no damn WSL :-).

raxxorrax 7y ago

IF it is disabled by default and getting rid of it is not an enterprise feature... sure.

ZiiS 7y ago

How would we know, the is no documented case of this ever happening?

tannhaeuser 7y ago

No. Because keylogging and capturing other UI events can be used to reconstruct what you're working on. It thus fails basic obligations the law puts onto you when working with customer's documents, data, or code. Using telemetry, and implementing telemetry in your app is just asking for getting sued big time.

coldtea 7y ago

That should be up to the user to decide. If millions want to provide telemetry that's enough to make the product better. Why have other millions who don't want suffer it?

userbinator 7y ago

I think "make the product better" is really an excuse, considering what has actually happened with the changes in Win10. The most useful changes have been suggestions that came from the users themselves (of which they ignore most of them anyway), not by watching them. "The telemetry told us to do it" is a convenient excuse for making unwanted changes, because everyone else doesn't have access to the data and even if they did, it could still have been massaged to fit their narrative.