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Uhhh what happened here is that the VLC guys (specificaly Rémi Denis-Courmont) contacted Apple to urge them to remove the app. So that is what they did. Kind o

by st3fan 16y ago

Uhhh what happened here is that the VLC guys (specificaly Rémi Denis-Courmont) contacted Apple to urge them to remove the app. So that is what they did. Kind of weird to blame Apple for following up to a copyright violation. It is now between VLC and Applidium to figure out how to proceed. Apple is not part of this. Developers need to play within the bounds of the App Store license terms.

lwhi 16y ago
Apple needs to be willing to discuss issues. Too often, their position can be summarised as 'my way, or the highway'. -- Apple is not part of this. Developers need to play within the bounds of the App Store license terms No - Apple needs to be accountable to an impartial regulatory body.
- sigzero 16y ago
  "No - Apple needs to be accountable to an impartial regulatory body." That is a ridiculous assumption.
  - lwhi 16y ago
    May I ask why my opinion is ridiculous? Other industries (telecommunications for example) have regulatory bodies which oversee good practice. I don't see why it's ridiculous to imagine a regulatory body overseeing good practice for privately created IP-focused marketplaces.
    - Anechoic 16y ago
      telecommunications for example Telecommunications (in the USA) used publicly-owned airwaves and in too-many cases have de facto or de jure monopolies. Neither applies to Apple.
      - lwhi 16y ago
        Which other company can I use to sell my iOS-based application?
        ptomato 16y ago
        You can, however, develop for plenty of different smartphones.
        lwhi 16y ago
        To avoid duplicating too much information, the second part of this reply[1] provides reasons why don't feel this is necessarily a good argument. [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2083312 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2083312
        deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
        maximilianburke 16y ago
        Or, from the consumer's point of view, what other service can I use to buy iOS applications?
        jad 16y ago
        iOS or iOS-based devices are not a market. Smartphones or tablet computers or personal computers are markets. Consider that the government concern with Microsoft in the 90s wasn't its monopoly position in "Windows," which is tautological, but PC operating systems broadly, which includes Linux and Macs. The smartphone and tablet computer markets are among the most competitive in the country right now. By definition this means no one has a monopoly.
        deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
        innernette 16y ago
    - raganwald 16y ago
      It's not ridiculous, but it's also not compatible with the principles of free markets that are in force in Canada and the USA at this time. Apple is not a monopoly. It has a monopoly over those who choose to be its customers and those who choose to be its developers, but that is no different than saying that Levis has a monopoly over the black jeans that Steve Jobs wears. Things become different when someone can show that Apple has a monopoly position over an entire market, or that Apple's product or service is an essential product or service. For example, although there is plenty of competition amongst landlords for apartments, most jurisdictions have specific laws that limit the enforceable provisions of a lease. At this moment in time, I don't personally see Apple enjoying a monopoly position in its market, not do I see video player applications as an essential good or service.
      - lwhi 16y ago
        It's not ridiculous, but it's also not compatible with the principles of free markets that are in force in Canada and the USA at this time. I agree, regulation has traditionally been put in place to deal with the creation of monopolies. Personally - I think the question of whether Apple's AppStore constitutes a monopoly is a grey area. They are the only company authorised to sell applications developed for iOS. Supporters of Apple's current policy would argue that other application platforms are available. To this, I would offer the counter-argument that prior investment (time/money/effort) encourages developers and customers to stick with (and put up with) most rules Apple decides to enforce. Choice is (theoretically) available, but many developers and users will be placed in a situation where there they aren't. -- These IP-marketplaces are new - and, as with most things that are digitally-based, a great deal of power is available to whoever is in charge. More power, provides more scope for abuse. I think that some kind of regulation - either through new legislation or a regulatory body needs to be provided. -- Lastly - as Apple isn't providing a free-market to those who sell through it's AppStore, isn't it a little ironic that a desire for free-market economics is provided as a reason against regulation?
        Anechoic 16y ago
        I think the question of whether Apple's AppStore constitutes a monopoly is a grey area. Not even close to a grey area unless you want to argue that Nike has a monopoly on athletic shoes that have the Nike 'swoosh.' To this, I would offer the counter-argument that prior investment (time/money/effort) encourages developers and customers to stick with (and put up with) most rules Apple decides to enforce. Choice is (theoretically) available, but many developers and users will be placed in a situation where there they aren't. How is that different from pretty much every other market where some business decides to create a product that relies on another business' product?
- redial 16y ago
  And the position of some of the VLC developers isn't my way or the highway? They requested Apple to (a)change the policies of the store or (b)remove the software from it, and they got exactly that. Then they complained.
  - tmp476234 16y ago
    There are 3 groups of developers here. A) The ones who ported VLC and posted it on the App Store. B) The ones who complained about the terms of the App Store. C) The ones who are complaining now. I'm sure there is some overlap, but I don't see how you can criticize members of group C who are not in group B.
    - sigzero 16y ago
      I don't think he made a distinction nor do I see a reason for him too. He could have same "some" instead of "they" I guess.
- st3fan 16y ago
  "Apple needs to be willing to discuss issues. Too often, their position can be summarised as 'my way, or the highway'." Well, it is their platform and their store. If you think the rules are unfair then you can also develop for other platforms. First, Apple had ZERO problems with approving VLC and getting it on the store. The app is gone now, but that is not because Apple changed their position, they simply responded to an alledged copyright/license issue reported by the original owner of the code. The reason that the app has been removed is because the VLC developers, specifially Rémi Denis-Courmont, has requested Apple to remove the app from the store because of what license conflicts. They would respond in exactly the same way if the GPL were not involved. Seriously, Apple is currently working in the best interest of the claimed rights holder of VLC: it removed the app so that VLC and Applidium can figure this out. This is not a case of Apple Against GPL: As soon as Applidium and VLC think they can actually work with the terms of the GPL and App Store then they can send that message to Apple and resubsmit the app. I sure hope they do, but from what I've seen so far, the VLC folks seem to be extremely anti-Apple. We all lose. Thanks VLC.
  - lwhi 16y ago
    Well, it is their platform and their store. [..] I often hear this rhetoric provided as the de facto reason for why Apple (and other corporations governing IP-marketplaces) should be able to do whatever they like. If this was true - why can't a telecommunications company operate in whichever way they choose? Why do we have regulatory frameworks which address the problem of monopolies or the formation of cartels? Because sometimes corporations aren't working in the interest of the public at large; and they need to operate within a larger framework which has been put in place for the benefit of society. To enable them to do so effectively - traditionally, regulatory bodies are put in place to oversee good practice. I hope the same happens to regulate these new IP-focused marketplaces. -- [..] If you think the rules are unfair then you can also develop for other platforms. I don't think this is necessarily true. People (customers, developers and businesses) have to invest a great deal of time, effort and money when they choose to develop for (or make use of) a specific platform. Switching is expensive - and eventually common sense dictates that its more likely that those who have invested, are likely to put up with rules and regulations which they might otherwise see as unfair. Also, once a developer has produced their iOS-based product - they are forced to sell through one marketplace; the Apple AppStore - which is also cause for concern in my opinion.
jbk 16y ago
Totally not. A VLC developer complained to Apple about a copyright violation in October. Apple pulled it unilaterally yesterday, after more than 2 months of silence, after refusing to help people, notably me, to solve the matter. So, Apple is definitively "part of this". Not to mention that you are speaking about "VLC" which doesn't mean anything, since it isn't a legal entity. And to finish "AppStore license terms" change all the time... So it is hard to "play within the bounds".
- jedsmith 16y ago
  > Apple pulled it unilaterally yesterday, after more than 2 months of silence, after refusing to help people, notably me, to solve the matter. Of course they did. It took them two months to process the complaint after one of the VideoLAN developers made it, but they followed through on an action that "a VLC developer" initiated. With respect, if a developer representing VideoLAN complains to Apple, and another developer representing VideoLAN and claiming to be in charge approaches and tries to "work it out", Apple is not going to step into what appears to be an internal dispute. I am never an Apple apologist as I think they're a bit heavy-handed with the App Store, but in this case, how would you expect them to act? This is what "a VLC developer" wanted, and he got it. I don't think Apple is the bad guy here in the slightest. I hope you're not trying to shift blame from the developer who initiated this to an easy target, Apple, because your original comment in this thread would make it appear that way.
  - jbk 16y ago
    > Apple is not going to step into what appears to be an internal dispute No, here, the dispute was from one copyright holder against the distributor, Apple. > how would you expect them to act? Very simply, by answering to the mails asking for clarifications on the ToS, so a solution could have come up.
    - st3fan 16y ago
      "simply, by answering to the mails asking for clarifications on the ToS, so a solution could have come up." Yeah, but unfortunately one of your team members, Rémi Denis-Courmont, had already used the nuclear option: informing Apple about a copyright infringement and asking them to remove the app from the store. So that is what Apple did. The problem is that you guys are not working as a team. One person, Remi, is extremely bitter about this app being on the store (see the wording of his messages and that last blog post) and basically wants it to disappear forever. I do not see any signals that Remi is approaching this the same way as you. You seem to want to resolve this, he just wants the app to be gone and never appear again. You keep saying that there is no such thing as 'VLC the legal entity'. And that is probably how it looks from Apple's perspective: one guy requests the app to be removed, some other random person is trying to fix things. In other words: you guys messed this up by not being a coherent team. Remi should have NEVER EVER sent that message. You guys should have come to agreement and worked with Apple as a team. Fixing this is probably possible, but it requires cooperation from Rémi Denis-Courmont. You guys (here I say it again) will probably have to send a more formal letter to Apple to retract the initial complaint and then see if you can work together to fix this or to be more lenient and to simply say: we know this situation is not ideal, but thinking of millions of users who are using our software, we are going to let this happen anyway to see if we things can change in the longer term.
anigbrowl 16y ago
the VLC guys (specificaly Rémi Denis-Courmont) contacted Apple to urge them to remove the app Citation please.
- st3fan 16y ago
  See http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2010-October/077325.html http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2010-October... It is funny how Jean-Baptiste Kempf keeps telling us here that there is no 'VLC legal entity' but at the same time Rémi sends out messages like the above in a press release style as if they are officially coming from the 'VLC Group'. Anyway, Apple was contacted because of a copyright infringement. As anyone who has experience with the App Store knows, their action is then to simply pull the app, inform the developer (which is Applidium in this case and NOT VLC) and then leave the matter in the hands of those parties. As far as Apple is concerned this matter is over. Until Applidium contacts them (because they are the ones having a contract with Apple) with a good reason to allow the app back in the store.
adaml_623 16y ago
Haha I think it's actually a case of Apple should make it's App Store license and operations more flexible. And clearer. And be more communicative. I'm actually serious about all the above points.
lambda 16y ago
> Apple is not part of this Apple is absolutely part of this. Apple is the party that has released a platform that you cannot install software on without going through them for permission (unless you jailbreak it using a remote-root vulnerability which is patched in more recent releases). Apple is the party that decides what can be in its app store under what rules; and it has decided to use a set of rules that are incompatible with the GPL. Apple has thus chosen to limit the software that is installable on their platform. Apple could choose to allow VLC; they have the choice of making their terms compatible with the GPL (it's not that hard; just don't impose any additional restrictions on top of the ones that the GPL already imposes, and let the authors handle the rest of the GPL's requirements), or enabling people to side-load apps outside of the App store. Google does both on Android; the market terms are compatible with the GPL, and they allow side-loading (and even rooting on some phones). However Apple chooses not to do this. Thus, Apple is limiting the set of software that can be used on their phone. If you use an iPhone (or iPad, or iPod Touch), you should be aware of this; you may not ever be able to get some software on it without cracking your phone's security, and Apple may be arbitrary and capricious in what they choose to allow and disallow. Apple may also remotely disable and uninstall software or content that is on your phone. If you want to choose what to install on your own phone, you should either buy a phone that gives you more freedom, or jailbreak your phone and then install whatever you want.

by st3fan 16y ago

lwhi 16y ago

Apple needs to be willing to discuss issues. Too often, their position can be summarised as 'my way, or the highway'. -- Apple is not part of this. Developers need to play within the bounds of the App Store license terms No - Apple needs to be accountable to an impartial regulatory body.

sigzero 16y ago
"No - Apple needs to be accountable to an impartial regulatory body." That is a ridiculous assumption.
- lwhi 16y ago
  May I ask why my opinion is ridiculous? Other industries (telecommunications for example) have regulatory bodies which oversee good practice. I don't see why it's ridiculous to imagine a regulatory body overseeing good practice for privately created IP-focused marketplaces.
  - Anechoic 16y ago
    telecommunications for example Telecommunications (in the USA) used publicly-owned airwaves and in too-many cases have de facto or de jure monopolies. Neither applies to Apple.
    - lwhi 16y ago
      Which other company can I use to sell my iOS-based application?
      - ptomato 16y ago
        You can, however, develop for plenty of different smartphones.
        lwhi 16y ago
        To avoid duplicating too much information, the second part of this reply[1] provides reasons why don't feel this is necessarily a good argument. [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2083312 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2083312
        deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
      - maximilianburke 16y ago
        Or, from the consumer's point of view, what other service can I use to buy iOS applications?
      - jad 16y ago
        iOS or iOS-based devices are not a market. Smartphones or tablet computers or personal computers are markets. Consider that the government concern with Microsoft in the 90s wasn't its monopoly position in "Windows," which is tautological, but PC operating systems broadly, which includes Linux and Macs. The smartphone and tablet computer markets are among the most competitive in the country right now. By definition this means no one has a monopoly.
        deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
        innernette 16y ago
  - raganwald 16y ago
    It's not ridiculous, but it's also not compatible with the principles of free markets that are in force in Canada and the USA at this time. Apple is not a monopoly. It has a monopoly over those who choose to be its customers and those who choose to be its developers, but that is no different than saying that Levis has a monopoly over the black jeans that Steve Jobs wears. Things become different when someone can show that Apple has a monopoly position over an entire market, or that Apple's product or service is an essential product or service. For example, although there is plenty of competition amongst landlords for apartments, most jurisdictions have specific laws that limit the enforceable provisions of a lease. At this moment in time, I don't personally see Apple enjoying a monopoly position in its market, not do I see video player applications as an essential good or service.
    - lwhi 16y ago
      It's not ridiculous, but it's also not compatible with the principles of free markets that are in force in Canada and the USA at this time. I agree, regulation has traditionally been put in place to deal with the creation of monopolies. Personally - I think the question of whether Apple's AppStore constitutes a monopoly is a grey area. They are the only company authorised to sell applications developed for iOS. Supporters of Apple's current policy would argue that other application platforms are available. To this, I would offer the counter-argument that prior investment (time/money/effort) encourages developers and customers to stick with (and put up with) most rules Apple decides to enforce. Choice is (theoretically) available, but many developers and users will be placed in a situation where there they aren't. -- These IP-marketplaces are new - and, as with most things that are digitally-based, a great deal of power is available to whoever is in charge. More power, provides more scope for abuse. I think that some kind of regulation - either through new legislation or a regulatory body needs to be provided. -- Lastly - as Apple isn't providing a free-market to those who sell through it's AppStore, isn't it a little ironic that a desire for free-market economics is provided as a reason against regulation?
      - Anechoic 16y ago
        I think the question of whether Apple's AppStore constitutes a monopoly is a grey area. Not even close to a grey area unless you want to argue that Nike has a monopoly on athletic shoes that have the Nike 'swoosh.' To this, I would offer the counter-argument that prior investment (time/money/effort) encourages developers and customers to stick with (and put up with) most rules Apple decides to enforce. Choice is (theoretically) available, but many developers and users will be placed in a situation where there they aren't. How is that different from pretty much every other market where some business decides to create a product that relies on another business' product?
redial 16y ago
And the position of some of the VLC developers isn't my way or the highway? They requested Apple to (a)change the policies of the store or (b)remove the software from it, and they got exactly that. Then they complained.
- tmp476234 16y ago
  There are 3 groups of developers here. A) The ones who ported VLC and posted it on the App Store. B) The ones who complained about the terms of the App Store. C) The ones who are complaining now. I'm sure there is some overlap, but I don't see how you can criticize members of group C who are not in group B.
  - sigzero 16y ago
    I don't think he made a distinction nor do I see a reason for him too. He could have same "some" instead of "they" I guess.
st3fan 16y ago
"Apple needs to be willing to discuss issues. Too often, their position can be summarised as 'my way, or the highway'." Well, it is their platform and their store. If you think the rules are unfair then you can also develop for other platforms. First, Apple had ZERO problems with approving VLC and getting it on the store. The app is gone now, but that is not because Apple changed their position, they simply responded to an alledged copyright/license issue reported by the original owner of the code. The reason that the app has been removed is because the VLC developers, specifially Rémi Denis-Courmont, has requested Apple to remove the app from the store because of what license conflicts. They would respond in exactly the same way if the GPL were not involved. Seriously, Apple is currently working in the best interest of the claimed rights holder of VLC: it removed the app so that VLC and Applidium can figure this out. This is not a case of Apple Against GPL: As soon as Applidium and VLC think they can actually work with the terms of the GPL and App Store then they can send that message to Apple and resubsmit the app. I sure hope they do, but from what I've seen so far, the VLC folks seem to be extremely anti-Apple. We all lose. Thanks VLC.
- lwhi 16y ago
  Well, it is their platform and their store. [..] I often hear this rhetoric provided as the de facto reason for why Apple (and other corporations governing IP-marketplaces) should be able to do whatever they like. If this was true - why can't a telecommunications company operate in whichever way they choose? Why do we have regulatory frameworks which address the problem of monopolies or the formation of cartels? Because sometimes corporations aren't working in the interest of the public at large; and they need to operate within a larger framework which has been put in place for the benefit of society. To enable them to do so effectively - traditionally, regulatory bodies are put in place to oversee good practice. I hope the same happens to regulate these new IP-focused marketplaces. -- [..] If you think the rules are unfair then you can also develop for other platforms. I don't think this is necessarily true. People (customers, developers and businesses) have to invest a great deal of time, effort and money when they choose to develop for (or make use of) a specific platform. Switching is expensive - and eventually common sense dictates that its more likely that those who have invested, are likely to put up with rules and regulations which they might otherwise see as unfair. Also, once a developer has produced their iOS-based product - they are forced to sell through one marketplace; the Apple AppStore - which is also cause for concern in my opinion.

jbk 16y ago

Totally not. A VLC developer complained to Apple about a copyright violation in October. Apple pulled it unilaterally yesterday, after more than 2 months of silence, after refusing to help people, notably me, to solve the matter. So, Apple is definitively "part of this". Not to mention that you are speaking about "VLC" which doesn't mean anything, since it isn't a legal entity. And to finish "AppStore license terms" change all the time... So it is hard to "play within the bounds".

jedsmith 16y ago
> Apple pulled it unilaterally yesterday, after more than 2 months of silence, after refusing to help people, notably me, to solve the matter. Of course they did. It took them two months to process the complaint after one of the VideoLAN developers made it, but they followed through on an action that "a VLC developer" initiated. With respect, if a developer representing VideoLAN complains to Apple, and another developer representing VideoLAN and claiming to be in charge approaches and tries to "work it out", Apple is not going to step into what appears to be an internal dispute. I am never an Apple apologist as I think they're a bit heavy-handed with the App Store, but in this case, how would you expect them to act? This is what "a VLC developer" wanted, and he got it. I don't think Apple is the bad guy here in the slightest. I hope you're not trying to shift blame from the developer who initiated this to an easy target, Apple, because your original comment in this thread would make it appear that way.
- jbk 16y ago
  > Apple is not going to step into what appears to be an internal dispute No, here, the dispute was from one copyright holder against the distributor, Apple. > how would you expect them to act? Very simply, by answering to the mails asking for clarifications on the ToS, so a solution could have come up.
  - st3fan 16y ago
    "simply, by answering to the mails asking for clarifications on the ToS, so a solution could have come up." Yeah, but unfortunately one of your team members, Rémi Denis-Courmont, had already used the nuclear option: informing Apple about a copyright infringement and asking them to remove the app from the store. So that is what Apple did. The problem is that you guys are not working as a team. One person, Remi, is extremely bitter about this app being on the store (see the wording of his messages and that last blog post) and basically wants it to disappear forever. I do not see any signals that Remi is approaching this the same way as you. You seem to want to resolve this, he just wants the app to be gone and never appear again. You keep saying that there is no such thing as 'VLC the legal entity'. And that is probably how it looks from Apple's perspective: one guy requests the app to be removed, some other random person is trying to fix things. In other words: you guys messed this up by not being a coherent team. Remi should have NEVER EVER sent that message. You guys should have come to agreement and worked with Apple as a team. Fixing this is probably possible, but it requires cooperation from Rémi Denis-Courmont. You guys (here I say it again) will probably have to send a more formal letter to Apple to retract the initial complaint and then see if you can work together to fix this or to be more lenient and to simply say: we know this situation is not ideal, but thinking of millions of users who are using our software, we are going to let this happen anyway to see if we things can change in the longer term.

anigbrowl 16y ago

the VLC guys (specificaly Rémi Denis-Courmont) contacted Apple to urge them to remove the app Citation please.

st3fan 16y ago
See http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2010-October/077325.html http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2010-October... It is funny how Jean-Baptiste Kempf keeps telling us here that there is no 'VLC legal entity' but at the same time Rémi sends out messages like the above in a press release style as if they are officially coming from the 'VLC Group'. Anyway, Apple was contacted because of a copyright infringement. As anyone who has experience with the App Store knows, their action is then to simply pull the app, inform the developer (which is Applidium in this case and NOT VLC) and then leave the matter in the hands of those parties. As far as Apple is concerned this matter is over. Until Applidium contacts them (because they are the ones having a contract with Apple) with a good reason to allow the app back in the store.

adaml_623 16y ago

Haha I think it's actually a case of Apple should make it's App Store license and operations more flexible. And clearer. And be more communicative. I'm actually serious about all the above points.

lambda 16y ago

> Apple is not part of this Apple is absolutely part of this. Apple is the party that has released a platform that you cannot install software on without going through them for permission (unless you jailbreak it using a remote-root vulnerability which is patched in more recent releases). Apple is the party that decides what can be in its app store under what rules; and it has decided to use a set of rules that are incompatible with the GPL. Apple has thus chosen to limit the software that is installable on their platform. Apple could choose to allow VLC; they have the choice of making their terms compatible with the GPL (it's not that hard; just don't impose any additional restrictions on top of the ones that the GPL already imposes, and let the authors handle the rest of the GPL's requirements), or enabling people to side-load apps outside of the App store. Google does both on Android; the market terms are compatible with the GPL, and they allow side-loading (and even rooting on some phones). However Apple chooses not to do this. Thus, Apple is limiting the set of software that can be used on their phone. If you use an iPhone (or iPad, or iPod Touch), you should be aware of this; you may not ever be able to get some software on it without cracking your phone's security, and Apple may be arbitrary and capricious in what they choose to allow and disallow. Apple may also remotely disable and uninstall software or content that is on your phone. If you want to choose what to install on your own phone, you should either buy a phone that gives you more freedom, or jailbreak your phone and then install whatever you want.