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(Brave employee here) Curious: what are some of the shortfalls you see in Chromium? Before I joined Brave, the desktop browser was originally using Gecko (fro

(Brave employee here) Curious: what are some of the shortfalls you see in Chromium? Before I joined Brave, the desktop browser was originally using Gecko (from Firefox). Ultimately, there were some problems and the decision was made to move to Chromium. On iOS, Brave is forked from Firefox though You can check out more detail on Reddit where folks asked why FF was not used (which has links to more detailed info): https://www.reddit.com/r/BATProject/comments/9jpqde/brave_browser_and_chromium/ https://www.reddit.com/r/BATProject/comments/9jpqde/brave_br...

vorticalbox 7y ago
The monopoly google has over the web standard is probably the biggest issue.
jsgo 7y ago
Not OP, but I'd imagine that it is Brave seems to be a browser that advocates for the user (and presumably in the future, publishers too with the pay thing). As such, the ideals seem more aligned with Firefox than Chrome (and by extension, Chromium). Basically, you guys are in a weird space where your decisions aren't looked at purely from a technical lens, but also an ideological one.
- BrendanEich 7y ago
  Welcome to current year. But don't let browsers pretend to be neutral runtimes for the terrible third party scripts on which surveillance advertising depends. They are not neutral. The big-4 browsers in the west apart from Apple are partly or fully captured by $100B ad businesses. We are all in a weird space. Best to fight back at the endpoint with the right browser. Could be Safari, Firefox, or Chrome with opt outs and uBO and other defenses (but risks remain in Chrome especially), if you are not game for Brave.
  - jsgo 7y ago
    Not saying you guys are wrong, just saying where it seems you get blowback for what another vendor doing more or less the same thing wouldn’t even register as a talking point. Not saying it’s fair, but it seems people hold you to something of a righteous/ideological expectation that Google et al can’t meet so they don’t even complain of it there. In my mind, considering the push you’re making, you’d validate that vanilla chromium meets the requirements to achieve said push. If it didn’t, it’d be a non-starter and you’d have went a different route (leveraging aspects of Firefox’s stack maybe if, again, it met requirements).
basch 7y ago
being firefox on iOS is somewhat irrelevant to the rendering engine discussion tho, because iOS is forcing webkit on all its browsers, firefox is just a chrome around webkit.
phjesusthatguy3 7y ago
>Curious: what are some of the shortfalls you see in Chromium? That it's a Google-controlled project. Seriously, that's it. I have no reason to believe Google has my best interest at heart. Don't turn that around and say "Oh, you think Mozilla is looking out for you?" because I don't. I just trust Google less.
- TheArcane 7y ago
  The deGoogle movement has been gaining steam ever since the ad-block announcement, and I'm a 100% behind it
  - dmix 7y ago
    Which happened after Brave launched.
    - andrenotgiant 7y ago
      I'm curious - how are the two related? What's the significance of the fact that Brave launched, _and then_ Google changing the extension API in a way that affects ad blockers?
      - dmix 7y ago
        The argument against using Chromium has increased significantly with that move. Before you could argue that the open source Chromium was largely immune to Google's various small bad behaviours, but when they make such a large close-minded move, at a certain point you can't keep supporting the platform as a whole when they are so hostile to the open internet. Even if it's indirect support. Also, it can't be ignore that Firefox's recent move towards parity with Chrome has played a big role in giving people the option to even switch.
    - kerkeslager 7y ago
      Okay, but it's not like Brave couldn't have seen that coming. It doesn't take a genius to see that a browser run by one of the world's largest advertisers is going to prioritize advertisers over users.
eikenberry 7y ago
Multi-account containers have become Firefox's killer feature that will keep me from switching. They are super handy for separating work accounts, managing my kids accounts, etc. while never having to worry about logging out of my primary accounts.
TheArcane 7y ago
Easy. Google has a lot of influence over Chromium development.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  Presumably they also have a veto, at least, on Firefox development as they're paying handsomely for it?
  - stjohnswarts 7y ago
    Mozilla project would dissolve before they let google tell them how to make their browser
  - TheArcane 7y ago
    They're paying to let FF make Google it's default search provider
    - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
      Yes, and you think Google will keep paying regardless of how they develop? If there's not review system in place then Google must be extremely poor at negotiating contracts and conducting business relationships. Similarly Mozilla probably would be reckless to not even know that a change would cause their primary source of income (100s of millions $USD) to stop.
steveharman 7y ago
Any idea when Brave will support password sync across machines / devices? It's a bit of a limitation right now.
bad_user 7y ago
> On iOS, Brave is forked from Firefox You mean the platform that specifically disallows competing browser engines, making Firefox just a shell over a Safari-enabled web view and that can't even access Safari's content blockers? The only Firefox that's not running a Firefox engine under the hood? That Firefox? Given you're a developer for Brave, it's not possible for you to not know this, therefore your statement is misleading at best. The pitfalls of Chromium are obvious... it gives Google the power to impose on the market whatever engine feature they want, they are the ones defining the web standards and there's nothing Brave can do about it because Brave does not have the capacity to maintain a full fork, or to fight for web standards, just like it doesn't have the capacity to build a browser without piggybacking on somebody else. Don't get me wrong, nowadays even Microsoft admitted total defeat, but then Brave should recognize its total dependence on Google and its continued goodwill.
- jefftk 7y ago
  > Brave should recognize its total dependence on Google and its continued goodwill What do you mean? Brave is based on Chromium, which is open source. Google can't stop people from using it. (Disclosure: I work for Google)
  - input_sh 7y ago
    Google is the dictator of what gets accepted into Chromium and what does not. That's how open source development works -- even if the code is available to everyone, its maintainers control its future.
    - ryacko 7y ago
      More significantly, (as far as I know) there is not much open discussion about Chromium’s goals or roadmap. The reduction of Adblock blacklists in Chromium was announced, there wasn’t some public mailing list where a flame war began over it.
    - jefftk 7y ago
      Regardless of how Chromium is run [1] Brave is still in a position to make their browser work however they want. They can choose what Chromium features to enable, and take the code any direction they want. [1] Your categorization doesn't match what I've seen. Microsoft has been driving substantial changes as Edge moves onto it.

vorticalbox 7y ago

The monopoly google has over the web standard is probably the biggest issue.

jsgo 7y ago

Not OP, but I'd imagine that it is Brave seems to be a browser that advocates for the user (and presumably in the future, publishers too with the pay thing). As such, the ideals seem more aligned with Firefox than Chrome (and by extension, Chromium). Basically, you guys are in a weird space where your decisions aren't looked at purely from a technical lens, but also an ideological one.

BrendanEich 7y ago
Welcome to current year. But don't let browsers pretend to be neutral runtimes for the terrible third party scripts on which surveillance advertising depends. They are not neutral. The big-4 browsers in the west apart from Apple are partly or fully captured by $100B ad businesses. We are all in a weird space. Best to fight back at the endpoint with the right browser. Could be Safari, Firefox, or Chrome with opt outs and uBO and other defenses (but risks remain in Chrome especially), if you are not game for Brave.
- jsgo 7y ago
  Not saying you guys are wrong, just saying where it seems you get blowback for what another vendor doing more or less the same thing wouldn’t even register as a talking point. Not saying it’s fair, but it seems people hold you to something of a righteous/ideological expectation that Google et al can’t meet so they don’t even complain of it there. In my mind, considering the push you’re making, you’d validate that vanilla chromium meets the requirements to achieve said push. If it didn’t, it’d be a non-starter and you’d have went a different route (leveraging aspects of Firefox’s stack maybe if, again, it met requirements).

basch 7y ago

being firefox on iOS is somewhat irrelevant to the rendering engine discussion tho, because iOS is forcing webkit on all its browsers, firefox is just a chrome around webkit.

phjesusthatguy3 7y ago

>Curious: what are some of the shortfalls you see in Chromium? That it's a Google-controlled project. Seriously, that's it. I have no reason to believe Google has my best interest at heart. Don't turn that around and say "Oh, you think Mozilla is looking out for you?" because I don't. I just trust Google less.

TheArcane 7y ago
The deGoogle movement has been gaining steam ever since the ad-block announcement, and I'm a 100% behind it
- dmix 7y ago
  Which happened after Brave launched.
  - andrenotgiant 7y ago
    I'm curious - how are the two related? What's the significance of the fact that Brave launched, _and then_ Google changing the extension API in a way that affects ad blockers?
    - dmix 7y ago
      The argument against using Chromium has increased significantly with that move. Before you could argue that the open source Chromium was largely immune to Google's various small bad behaviours, but when they make such a large close-minded move, at a certain point you can't keep supporting the platform as a whole when they are so hostile to the open internet. Even if it's indirect support. Also, it can't be ignore that Firefox's recent move towards parity with Chrome has played a big role in giving people the option to even switch.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    Okay, but it's not like Brave couldn't have seen that coming. It doesn't take a genius to see that a browser run by one of the world's largest advertisers is going to prioritize advertisers over users.

eikenberry 7y ago

Multi-account containers have become Firefox's killer feature that will keep me from switching. They are super handy for separating work accounts, managing my kids accounts, etc. while never having to worry about logging out of my primary accounts.

TheArcane 7y ago

Easy. Google has a lot of influence over Chromium development.

pbhjpbhj 7y ago
Presumably they also have a veto, at least, on Firefox development as they're paying handsomely for it?
- stjohnswarts 7y ago
  Mozilla project would dissolve before they let google tell them how to make their browser
- TheArcane 7y ago
  They're paying to let FF make Google it's default search provider
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Yes, and you think Google will keep paying regardless of how they develop? If there's not review system in place then Google must be extremely poor at negotiating contracts and conducting business relationships. Similarly Mozilla probably would be reckless to not even know that a change would cause their primary source of income (100s of millions $USD) to stop.

steveharman 7y ago

Any idea when Brave will support password sync across machines / devices? It's a bit of a limitation right now.

bad_user 7y ago

> On iOS, Brave is forked from Firefox You mean the platform that specifically disallows competing browser engines, making Firefox just a shell over a Safari-enabled web view and that can't even access Safari's content blockers? The only Firefox that's not running a Firefox engine under the hood? That Firefox? Given you're a developer for Brave, it's not possible for you to not know this, therefore your statement is misleading at best. The pitfalls of Chromium are obvious... it gives Google the power to impose on the market whatever engine feature they want, they are the ones defining the web standards and there's nothing Brave can do about it because Brave does not have the capacity to maintain a full fork, or to fight for web standards, just like it doesn't have the capacity to build a browser without piggybacking on somebody else. Don't get me wrong, nowadays even Microsoft admitted total defeat, but then Brave should recognize its total dependence on Google and its continued goodwill.

jefftk 7y ago
> Brave should recognize its total dependence on Google and its continued goodwill What do you mean? Brave is based on Chromium, which is open source. Google can't stop people from using it. (Disclosure: I work for Google)
- input_sh 7y ago
  Google is the dictator of what gets accepted into Chromium and what does not. That's how open source development works -- even if the code is available to everyone, its maintainers control its future.
  - ryacko 7y ago
    More significantly, (as far as I know) there is not much open discussion about Chromium’s goals or roadmap. The reduction of Adblock blacklists in Chromium was announced, there wasn’t some public mailing list where a flame war began over it.
  - jefftk 7y ago
    Regardless of how Chromium is run [1] Brave is still in a position to make their browser work however they want. They can choose what Chromium features to enable, and take the code any direction they want. [1] Your categorization doesn't match what I've seen. Microsoft has been driving substantial changes as Edge moves onto it.