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Disclaimer: VideoLAN Chairman and lead VLC developer here. I've written the most important analysis on the matter http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-dev

by jbk 16y ago

Disclaimer: VideoLAN Chairman and lead VLC developer here. I've written the most important analysis on the matter http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2010-November/077457.html http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2010-Novembe... and http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2010-December/078262.html http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2010-Decembe... Some VLC developers (for Mac mainly), with the company Applidium, have ported VLC on iOS. Applidium published it on the store, for free. Some developer complained (quite lately, btw...) afterwards and quoted a FSF analysis. Their analysis was totally wrong (spoke about redistribution), and based on old version of AppStore terms. After my remarks about changes of the AppStore terms that made this analysis obsolete and wrong, they shifted their criticism onto another part, which was the "usage" part of the ToS. They complained that the terms did not allow all uses, especially commercial ones. Indeed, one part could be interpreted in different ways. Therefore, I've mailed Apple Copyright Agent for explanation, twice. Once in November, once in December... Apple has refused to answer, to explain or to help in any matter. They then decided to pull the Application unilaterally from the AppStore. Of course, they are allowed to do that, and noone can complain, but this is yet another push from Apple against VLC, that adds to the very long list of past issues. It just makes me think Apple doesn't really want competition...

jonhendry 16y ago
"Of course, they are allowed to do that, and noone can complain, but this is yet another push from Apple against VLC, that adds to the very long list of past issues. It just makes me think Apple doesn't really want competition" Maybe they don't want the hassle of dealing with flakey politics-ridden groups who don't have their shit together.
- jbk 16y ago
  Sure, and maybe you could be polite... Or just try to understand what open source groups means...
  - jonhendry 16y ago
    Apparently "open source group" means "high maintenance and unprofessional goalpost-shifters who suffer the delusion that they are in charge".
    - kindly 16y ago
      You make open source groups sound a lot like apple.
      - jonhendry 16y ago
        Except when it comes to the App Store, Apple is in charge.
        lwhi 16y ago
        No, if Apple decides to create a new marketplace - to which tens of thousands of small business have a stake; Apple has a duty to act in an impartial and fair manner. The fact that Apple created this economic space, doesn't give it the right to behave like a feudal overlord might have behaved in the Middle Ages. -- It's very much a case of 'who watches the watchmen'. An independent complaints or regulatory commission needs to be established which can be used to lodge complaints about unfair action within any privately created IP-focused marketplace. I believe that laws should be introduced to ensure that Apple (and Google / Blackberry etc.) would have to subscribe to any guidelines put forth by such a body.
        borski 16y ago
        Unfortunately that's just not true. While I agree that is "ideal" and the way it "should be," if I own a clothing retail store, and only want to sell designer Italian clothing, I'm allowed to. I don't also have to allow any and all Chinese, French, and American tailors to put their clothes in my shop.
        lwhi 16y ago
ryanpetrich 16y ago
There is another media player for sale based on VLC still on the App Store that you should look into: http://itunes.apple.com/app/id406779775?mt=8 http://itunes.apple.com/app/id406779775?mt=8 (the licensing incompatibility likely applies to it as well)
lwhi 16y ago
It's this kind of authoritarian behaviour that makes me dislike Apple.
- st3fan 16y ago
  Uhhh what happened here is that the VLC guys (specificaly Rémi Denis-Courmont) contacted Apple to urge them to remove the app. So that is what they did. Kind of weird to blame Apple for following up to a copyright violation. It is now between VLC and Applidium to figure out how to proceed. Apple is not part of this. Developers need to play within the bounds of the App Store license terms.
  - lwhi 16y ago
    Apple needs to be willing to discuss issues. Too often, their position can be summarised as 'my way, or the highway'. -- Apple is not part of this. Developers need to play within the bounds of the App Store license terms No - Apple needs to be accountable to an impartial regulatory body.
    - sigzero 16y ago
      "No - Apple needs to be accountable to an impartial regulatory body." That is a ridiculous assumption.
      - lwhi 16y ago
        May I ask why my opinion is ridiculous? Other industries (telecommunications for example) have regulatory bodies which oversee good practice. I don't see why it's ridiculous to imagine a regulatory body overseeing good practice for privately created IP-focused marketplaces.
        Anechoic 16y ago
        telecommunications for example Telecommunications (in the USA) used publicly-owned airwaves and in too-many cases have de facto or de jure monopolies. Neither applies to Apple.
trotsky 16y ago
Would you be willing to be more specific about the terms that changed in the Apple TOS, and what they are now? And which license terms are in dispute about commercial use? I've read the FSF post about VLC dated october ( http://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/vlc-enforcement http://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/vlc-enforcement ) is it safe to say you disagree with the FSF here? Thanks for any insight! EDIT: This seems to cover the technical questions: http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2010-December/078262.html http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2010-Decembe... I'd still be curious if you have any insight on current FSF thinking here.
- jbk 16y ago
  I would love the FSF to explain their current position, but they don't want anymore...
macco 16y ago
Of course the don't want competion. They do everything they can to protect their ecosystem.
jasonkester 16y ago
Would you mind giving a lay explanation as to what happened? I'm having trouble parsing what you've written, likely from a lack of context. First, what's an FSF analysis? And who is the developer in question? One of yours? One of Apple's? Random guy off the street? What exactly was your application doing that Apple didn't like?
- jbk 16y ago
  FSF is Free Software Foundation The developer is one of the VLC main contributors, but you have to understand that there is no official "VLC" company/organisation.
  - jasonkester 16y ago
    Ah, so back in the day you guys put a license on your code that was so restrictive that now you can't release a version of it to live in the app store? Ouch.
    - jbk 16y ago
      The problem is that this license doesn't allow distributors, like Apple, to limit users rights...
      - jasonkester 16y ago
        Right, but you chose to use it for your project. It's a shame one of your developers is being nasty about it, but ultimately it's a problem you guys brought on yourself. If you hadn't put a license on your thing, your thing wouldn't have any license conflicts. In other words, I suspect that next time you start an open source project, you'll pick a different license for it (or simply not use one).
        jbk 16y ago
        Well, truth be told, I am fighting hard to move VLC to LGPL :D And I didn't start VLC...
martythemaniak 16y ago
Since volumes have been written about Apple's idiotic app store rules already, I just want to say thanks for making one of the best pieces of software out there! I've been happily using it for years and will continue to use it for years on less restrictive platforms.
- jbk 16y ago
  Thank you... Hopefully, I'll be able to calm everyone down and put it back on the AppStore...
  - st3fan 16y ago
    What actions would be necessary to put it back in the store?
    - jedsmith 16y ago
      An act of God, now.
    - jbk 16y ago
      Apple to finally answer the questions...
alain94040 16y ago
Apple doesn't have to spend their time discussing with you about legal dispute among copyright holders. If anything, you are lucky that they don't ban the developers who posted the app in the first place. I wouldn't mind a policy that said: "if you ever get us in a copyright dispute, you are banned forever from our store" Instead, Apple was told that the app had a copyright problem, and it took them 2 months to take it down. Yes, it's slow, but no, they are not evil in doing so.
- commandar 16y ago
  >"if you ever get us in a copyright dispute, you are banned forever from our store" Talk about giving power to the trolls.
- jarek 16y ago
  > "if you ever get us in a copyright dispute, you are banned forever from our store" Hey! Angry Birds stole my intellectual property.
  - mambodog 16y ago
    Maybe the word legitimate should have been in there.
    - danieldon 16y ago
      That would conflict with "Apple doesn't have to spend their time discussing with you about legal dispute among copyright holders."
st3fan 16y ago
I just came accross this posting of yours: http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc/2011-January/019796.html http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc/2011-January/01979... Where you say: "No. Apple decided to remove VLC from the AppStore by themselves." You are either blatantly lying or you have no idea what actually happened. Apple responded to a copyright infringement notification like they always do: they removed the app from sale. This is the direct action of your colleague in the VLC project, Rémi Denis-Courmont. Stop blaming Apple for removing the app. YOU GUYS, the VLC project, are the ones who are playing this game.
- jedsmith 16y ago
  I'd hope it's a simple misunderstanding, but my gut tells me that this was planned -- I don't see how the VideoLAN guys can suddenly forget that one of their own demanded removal of the application and then vehemently say "we had nothing to do with it!" This stuff is all public...it makes no sense, honestly.
  - st3fan 16y ago
    It is not all public. Maybe Remi should make all his emails to Apple public. That will probably explain some things.
- jbk 16y ago
  First, I still don't understand why you are so aggressive, once again, against me. Then, again, you keep using "YOU GUYS" or "VLC project", which are no people or legal entities, and don't mean anything. Then, the removal was done by Apple, and not by Applidium nor anyone else. A complaint was filled by a copyright holder of some code on VLC. He represent himself and has the right to complain. It doesn't mean that his complaint is right, like any complaint. But, the problem is that Apple has refused to explain the term of service and to help us finding a solution, and after being mute for more than 2,5 month, remove it without warning nor explanation. So, yes, "Apple decided to remove VLC from the AppStore by themselves", even if you don't like it.
jsz0 16y ago
There are dozens upon dozens of video players on the App Store including commercial services like Netflix and Hulu Plus that directly compete with Apple's own offerings. Claiming this is an anti-competive move on Apple's part frankly makes no sense at all.
ali-r 16y ago
I want to thank Jean and all VideoLan and Applidium developers for their great softwares that I use on my Mac and iPod touch. I just don't agree that Apple pulled VLC because of their fear of competition. They did not remove BUZZ Player,OPlayer,yxplayer, CineXPlayer, etc. I just think App Store is getting very big and hard to manage for Apple so they may make mistakes or they just chose the easy way, pulling the App instead of further investigating the copyright claims. I hope you can find a solution and VLC appears again in App store soon.

by jbk 16y ago

jonhendry 16y ago

"Of course, they are allowed to do that, and noone can complain, but this is yet another push from Apple against VLC, that adds to the very long list of past issues. It just makes me think Apple doesn't really want competition" Maybe they don't want the hassle of dealing with flakey politics-ridden groups who don't have their shit together.

jbk 16y ago
Sure, and maybe you could be polite... Or just try to understand what open source groups means...
- jonhendry 16y ago
  Apparently "open source group" means "high maintenance and unprofessional goalpost-shifters who suffer the delusion that they are in charge".
  - kindly 16y ago
    You make open source groups sound a lot like apple.
    - jonhendry 16y ago
      Except when it comes to the App Store, Apple is in charge.
      - lwhi 16y ago
        No, if Apple decides to create a new marketplace - to which tens of thousands of small business have a stake; Apple has a duty to act in an impartial and fair manner. The fact that Apple created this economic space, doesn't give it the right to behave like a feudal overlord might have behaved in the Middle Ages. -- It's very much a case of 'who watches the watchmen'. An independent complaints or regulatory commission needs to be established which can be used to lodge complaints about unfair action within any privately created IP-focused marketplace. I believe that laws should be introduced to ensure that Apple (and Google / Blackberry etc.) would have to subscribe to any guidelines put forth by such a body.
        borski 16y ago
        Unfortunately that's just not true. While I agree that is "ideal" and the way it "should be," if I own a clothing retail store, and only want to sell designer Italian clothing, I'm allowed to. I don't also have to allow any and all Chinese, French, and American tailors to put their clothes in my shop.
        lwhi 16y ago

ryanpetrich 16y ago

There is another media player for sale based on VLC still on the App Store that you should look into: http://itunes.apple.com/app/id406779775?mt=8 http://itunes.apple.com/app/id406779775?mt=8 (the licensing incompatibility likely applies to it as well)

lwhi 16y ago

It's this kind of authoritarian behaviour that makes me dislike Apple.

st3fan 16y ago
Uhhh what happened here is that the VLC guys (specificaly Rémi Denis-Courmont) contacted Apple to urge them to remove the app. So that is what they did. Kind of weird to blame Apple for following up to a copyright violation. It is now between VLC and Applidium to figure out how to proceed. Apple is not part of this. Developers need to play within the bounds of the App Store license terms.
- lwhi 16y ago
  Apple needs to be willing to discuss issues. Too often, their position can be summarised as 'my way, or the highway'. -- Apple is not part of this. Developers need to play within the bounds of the App Store license terms No - Apple needs to be accountable to an impartial regulatory body.
  - sigzero 16y ago
    "No - Apple needs to be accountable to an impartial regulatory body." That is a ridiculous assumption.
    - lwhi 16y ago
      May I ask why my opinion is ridiculous? Other industries (telecommunications for example) have regulatory bodies which oversee good practice. I don't see why it's ridiculous to imagine a regulatory body overseeing good practice for privately created IP-focused marketplaces.
      - Anechoic 16y ago
        telecommunications for example Telecommunications (in the USA) used publicly-owned airwaves and in too-many cases have de facto or de jure monopolies. Neither applies to Apple.

trotsky 16y ago

Would you be willing to be more specific about the terms that changed in the Apple TOS, and what they are now? And which license terms are in dispute about commercial use? I've read the FSF post about VLC dated october ( http://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/vlc-enforcement http://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/vlc-enforcement ) is it safe to say you disagree with the FSF here? Thanks for any insight! EDIT: This seems to cover the technical questions: http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2010-December/078262.html http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2010-Decembe... I'd still be curious if you have any insight on current FSF thinking here.

jbk 16y ago
I would love the FSF to explain their current position, but they don't want anymore...

macco 16y ago

Of course the don't want competion. They do everything they can to protect their ecosystem.

jasonkester 16y ago

Would you mind giving a lay explanation as to what happened? I'm having trouble parsing what you've written, likely from a lack of context. First, what's an FSF analysis? And who is the developer in question? One of yours? One of Apple's? Random guy off the street? What exactly was your application doing that Apple didn't like?

jbk 16y ago
FSF is Free Software Foundation The developer is one of the VLC main contributors, but you have to understand that there is no official "VLC" company/organisation.
- jasonkester 16y ago
  Ah, so back in the day you guys put a license on your code that was so restrictive that now you can't release a version of it to live in the app store? Ouch.
  - jbk 16y ago
    The problem is that this license doesn't allow distributors, like Apple, to limit users rights...
    - jasonkester 16y ago
      Right, but you chose to use it for your project. It's a shame one of your developers is being nasty about it, but ultimately it's a problem you guys brought on yourself. If you hadn't put a license on your thing, your thing wouldn't have any license conflicts. In other words, I suspect that next time you start an open source project, you'll pick a different license for it (or simply not use one).
      - jbk 16y ago
        Well, truth be told, I am fighting hard to move VLC to LGPL :D And I didn't start VLC...

martythemaniak 16y ago

Since volumes have been written about Apple's idiotic app store rules already, I just want to say thanks for making one of the best pieces of software out there! I've been happily using it for years and will continue to use it for years on less restrictive platforms.

jbk 16y ago
Thank you... Hopefully, I'll be able to calm everyone down and put it back on the AppStore...
- st3fan 16y ago
  What actions would be necessary to put it back in the store?
  - jedsmith 16y ago
    An act of God, now.
  - jbk 16y ago
    Apple to finally answer the questions...

alain94040 16y ago

Apple doesn't have to spend their time discussing with you about legal dispute among copyright holders. If anything, you are lucky that they don't ban the developers who posted the app in the first place. I wouldn't mind a policy that said: "if you ever get us in a copyright dispute, you are banned forever from our store" Instead, Apple was told that the app had a copyright problem, and it took them 2 months to take it down. Yes, it's slow, but no, they are not evil in doing so.

commandar 16y ago
>"if you ever get us in a copyright dispute, you are banned forever from our store" Talk about giving power to the trolls.
jarek 16y ago
> "if you ever get us in a copyright dispute, you are banned forever from our store" Hey! Angry Birds stole my intellectual property.
- mambodog 16y ago
  Maybe the word legitimate should have been in there.
  - danieldon 16y ago
    That would conflict with "Apple doesn't have to spend their time discussing with you about legal dispute among copyright holders."

st3fan 16y ago

I just came accross this posting of yours: http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc/2011-January/019796.html http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc/2011-January/01979... Where you say: "No. Apple decided to remove VLC from the AppStore by themselves." You are either blatantly lying or you have no idea what actually happened. Apple responded to a copyright infringement notification like they always do: they removed the app from sale. This is the direct action of your colleague in the VLC project, Rémi Denis-Courmont. Stop blaming Apple for removing the app. YOU GUYS, the VLC project, are the ones who are playing this game.

jedsmith 16y ago
I'd hope it's a simple misunderstanding, but my gut tells me that this was planned -- I don't see how the VideoLAN guys can suddenly forget that one of their own demanded removal of the application and then vehemently say "we had nothing to do with it!" This stuff is all public...it makes no sense, honestly.
- st3fan 16y ago
  It is not all public. Maybe Remi should make all his emails to Apple public. That will probably explain some things.
jbk 16y ago
First, I still don't understand why you are so aggressive, once again, against me. Then, again, you keep using "YOU GUYS" or "VLC project", which are no people or legal entities, and don't mean anything. Then, the removal was done by Apple, and not by Applidium nor anyone else. A complaint was filled by a copyright holder of some code on VLC. He represent himself and has the right to complain. It doesn't mean that his complaint is right, like any complaint. But, the problem is that Apple has refused to explain the term of service and to help us finding a solution, and after being mute for more than 2,5 month, remove it without warning nor explanation. So, yes, "Apple decided to remove VLC from the AppStore by themselves", even if you don't like it.

jsz0 16y ago

There are dozens upon dozens of video players on the App Store including commercial services like Netflix and Hulu Plus that directly compete with Apple's own offerings. Claiming this is an anti-competive move on Apple's part frankly makes no sense at all.

ali-r 16y ago

I want to thank Jean and all VideoLan and Applidium developers for their great softwares that I use on my Mac and iPod touch. I just don't agree that Apple pulled VLC because of their fear of competition. They did not remove BUZZ Player,OPlayer,yxplayer, CineXPlayer, etc. I just think App Store is getting very big and hard to manage for Apple so they may make mistakes or they just chose the easy way, pulling the App instead of further investigating the copyright claims. I hope you can find a solution and VLC appears again in App store soon.