12 ms·

Personally, as an iOS user, I do not want the App Store opened up at all. Currently, I can go to the App Store, install any app, and be about 99.9% confident

by laingc 7y ago

Personally, as an iOS user, I do not want the App Store opened up at all. Currently, I can go to the App Store, install any app, and be about 99.9% confident that the app will do me (or my technologically illiterate mother) absolutely no harm. This is something I value highly, and am happy to pay the “Apple premium” for.

oblio 7y ago
You could just not void the warranty (more or less) for installing apps from other sources. Your mom always uses the App Store, everybody else is happy.
- ericmay 7y ago
  Which sounds fine until your mom hears about this cool App Store from her friend on Facebook, downloads a bunch of crap, and winds up at the Apple Store with Apple having to fix damage caused to her phone. I’m a little less sympathetic with the repairability stuff, but when it comes to the App Store, daddy Apple is doing a job that I want them to do, and changes here are not to my benefit and would make me less likely to buy the product.
  - cooljacob204 7y ago
    Do they have a computer? Might as well take that away from them with that kind of outlook.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      That's a very viable approach. We got my wife's grandmother an iPad because she kept getting fleeced by Geek Squad after opening email attachments. Smooth running for years now. A lot of people don't have any need for a full-on computer.
      - pahool 7y ago
        I feel like my life would be a lot easier if I just got my parents and in-laws using Chromebooks. I don't like sacrificing family members on Google's altar, but the ecosystem really just fits their use cases. I've considered something like Solus-based laptops for them, but I haven't gotten around to testing out a configuration yet.
    - oarsinsync 7y ago
      I did. They're happier as their technology always works the way they expect. I'm happier as I don't get any more tech support calls. Please don't take that away from me.
  - mindslight 7y ago
    > winds up at the Apple Store with Apple having to fix damage What is this nebulous "damage"? If an app escapes the sandbox and totally hoses the operating system, the fix should be basically plugging the phone into a cable at home and waiting say 24 hours to prevent evil maid attacks. If the malicious app manages go further and screw up the "hardware", then that implies a serious security vulnerability and so should be covered under warranty. A security model based around every bit of code on a device being vetted is fundamentally unscalable. The cracks are really starting to show, with increasing false positives and false negatives.
    - ericmay 7y ago
      I'm not sure if you have parents or relatives that call you for iPhone tech support, but I do. Even something like resetting a locked iPad requires a call sometimes. It's crazy. Now imagine people downloading all sorts of scam apps, having personal data uploaded, ransomware, you name it. And they are going to take that sucker straight to the Apple store if they don't have friends/family to fix it. Aside from that, I personally view the Apple App Store as a feature and a benefit to me. I don't want another App Store even if it were available.
      - mindslight 7y ago
        Any whole device reflash could also easily be done at an Apple store, even in a self-serve manner. > people downloading all sorts of scam apps, having personal data uploaded, ransomware, you name it Obviously if you just get rid of Apple's current solution and don't replace it with anything, then those things will happen like the jungle that was Windows. But that does not make for an argument in support of Apple's current solution. The answer is to address those problems for arbitrary code (eg isolation and fine grained capabilities), rather than simplistically asserting that any code on the device must be "good" and then enforcing a singular top-down regime to assure that. > I don't want another App Store even if it were available. See if you still hold this opinion in ten years when large companies have been pushed to ban secure communication tools in the interest of "public safety". The writing is already on the wall. (My current support load mainly consists of needing to help my dad because app UI elements are designed to be invisible. This is a problem caused by centralized control - banks create their own decommodified apps and want to look hip in the "design" world or whatever, as opposed to publishing a standardized API that would allow creation of independent apps for old people. And the same vacuous "security" FUD gets dragged out to justify that state of affairs as well)
  - MiroF 7y ago
    If there's an app that can cause damage to my phone, that is Apple's problem for having an exploit in their sandbox and I would certainly expect them to repair the damage
- gwd 7y ago
  But there's more to the issue than just safety checking. The "App store tax" really is like a tax: it helps pay for developing the platform necessary for the apps to run on. Without that revenue, Apple would have to start looking for other ways of getting revenue -- for instance, selling my personal data.
  - rchaud 7y ago
    They already get that with the $99/yr fee for the Apple Developer program: https://developer.apple.com/support/compare-memberships/ https://developer.apple.com/support/compare-memberships/
  - skinnymuch 7y ago
    Apple charges $100 a year which provides some money. Their 30% charge can’t possibly be mostly a tax in the way you’re saying. Don’t they lower their cut of iAPs to 15% after first year? Likely still making a profit on that. What additional things is Apple doing for the additional 15% to 30% at first for iAP subscriptions, or for normal purchases, or for one time iAPs? I’m not saying Apple is wrong to make as much profit as they want. But to say any more than a 10% take at most (likely less) is a tax to have the ecosystem running can’t be true. Not with the $100 a year on top as well.
    - zaroth 7y ago
      Apple has made over $40 billion from the App Store since it launched, and paid out over $100 billion to developers. The $100/yr developer account fee is an anti-spam measure, not an actually significant revenue source. Apple and Google App Stores combined currently generate almost $100 billion in revenue per year. This is the biggest and best revenue source available on the planet for smaller developers. Easy end-user side loading, and third party app stores is a direct attack on this ecosystem and will damage the livelihoods of developers who will have no way to fight against massive increases in piracy that will result.
      - oblio 7y ago
        > Easy end-user side loading, and third party app stores is a direct attack on this ecosystem and will damage the livelihoods of developers who will have no way to fight against massive increases in piracy that will result. Windows developers seemed to be doing pretty well, even without an app store...
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  That's basically how "your mom" got 800 different browser toolbars installed. The people who tend to "void the warranty" tend to be the least equipped to evaluate the pros/cons of doing so.
  - oblio 7y ago
    I didn't mean "your mom" as an insult, he literally said his mother did X and Y...
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      I'm not saying they meant it as an insult. I'm saying the end result winds up being the opposite of the ideal scenario OP's setting up - the people least prepared to evaluate the dangers of side-loading stuff are the most likely to go and do it.
daemin 7y ago
Except for those applications which have a "free period" of some days then charge $10/week and uninstalling the application does not stop the subscription.
- zwily 7y ago
  I believe iOS 13 will ask if you want to cancel a subscription when you uninstall its app...
inanutshellus 7y ago
What if Apple/Google weren't allowed to operate their personal app stores, and instead each was managed by for-profit 3rd parties? They'd be small enough and focused enough that their only option for survival would be trust.
- Faark 7y ago
  That's hardly a stable solution. It would start out nicely, but some of them would start eating up the market due to network effects. Then turn evil... If you make network effects harder (e.g. it extremely easy to submit apps to all of them), I don't see this not becoming a competition over price. And security is expensive. You'd have to prevent people search some nice apps on your store, then downloading the same on a different store with lots of shit tier apps as well, if it saves them your 30% tax.
SahAssar 7y ago
How do you define "absolutely no harm"? Cause a lot of them are clearly misleading about what they do, what permissions they require. A lot of games are clearly geared to be addictive and get you to spend money on their "free" game.
- conception 7y ago
  That wouldn't get better in an open ecosystem. No harm means not infecting your phone, other app, can be uninstalled easily etc.
  - SahAssar 7y ago
    I'm not saying it would, but saying "absolutely no harm" seems a bit hyperbolic.
echelon 7y ago
I don't want to live in your locked-down Disney with the death sentence world. That's fine for you to want it, but don't impose it on me. I want freedom and liberty to do what I want with the devices I own. I want to develop without fear that these two megacorps can shut me down on a whim for developing something against their ideology. The web isn't like that. Windows wasn't like that. Today we live in a Fischer-Price future land where everybody has to wear gloves because we might get burned. I hate what we've become. I want to go back to the world before smartphones and Apple and app stores. The open web. Before Facebook and Google became big brother surveillance operations.
- GhettoMaestro 7y ago
  Your ideal state of Internet / Tech companies is definitely in the minority contrasted to overall expectations the broader population has put on these devices and services. Yeah, we get it, you're smart. I'm smart. Most people here are smart. But protections still matter. What you're saying is I don't want to wear a seatbelt when driving my car. Sure that is your choice - but I think it is a very foolish one.
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    There's no reason the App Store can't hang around, we just want the ability to sideload. Comparing it to not wearing a seatbelt is a straw man, as it's more like being able to use your car however you like without the manufacturer's say so.
    - zuppy 7y ago
      you can already do that, you just have to build it yourself. here’s an article from 2016: https://9to5mac.com/2016/03/27/how-to-create-free-apple-developer-account-sideload-apps/ https://9to5mac.com/2016/03/27/how-to-create-free-apple-deve...
      - oarsinsync 7y ago
        There's a limitation on the number of apps you can sideload (3), and each app auto-expires after a short period (7 days) of time and needs to be re-provisioned.
phjesusthatguy3 7y ago
>Currently, I can go to the App Store, install any app, and be about 99.9% confident that the app will do me (or my technologically illiterate mother) absolutely no harm. That's the problem though. That last 0.1% is difficult, and Facebook (which, if your technologically illiterate mother doesn't have it installed, many others do) has been repeatedly shown to do harm to their users. Yet they're still on the apple app store.
tambourine_man 7y ago
There’s no need to open the App Store. I agree with you that it misses the point of having a store in the first place. What is needed is a big red button that makes it easy to sideload an app (download a file and run it) and explains the implications to the user.
ilikehurdles 7y ago
Why are the only options for installing apps "Strict App Store" and "Open App Store"? That's a false dichotomy. Let apple have its app store but remove the restrictions on installing apps from outside of it. If I want to install an apk directly from a publisher's website I should be able to.
- zaroth 7y ago
  Do you suppose those apk’s get to use the full set of iOS APIs and Services and not pay Apple for it?
  - rowanG077 7y ago
    Yes of course. Programs on windows also can use the full set of windows APIs and Services and not pay microsoft. It's not actually a developer using those APIs the consumer is using those APIs through an application and the consumer has paid for those APIs and Services by buying the phone.
    - zaroth 7y ago
      So you fundamentally believe the government should force Apple to provide its software and services under very specific terms of use. You understand that many of these APIs are actually cloud-backed services that cost Apple money to operate? You understand that Apple funds the development and operation of these services through their share of App Store revenue? But you fundamentally believe this business model should be banned / illegal, because the idea of a device existing like the modern day iPhone does — a device which no one on Earth requires, and which has many substitutes — the idea that this device exists in its current form as a cohesive set of APIs and services that every app employs in order to provide a consistent and “magical” end-user experience - this is somehow detestable and must be eliminated?
      - mcguire 7y ago
        Can we keep the discussion in good faith?
mcguire 7y ago
What happens when some app your technologically illiterate mother uses daily gets shut down?
trickstra 7y ago
One word for you: Ubuntu
burnte 7y ago
I think the arguments more at: a: Let me install from elsewhere if I want, like Android does (and I love) b: have more transparency in the back end processes of the store and better appeals. Right now it's very arbitrary and capricious. Yes they have a published set of rules, but they're enforced and interpreted in a very unpredictable way.
jshowa3 7y ago
That form of protection is an illusion. You can simply have the phone scan all your apps before download and install. No need for a store.
Allower 7y ago
False confidence is a terrible rationale. There are plenty of malicious apps on the iOS store. Quite frankly you have a false sense of security and you SHOULD be disabused of that notion. Stop trying to outsource personal responsibility
teh_infallible 7y ago
And yet the App Store is crammed with free apps that are basically just vehicles to deliver add and harvest your information. Free kids apps are the worst, because young children try to play the game and constantly end up steered towards ads that they don’t know how to navigate away from.
jimbob45 7y ago
I think what these people are asking for is that the App Store be forced to host everything (within reason) and for other sites to provide you the actual curation of what's good. Letting Apple do both is ethically gray right now.
levelist_com 7y ago
The argument isnt to open the store but to open the phone. You would still be able to only install apps from the store if you so choose. Others would be able to install any app theyd like. Also, app makers that could not afford to go through Apples vetting or developers who have written apps that Apple later decides is good enough to clone - so removes the non Apple version from the store for reasons, would no longer be shutdown completely.
polotics 7y ago
What about an alternate universe where the OS takes on the role of strongly isolating and protecting you from stray apps? I don't know, something like Qubes... Then you don't need the protection that the stores charges you a 30% premium for... (...)
w1nst0nsm1th 7y ago
I have found an app on the App Store which pretended to be linked to a cryptocurrency dealer and tried to force me to buy a 40€ in app purchase by abrutly and repeatedly asking for my fingerprint to remove absent ads. The app was indeed a scam by a random chinese dev impersonating a company he was not related to by using their brand as app name and their logo as app icon.

by laingc 7y ago

oblio 7y ago

You could just not void the warranty (more or less) for installing apps from other sources. Your mom always uses the App Store, everybody else is happy.

ericmay 7y ago
Which sounds fine until your mom hears about this cool App Store from her friend on Facebook, downloads a bunch of crap, and winds up at the Apple Store with Apple having to fix damage caused to her phone. I’m a little less sympathetic with the repairability stuff, but when it comes to the App Store, daddy Apple is doing a job that I want them to do, and changes here are not to my benefit and would make me less likely to buy the product.
- cooljacob204 7y ago
  Do they have a computer? Might as well take that away from them with that kind of outlook.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    That's a very viable approach. We got my wife's grandmother an iPad because she kept getting fleeced by Geek Squad after opening email attachments. Smooth running for years now. A lot of people don't have any need for a full-on computer.
    - pahool 7y ago
      I feel like my life would be a lot easier if I just got my parents and in-laws using Chromebooks. I don't like sacrificing family members on Google's altar, but the ecosystem really just fits their use cases. I've considered something like Solus-based laptops for them, but I haven't gotten around to testing out a configuration yet.
  - oarsinsync 7y ago
    I did. They're happier as their technology always works the way they expect. I'm happier as I don't get any more tech support calls. Please don't take that away from me.
- mindslight 7y ago
  > winds up at the Apple Store with Apple having to fix damage What is this nebulous "damage"? If an app escapes the sandbox and totally hoses the operating system, the fix should be basically plugging the phone into a cable at home and waiting say 24 hours to prevent evil maid attacks. If the malicious app manages go further and screw up the "hardware", then that implies a serious security vulnerability and so should be covered under warranty. A security model based around every bit of code on a device being vetted is fundamentally unscalable. The cracks are really starting to show, with increasing false positives and false negatives.
  - ericmay 7y ago
    I'm not sure if you have parents or relatives that call you for iPhone tech support, but I do. Even something like resetting a locked iPad requires a call sometimes. It's crazy. Now imagine people downloading all sorts of scam apps, having personal data uploaded, ransomware, you name it. And they are going to take that sucker straight to the Apple store if they don't have friends/family to fix it. Aside from that, I personally view the Apple App Store as a feature and a benefit to me. I don't want another App Store even if it were available.
    - mindslight 7y ago
      Any whole device reflash could also easily be done at an Apple store, even in a self-serve manner. > people downloading all sorts of scam apps, having personal data uploaded, ransomware, you name it Obviously if you just get rid of Apple's current solution and don't replace it with anything, then those things will happen like the jungle that was Windows. But that does not make for an argument in support of Apple's current solution. The answer is to address those problems for arbitrary code (eg isolation and fine grained capabilities), rather than simplistically asserting that any code on the device must be "good" and then enforcing a singular top-down regime to assure that. > I don't want another App Store even if it were available. See if you still hold this opinion in ten years when large companies have been pushed to ban secure communication tools in the interest of "public safety". The writing is already on the wall. (My current support load mainly consists of needing to help my dad because app UI elements are designed to be invisible. This is a problem caused by centralized control - banks create their own decommodified apps and want to look hip in the "design" world or whatever, as opposed to publishing a standardized API that would allow creation of independent apps for old people. And the same vacuous "security" FUD gets dragged out to justify that state of affairs as well)
- MiroF 7y ago
  If there's an app that can cause damage to my phone, that is Apple's problem for having an exploit in their sandbox and I would certainly expect them to repair the damage
gwd 7y ago
But there's more to the issue than just safety checking. The "App store tax" really is like a tax: it helps pay for developing the platform necessary for the apps to run on. Without that revenue, Apple would have to start looking for other ways of getting revenue -- for instance, selling my personal data.
- rchaud 7y ago
  They already get that with the $99/yr fee for the Apple Developer program: https://developer.apple.com/support/compare-memberships/ https://developer.apple.com/support/compare-memberships/
- skinnymuch 7y ago
  Apple charges $100 a year which provides some money. Their 30% charge can’t possibly be mostly a tax in the way you’re saying. Don’t they lower their cut of iAPs to 15% after first year? Likely still making a profit on that. What additional things is Apple doing for the additional 15% to 30% at first for iAP subscriptions, or for normal purchases, or for one time iAPs? I’m not saying Apple is wrong to make as much profit as they want. But to say any more than a 10% take at most (likely less) is a tax to have the ecosystem running can’t be true. Not with the $100 a year on top as well.
  - zaroth 7y ago
    Apple has made over $40 billion from the App Store since it launched, and paid out over $100 billion to developers. The $100/yr developer account fee is an anti-spam measure, not an actually significant revenue source. Apple and Google App Stores combined currently generate almost $100 billion in revenue per year. This is the biggest and best revenue source available on the planet for smaller developers. Easy end-user side loading, and third party app stores is a direct attack on this ecosystem and will damage the livelihoods of developers who will have no way to fight against massive increases in piracy that will result.
    - oblio 7y ago
      > Easy end-user side loading, and third party app stores is a direct attack on this ecosystem and will damage the livelihoods of developers who will have no way to fight against massive increases in piracy that will result. Windows developers seemed to be doing pretty well, even without an app store...
ceejayoz 7y ago
That's basically how "your mom" got 800 different browser toolbars installed. The people who tend to "void the warranty" tend to be the least equipped to evaluate the pros/cons of doing so.
- oblio 7y ago
  I didn't mean "your mom" as an insult, he literally said his mother did X and Y...
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    I'm not saying they meant it as an insult. I'm saying the end result winds up being the opposite of the ideal scenario OP's setting up - the people least prepared to evaluate the dangers of side-loading stuff are the most likely to go and do it.

daemin 7y ago

Except for those applications which have a "free period" of some days then charge $10/week and uninstalling the application does not stop the subscription.

zwily 7y ago
I believe iOS 13 will ask if you want to cancel a subscription when you uninstall its app...

inanutshellus 7y ago

What if Apple/Google weren't allowed to operate their personal app stores, and instead each was managed by for-profit 3rd parties? They'd be small enough and focused enough that their only option for survival would be trust.

Faark 7y ago
That's hardly a stable solution. It would start out nicely, but some of them would start eating up the market due to network effects. Then turn evil... If you make network effects harder (e.g. it extremely easy to submit apps to all of them), I don't see this not becoming a competition over price. And security is expensive. You'd have to prevent people search some nice apps on your store, then downloading the same on a different store with lots of shit tier apps as well, if it saves them your 30% tax.

SahAssar 7y ago

How do you define "absolutely no harm"? Cause a lot of them are clearly misleading about what they do, what permissions they require. A lot of games are clearly geared to be addictive and get you to spend money on their "free" game.

conception 7y ago
That wouldn't get better in an open ecosystem. No harm means not infecting your phone, other app, can be uninstalled easily etc.
- SahAssar 7y ago
  I'm not saying it would, but saying "absolutely no harm" seems a bit hyperbolic.

echelon 7y ago

I don't want to live in your locked-down Disney with the death sentence world. That's fine for you to want it, but don't impose it on me. I want freedom and liberty to do what I want with the devices I own. I want to develop without fear that these two megacorps can shut me down on a whim for developing something against their ideology. The web isn't like that. Windows wasn't like that. Today we live in a Fischer-Price future land where everybody has to wear gloves because we might get burned. I hate what we've become. I want to go back to the world before smartphones and Apple and app stores. The open web. Before Facebook and Google became big brother surveillance operations.

GhettoMaestro 7y ago
Your ideal state of Internet / Tech companies is definitely in the minority contrasted to overall expectations the broader population has put on these devices and services. Yeah, we get it, you're smart. I'm smart. Most people here are smart. But protections still matter. What you're saying is I don't want to wear a seatbelt when driving my car. Sure that is your choice - but I think it is a very foolish one.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  There's no reason the App Store can't hang around, we just want the ability to sideload. Comparing it to not wearing a seatbelt is a straw man, as it's more like being able to use your car however you like without the manufacturer's say so.
  - zuppy 7y ago
    you can already do that, you just have to build it yourself. here’s an article from 2016: https://9to5mac.com/2016/03/27/how-to-create-free-apple-developer-account-sideload-apps/ https://9to5mac.com/2016/03/27/how-to-create-free-apple-deve...
    - oarsinsync 7y ago
      There's a limitation on the number of apps you can sideload (3), and each app auto-expires after a short period (7 days) of time and needs to be re-provisioned.

phjesusthatguy3 7y ago

>Currently, I can go to the App Store, install any app, and be about 99.9% confident that the app will do me (or my technologically illiterate mother) absolutely no harm. That's the problem though. That last 0.1% is difficult, and Facebook (which, if your technologically illiterate mother doesn't have it installed, many others do) has been repeatedly shown to do harm to their users. Yet they're still on the apple app store.

tambourine_man 7y ago

There’s no need to open the App Store. I agree with you that it misses the point of having a store in the first place. What is needed is a big red button that makes it easy to sideload an app (download a file and run it) and explains the implications to the user.

ilikehurdles 7y ago

Why are the only options for installing apps "Strict App Store" and "Open App Store"? That's a false dichotomy. Let apple have its app store but remove the restrictions on installing apps from outside of it. If I want to install an apk directly from a publisher's website I should be able to.

zaroth 7y ago
Do you suppose those apk’s get to use the full set of iOS APIs and Services and not pay Apple for it?
- rowanG077 7y ago
  Yes of course. Programs on windows also can use the full set of windows APIs and Services and not pay microsoft. It's not actually a developer using those APIs the consumer is using those APIs through an application and the consumer has paid for those APIs and Services by buying the phone.
  - zaroth 7y ago
    So you fundamentally believe the government should force Apple to provide its software and services under very specific terms of use. You understand that many of these APIs are actually cloud-backed services that cost Apple money to operate? You understand that Apple funds the development and operation of these services through their share of App Store revenue? But you fundamentally believe this business model should be banned / illegal, because the idea of a device existing like the modern day iPhone does — a device which no one on Earth requires, and which has many substitutes — the idea that this device exists in its current form as a cohesive set of APIs and services that every app employs in order to provide a consistent and “magical” end-user experience - this is somehow detestable and must be eliminated?
    - mcguire 7y ago
      Can we keep the discussion in good faith?

mcguire 7y ago

What happens when some app your technologically illiterate mother uses daily gets shut down?

trickstra 7y ago

One word for you: Ubuntu

burnte 7y ago

I think the arguments more at: a: Let me install from elsewhere if I want, like Android does (and I love) b: have more transparency in the back end processes of the store and better appeals. Right now it's very arbitrary and capricious. Yes they have a published set of rules, but they're enforced and interpreted in a very unpredictable way.

jshowa3 7y ago

That form of protection is an illusion. You can simply have the phone scan all your apps before download and install. No need for a store.

Allower 7y ago

False confidence is a terrible rationale. There are plenty of malicious apps on the iOS store. Quite frankly you have a false sense of security and you SHOULD be disabused of that notion. Stop trying to outsource personal responsibility

teh_infallible 7y ago

And yet the App Store is crammed with free apps that are basically just vehicles to deliver add and harvest your information. Free kids apps are the worst, because young children try to play the game and constantly end up steered towards ads that they don’t know how to navigate away from.

jimbob45 7y ago

I think what these people are asking for is that the App Store be forced to host everything (within reason) and for other sites to provide you the actual curation of what's good. Letting Apple do both is ethically gray right now.

levelist_com 7y ago

The argument isnt to open the store but to open the phone. You would still be able to only install apps from the store if you so choose. Others would be able to install any app theyd like. Also, app makers that could not afford to go through Apples vetting or developers who have written apps that Apple later decides is good enough to clone - so removes the non Apple version from the store for reasons, would no longer be shutdown completely.

polotics 7y ago

What about an alternate universe where the OS takes on the role of strongly isolating and protecting you from stray apps? I don't know, something like Qubes... Then you don't need the protection that the stores charges you a 30% premium for... (...)

w1nst0nsm1th 7y ago

I have found an app on the App Store which pretended to be linked to a cryptocurrency dealer and tried to force me to buy a 40€ in app purchase by abrutly and repeatedly asking for my fingerprint to remove absent ads. The app was indeed a scam by a random chinese dev impersonating a company he was not related to by using their brand as app name and their logo as app icon.