6 ms·

The worst part is that I can tell this keyboard is actually having a detrimental effect on my typing abilities. Since being on these keyboards for years now, I'

The worst part is that I can tell this keyboard is actually having a detrimental effect on my typing abilities. Since being on these keyboards for years now, I've noticed that my typing speed has slowed, as I spend a significant amount of cognitive energy preparing to fix mistakes. The faster you type, the more annoying it is to go farther back to fix something. I'm not sure how to quantify the focus it steals from tasks or the anxiety it gives me, but I think they are also real. Not to mention it is infuriating to see some strange spelling error that is completely the keyboard's fault in a message or email you sent, making you look like an idiot. The thread from @getify ( https://twitter.com/getify/status/1165300052463480832 https://twitter.com/getify/status/1165300052463480832 ) on having to wait 3 days for a repair, even though it is done in-store is truly infuriating. He is absolutely right that it makes no sense to have to leave a computer sitting around doing nothing, and you should just be able to be told to bring it back when your computer would be 24 hours away from being repaired. The computer isn't being shipped anywhere, but Apple must still severely hamper your productivity on a product you spent thousands of dollars on. Their constant reference to a "small minority of users experiencing this" in light of these huge delays at the store for a super-quick and simple fix has become insulting. I won't register anywhere as someone "experiencing this issue" since I don't have 3 days to not use my computer for a fix that will probably break again in months.

jgalentine007 7y ago
I feel you. A long time ago I had a windows laptop keyboard that was glitching out. After a few weeks, I literally threw it out the window in frustration! I'm more mature now, I think...
- thermonot 7y ago
  No. You just can't be seen typing on anything but a Mac. It would destroy your street cred.
  - spsrich2 7y ago
    Apple could triple the price of the MBP and reduce quality still further and the HN crowd would still queue up to buy it!!!
1123581321 7y ago
Curious if you’ve tested this. I thought the keyboard was slowing down my speed, so I did a lot of wpm testing and was surprised that I was slightly faster. I still feel slower after the tests and have verified it a couple of times. I’m not sure how to account for this phenomenon other than possibly the lower travel feeling like less intense effort.
- chipotle_coyote 7y ago
  I did a test recently -- today! -- myself on this, and found that the butterfly keyboard does slow me down a bit compared to my usual rate, which I wouldn't have actually predicted; I'm slightly slower on it in terms of raw keystrokes and also slightly less accurate. But it's not an incredible difference, and there are other keyboards I've used (like the much-hyped Brydge keyboard for the iPad Pro) which had more deleterious effects.
  - 1123581321 7y ago
    Interesting. I wish there could be a corpus of data on this to help understand what makes the keyboard better for some and worse for others.
- Tagbert 7y ago
  I feel that I am more likely to brush a neighboring key and that key is more likely to trigger on the butterfly keyboard of my 2017 work machine than on my 2014 home machine. I end up doing a lot more corrections on the butterfly keyboard. It seems like the tighter spacing and lower travel result in more unintentional key presses.
  - 1123581321 7y ago
    Yes, I think the keyboard needs the typist to adapt to it more than is appropriate for a mass market keyboard. I had the 2014 also and had to unlearn how I rested my hands on it and touched it. Not everyone will equally succeed at that, as evidenced by my coworkers who are still hitting the 2017-2019 keys way too hard.
kalleboo 7y ago
> having to wait 3 days for a repair He's lucky he has an Apple Store to go to. I had to turn in my 2017 MBP to a "Authorized Service Provider" who in turn had to send it in to Apple. I was without my machine for 10 days (luckily I still had my old, working 2012 MBPr I could just imagine my machine onto and keep working)
- waterhouse 7y ago
  > just imagine my machine onto and keep working I assume you installed an image of your 2017 machine onto the 2012 machine... but the idea of imagining onto a machine is a nice one.
  - ymolodtsov 7y ago
    You could just imagine a working keyboard.
- iserlohnmage 7y ago
  Actually we do have an App Store in our city. But it took also 2 weeks to repair it. The staff at Genius Bar said they didn't have enough capacity.
traderjane 7y ago
Does Apple not offer a loaner laptop during that period? If not, I'm quite unimpressed. These laptops are expected to be purchased by working professionals... what does Apple imagine is the customer workflow when an issue arises? Pause your work while the laptop is in repair?
- AdamGibbins 7y ago
  They do not. I've heard their recommended advice if this is a problem is to fork out and purchase yet another laptop at your own cost, and return it within the return window.
  - syrgian 7y ago
    So any bump on the aluminum that the store clerk doesn't approve of would cost you around $800? (since I assume the only way out would be selling it second-hand with a huge discount)
- john_minsk 7y ago
  Buy another one...
- type0 7y ago
  > These laptops are expected to be purchased by working professionals But these are not business type products, macbook pro laptops are luxury consumer goods if anything.
  - EForEndeavour 7y ago
    > But these are not business type products, macbook pro laptops are luxury consumer goods if anything. What are you basing this woefully uninformed statement on? Countless companies issue MBPs to their staff.
aglionby 7y ago
> wait 3 days for a repair My 2015 MBP is affected by the battery recall and they want 2-3 weeks to send it off to a repair centre to have the battery replaced. No chance to have it done in-store owing to safety concerns (which I'm not sure I entirely buy given that it's an overheating issue, but it's hard to tell without the full details). And no budging on the timeframe or possibility of a loaner. One of the more frustrating customer service experiences. Not that I'd like to be in charge of organising a recall of 500,000 laptops.
- vmurthy 7y ago
  > My 2015 MBP is affected by the battery recall and they want 2-3 weeks to send it off If you really have to understand the pain, the laptops are banned in Indian flights (domestic and international)[1]. Imagine a company issued laptop not being usable at an important customer exhibition and a lag of 2-3 weeks :-( https://www.livemint.com/technology/tech-news/specific-models-of-apple-s-macbook-pro-laptops-banned-on-flights-in-india-1566824238417.html https://www.livemint.com/technology/tech-news/specific-model...
  - bildung 7y ago
    And only a few years ago, before the thinnness wars, this would have been a complete non-issue: One would just fly without the battery attached, as those were easily removable.
- otakucode 7y ago
  They just said '2-3 weeks' to give themselves some cover at first I think. On the day of its announcement they said 2-3 weeks. When I actually registered to send mine in a week or two later, it said 5 days. And it took maybe 5 days (I wasn't really paying that much attention, I don't use my MBP all that often) from when fedex picked it up to when they dropped it off with the battery replaced. It was actually quite a pleasant experience all things considered. Only gripe I really had about it was that the support person I chatted with when registering my system for the repair requested I use the system to do multiple things (add a separate administrative user for them to use if necessary, log out of iCloud, deactivate system in iTunes, etc). When you tell me not to use a system at all because it is in danger of bursting into flames at any moment, I'm not a big fan of then being told to use it to prep for sending it in...
addicted 7y ago
I contrast this with the experience my dad has while traveling in NYC with his pro laptop in about 2011. The Apple Store needed 3 days to repair, and he was leaving the city before then. They simply recommended a 3rd party repairer who could do it within the day, which is what happened, and consequently giving my dad what he needed, boosting the Apple eco system, and providing better feelings towards Apple. In the past 5 or so years, however, Apple has consistently been killing their 3rd party repair eco system, as well documented by Louis Rossmann. The idea that they may recommend a 3rd party repair source seems unimaginable, but further, most 3rd party repair basically involves sending the package to Apple repair anyways, as they’re not allowed to make changes on their own for anything but a small subset of issues.
- parasubvert 7y ago
  Apple's support website still lists all authorized third party repair outlets, of which there are many in most cities. I've been recommended them before, it's not unimaginable, and no, they generally don't send it to Apple (source: a good friend who works at London Drugs, which has a fairly good Apple-authorized computer shop inside of its various locations in Canada). If the laptop itself isn't serviceable (e.g. rare things like diagnosed catastrophic mainboard failure) they will just replace it from repair stock if it's under warranty. The top case / keyboard IS serviceable by most third party outlets to my understanding.
- wlesieutre 7y ago
  Did you see their press release this morning? https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/08/apple-offers-customers-even-more-options-for-safe-reliable-repairs/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/08/apple-offers-customer... > New Independent Repair Provider Program Expands Genuine Parts Access to More Repair Businesses > Cupertino, California — Apple today announced a new repair program, offering customers additional options for the most common out-of-warranty iPhone repairs. Apple will provide more independent repair businesses — large or small — with the same genuine parts, tools, training, repair manuals and diagnostics as its Apple Authorized Service Providers (AASPs). The program is launching in the US with plans to expand to other countries. > “To better meet our customers’ needs, we’re making it easier for independent providers across the US to tap into the same resources as our Apple Authorized Service Provider network,” said Jeff Williams, Apple’s chief operating officer. “When a repair is needed, a customer should have confidence the repair is done right. We believe the safest and most reliable repair is one handled by a trained technician using genuine parts that have been properly engineered and rigorously tested.” For "most common out-of-warranty iPhone repairs" I'd bet they're talking about batteries and screens. Especially alongside the recent "battery health" change where it only gives stats for Apple's batteries.
vegardx 7y ago
> having to wait 3 days for a repair, even though it is done in-store is truly infuriating Oh - but it gets worse. I had my keyboard replaced a year ago, and it took over a week. In Norway they don't stock US International keyboards, which I can accept, but they can't (or won't, hard to tell) order a replacement unit before taking it into service. So it has to stay with them while they wait a 3-5 days just to get the spare parts. Great! I was about to walk out of the store when they told me they needed my password to run "keyboard diagnostics" and that they were unsure wether or not KEYS FALLING OFF was covered by warranty.
- penagwin 7y ago
  I worked in computer/ phone repair - given the context keys falling off should definitely be under warranty. However lacking that context (let's assume there aren't widespread keyboard issues for that model) keys falling off could be the result of "rough handling" - we can't tell if a frustrated user was pounding at their keys or not, etc But yeah given the known widespread keyboard issues for the Macbooks...
  - type0 7y ago
    "rough handling" hehe. Wouldn't surprise me if Apple went and said this right out: stop typing that hard on our delicate little keys, be gentle, remember when you were holding our iDevice incorrectly? and we told you so.
    - penagwin 7y ago
      Don't get me wrong, it would just be Apple throwing excuses here. In general you never know with people :P. We also bought tablets/phones. Guy came in with his kids, kid tries to sell us a kindle fire that's in great condition that he "found in the woods" - right the woods? Do you mean somebodies backpack?
Mandatum 7y ago
> I don't have 3 days to not use my computer You're really that busy? You don't have a PC or a spare old laptop to continue working on?

jgalentine007 7y ago

I feel you. A long time ago I had a windows laptop keyboard that was glitching out. After a few weeks, I literally threw it out the window in frustration! I'm more mature now, I think...

thermonot 7y ago
No. You just can't be seen typing on anything but a Mac. It would destroy your street cred.
- spsrich2 7y ago
  Apple could triple the price of the MBP and reduce quality still further and the HN crowd would still queue up to buy it!!!

1123581321 7y ago

Curious if you’ve tested this. I thought the keyboard was slowing down my speed, so I did a lot of wpm testing and was surprised that I was slightly faster. I still feel slower after the tests and have verified it a couple of times. I’m not sure how to account for this phenomenon other than possibly the lower travel feeling like less intense effort.

chipotle_coyote 7y ago
I did a test recently -- today! -- myself on this, and found that the butterfly keyboard does slow me down a bit compared to my usual rate, which I wouldn't have actually predicted; I'm slightly slower on it in terms of raw keystrokes and also slightly less accurate. But it's not an incredible difference, and there are other keyboards I've used (like the much-hyped Brydge keyboard for the iPad Pro) which had more deleterious effects.
- 1123581321 7y ago
  Interesting. I wish there could be a corpus of data on this to help understand what makes the keyboard better for some and worse for others.
Tagbert 7y ago
I feel that I am more likely to brush a neighboring key and that key is more likely to trigger on the butterfly keyboard of my 2017 work machine than on my 2014 home machine. I end up doing a lot more corrections on the butterfly keyboard. It seems like the tighter spacing and lower travel result in more unintentional key presses.
- 1123581321 7y ago
  Yes, I think the keyboard needs the typist to adapt to it more than is appropriate for a mass market keyboard. I had the 2014 also and had to unlearn how I rested my hands on it and touched it. Not everyone will equally succeed at that, as evidenced by my coworkers who are still hitting the 2017-2019 keys way too hard.

kalleboo 7y ago

> having to wait 3 days for a repair He's lucky he has an Apple Store to go to. I had to turn in my 2017 MBP to a "Authorized Service Provider" who in turn had to send it in to Apple. I was without my machine for 10 days (luckily I still had my old, working 2012 MBPr I could just imagine my machine onto and keep working)

waterhouse 7y ago
> just imagine my machine onto and keep working I assume you installed an image of your 2017 machine onto the 2012 machine... but the idea of imagining onto a machine is a nice one.
- ymolodtsov 7y ago
  You could just imagine a working keyboard.
iserlohnmage 7y ago
Actually we do have an App Store in our city. But it took also 2 weeks to repair it. The staff at Genius Bar said they didn't have enough capacity.

traderjane 7y ago

Does Apple not offer a loaner laptop during that period? If not, I'm quite unimpressed. These laptops are expected to be purchased by working professionals... what does Apple imagine is the customer workflow when an issue arises? Pause your work while the laptop is in repair?

AdamGibbins 7y ago
They do not. I've heard their recommended advice if this is a problem is to fork out and purchase yet another laptop at your own cost, and return it within the return window.
- syrgian 7y ago
  So any bump on the aluminum that the store clerk doesn't approve of would cost you around $800? (since I assume the only way out would be selling it second-hand with a huge discount)
john_minsk 7y ago
Buy another one...
type0 7y ago
> These laptops are expected to be purchased by working professionals But these are not business type products, macbook pro laptops are luxury consumer goods if anything.
- EForEndeavour 7y ago
  > But these are not business type products, macbook pro laptops are luxury consumer goods if anything. What are you basing this woefully uninformed statement on? Countless companies issue MBPs to their staff.

aglionby 7y ago

> wait 3 days for a repair My 2015 MBP is affected by the battery recall and they want 2-3 weeks to send it off to a repair centre to have the battery replaced. No chance to have it done in-store owing to safety concerns (which I'm not sure I entirely buy given that it's an overheating issue, but it's hard to tell without the full details). And no budging on the timeframe or possibility of a loaner. One of the more frustrating customer service experiences. Not that I'd like to be in charge of organising a recall of 500,000 laptops.

vmurthy 7y ago
> My 2015 MBP is affected by the battery recall and they want 2-3 weeks to send it off If you really have to understand the pain, the laptops are banned in Indian flights (domestic and international)[1]. Imagine a company issued laptop not being usable at an important customer exhibition and a lag of 2-3 weeks :-( https://www.livemint.com/technology/tech-news/specific-models-of-apple-s-macbook-pro-laptops-banned-on-flights-in-india-1566824238417.html https://www.livemint.com/technology/tech-news/specific-model...
- bildung 7y ago
  And only a few years ago, before the thinnness wars, this would have been a complete non-issue: One would just fly without the battery attached, as those were easily removable.
otakucode 7y ago
They just said '2-3 weeks' to give themselves some cover at first I think. On the day of its announcement they said 2-3 weeks. When I actually registered to send mine in a week or two later, it said 5 days. And it took maybe 5 days (I wasn't really paying that much attention, I don't use my MBP all that often) from when fedex picked it up to when they dropped it off with the battery replaced. It was actually quite a pleasant experience all things considered. Only gripe I really had about it was that the support person I chatted with when registering my system for the repair requested I use the system to do multiple things (add a separate administrative user for them to use if necessary, log out of iCloud, deactivate system in iTunes, etc). When you tell me not to use a system at all because it is in danger of bursting into flames at any moment, I'm not a big fan of then being told to use it to prep for sending it in...

addicted 7y ago

I contrast this with the experience my dad has while traveling in NYC with his pro laptop in about 2011. The Apple Store needed 3 days to repair, and he was leaving the city before then. They simply recommended a 3rd party repairer who could do it within the day, which is what happened, and consequently giving my dad what he needed, boosting the Apple eco system, and providing better feelings towards Apple. In the past 5 or so years, however, Apple has consistently been killing their 3rd party repair eco system, as well documented by Louis Rossmann. The idea that they may recommend a 3rd party repair source seems unimaginable, but further, most 3rd party repair basically involves sending the package to Apple repair anyways, as they’re not allowed to make changes on their own for anything but a small subset of issues.

parasubvert 7y ago
Apple's support website still lists all authorized third party repair outlets, of which there are many in most cities. I've been recommended them before, it's not unimaginable, and no, they generally don't send it to Apple (source: a good friend who works at London Drugs, which has a fairly good Apple-authorized computer shop inside of its various locations in Canada). If the laptop itself isn't serviceable (e.g. rare things like diagnosed catastrophic mainboard failure) they will just replace it from repair stock if it's under warranty. The top case / keyboard IS serviceable by most third party outlets to my understanding.
wlesieutre 7y ago
Did you see their press release this morning? https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/08/apple-offers-customers-even-more-options-for-safe-reliable-repairs/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/08/apple-offers-customer... > New Independent Repair Provider Program Expands Genuine Parts Access to More Repair Businesses > Cupertino, California — Apple today announced a new repair program, offering customers additional options for the most common out-of-warranty iPhone repairs. Apple will provide more independent repair businesses — large or small — with the same genuine parts, tools, training, repair manuals and diagnostics as its Apple Authorized Service Providers (AASPs). The program is launching in the US with plans to expand to other countries. > “To better meet our customers’ needs, we’re making it easier for independent providers across the US to tap into the same resources as our Apple Authorized Service Provider network,” said Jeff Williams, Apple’s chief operating officer. “When a repair is needed, a customer should have confidence the repair is done right. We believe the safest and most reliable repair is one handled by a trained technician using genuine parts that have been properly engineered and rigorously tested.” For "most common out-of-warranty iPhone repairs" I'd bet they're talking about batteries and screens. Especially alongside the recent "battery health" change where it only gives stats for Apple's batteries.

vegardx 7y ago

> having to wait 3 days for a repair, even though it is done in-store is truly infuriating Oh - but it gets worse. I had my keyboard replaced a year ago, and it took over a week. In Norway they don't stock US International keyboards, which I can accept, but they can't (or won't, hard to tell) order a replacement unit before taking it into service. So it has to stay with them while they wait a 3-5 days just to get the spare parts. Great! I was about to walk out of the store when they told me they needed my password to run "keyboard diagnostics" and that they were unsure wether or not KEYS FALLING OFF was covered by warranty.

penagwin 7y ago
I worked in computer/ phone repair - given the context keys falling off should definitely be under warranty. However lacking that context (let's assume there aren't widespread keyboard issues for that model) keys falling off could be the result of "rough handling" - we can't tell if a frustrated user was pounding at their keys or not, etc But yeah given the known widespread keyboard issues for the Macbooks...
- type0 7y ago
  "rough handling" hehe. Wouldn't surprise me if Apple went and said this right out: stop typing that hard on our delicate little keys, be gentle, remember when you were holding our iDevice incorrectly? and we told you so.
  - penagwin 7y ago
    Don't get me wrong, it would just be Apple throwing excuses here. In general you never know with people :P. We also bought tablets/phones. Guy came in with his kids, kid tries to sell us a kindle fire that's in great condition that he "found in the woods" - right the woods? Do you mean somebodies backpack?

Mandatum 7y ago

> I don't have 3 days to not use my computer You're really that busy? You don't have a PC or a spare old laptop to continue working on?