6 ms·

Spoken like someone who can't comprehend living hand to mouth. Happiness is definitely a hockey-stick shaped curve, going from 1M to 10M is not going to make y

by paulmd 7y ago

Spoken like someone who can't comprehend living hand to mouth. Happiness is definitely a hockey-stick shaped curve, going from 1M to 10M is not going to make you happier, but someone who is making $100k is going to be far far happier than someone making $20k. The difference between scrabbling to pay your bills and keep the heat on, vs actually having some savings and free money for recreation, is absolutely massive.

Aeolun 7y ago
I’m not so certain about that actually, I’ve certainly seen people making $20k that had more free money and recreation time than some people making $100k. Especially as regards recreation time. To be fair, making $20k was almost always a choice in those cases.
- kuzimoto 7y ago
  How were those people living? Are they single people in their mid 20s with no significant other or kids? Are they making enough to put some towards retirement? I guess if you're willing to sacrifice some things it could work. You're definitely not raising a family of 3-4 in a nicer neighborhood with that amount.
  - drblast 7y ago
    Not everyone considers it a sacrifice to not be married or have kids. For the people who do fewer than half of them are happy that way. We're all pretty bad at knowing what will make us happy in advance.
    - kuzimoto 7y ago
      I'm not exactly saying not having a family is a sacrifice, but where you want to live. The cheapest apartment I could find in my area (before kids/marriage) was about $700 and that's a few cities away in a no-so-great area where cops were getting called to our neighbors every few days. I could go closer to downtown and be in a worse area. With kids, the cheaper areas have generally worse schools, parks, etc.
  - afcapel 7y ago
    The median annual household income worldwide is about 10k/year. 20k/year puts you in the 91st percentile globally for person income. So it's perfectly possible to live with that money, most people in the world do.
    - kuzimoto 7y ago
      I figured we were talking mostly about US, so technically until you're a family of 3 you're not living in poverty, which seems pretty reasonable. It also probably greatly depends on where you live. Housing prices closer to major/wealthy cities are more expensive. Having an income of 20k/year in US puts you at like 16th percentile.
    - digitaltrees 7y ago
      Cost of goods and services is proportional in most places. Human happiness is often based on perceived social standing rather than objective wealth. That is assuming your status is above subsistence level in your society.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    I don't know how other people live, but for me, the overriding expense has always been rent. But in some places I've been, there are apartments with lower than market rent that are reserved for people with low income. I don't think there is one correct answer to the question of how much money you have to have to live, because it's mostly about your biggest expense, imo. Everything else you can economize on to an extreme if you have to, if you're healthy and sane and frugal. Once you start talking about a "nice" neighborhood, you're talking about a competitive zero-sum game where the costs can increase without limit.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Aeolun 7y ago
    Ah, these people were living in a first world nation with functional social systems, so it wasn’t actually as hard as it might seem. The neighborhood they were living in was generally fairly average, everything considered. But only one of them had one kid (also single parent though). Not in a large city. But I’m fairly sure in that case the main downgrade would be the neighborhood.
- aianus 7y ago
  I strongly agree with this. A lot of people are happy in college and they're almost all living on less than $24k a year despite working over 40h a week (although schoolwork is a lot more engaging than industry IMHO).
  - distances 7y ago
    That's because it's expected, all their friends are living in the same way, and they see this as temporary, with a larger income not that far off. I can say I was very happy with minimal income in my university years, but would not be anymore as my friends are out of the campus and getting forward with their lives.
    - aianus 7y ago
      Yes, so it is not the lack of money that makes one unhappy (say, at ~$24k/yr and no health problems), but comparison to others and attachment to worldly things. This is what causes people in the West who earn $35k and $350k alike to feel 'poor' despite the fact that even the former income is already in the global 99th percentile.
      - distances 7y ago
        Yes, but I'd emphasize the "temporary" part: hope of better things in the future is important for the human psyche (for extreme case see religions, for example). Students are full of hope, someone at 24k may feel like they are at a dead end.
- digitaltrees 7y ago
  That’s not consistent with the empirical evidence in sociology research. Reported happiness does drastically change between $20k in the US and $80k specifically. And in fact it isn’t specifically a choice. Sure you can make choices that, over a long term, will boost your income but it’s rarely a choice.
  - asdfman123 7y ago
    It doesn't change "drastically," only by a point or so. Knowing the way studies like this typically work, it could also be that if you are smart with your money (e.g. frugal and not chronically short on cash), you're just as happy as making someone more. I'm sure many of the 6's were in the "I'm doing okay, but man my life would be better if I weren't so broke right now" camp. https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13954 https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13954
- Scarblac 7y ago
  Yes, but then we're talking different types of people. Some people are just fundamentally happier than others, it seems. On average people making $80k are happier than those making $20k, to a greater degree than when comparing $10M to $1M.
- GarvielLoken 7y ago
  Happiness has the absolute strongest correlation with a strong social life and not with wealth. That's why happiness is declining in the WEIRD countries (Western, educated, industrialized, rich and democratic).
  - TuringTest 7y ago
    And, considering that the homeless don't get a proper social life, that makes them specially vulnerable to unhappiness.

by paulmd 7y ago

Aeolun 7y ago

I’m not so certain about that actually, I’ve certainly seen people making $20k that had more free money and recreation time than some people making $100k. Especially as regards recreation time. To be fair, making $20k was almost always a choice in those cases.

kuzimoto 7y ago
How were those people living? Are they single people in their mid 20s with no significant other or kids? Are they making enough to put some towards retirement? I guess if you're willing to sacrifice some things it could work. You're definitely not raising a family of 3-4 in a nicer neighborhood with that amount.
- drblast 7y ago
  Not everyone considers it a sacrifice to not be married or have kids. For the people who do fewer than half of them are happy that way. We're all pretty bad at knowing what will make us happy in advance.
  - kuzimoto 7y ago
    I'm not exactly saying not having a family is a sacrifice, but where you want to live. The cheapest apartment I could find in my area (before kids/marriage) was about $700 and that's a few cities away in a no-so-great area where cops were getting called to our neighbors every few days. I could go closer to downtown and be in a worse area. With kids, the cheaper areas have generally worse schools, parks, etc.
- afcapel 7y ago
  The median annual household income worldwide is about 10k/year. 20k/year puts you in the 91st percentile globally for person income. So it's perfectly possible to live with that money, most people in the world do.
  - kuzimoto 7y ago
    I figured we were talking mostly about US, so technically until you're a family of 3 you're not living in poverty, which seems pretty reasonable. It also probably greatly depends on where you live. Housing prices closer to major/wealthy cities are more expensive. Having an income of 20k/year in US puts you at like 16th percentile.
  - digitaltrees 7y ago
    Cost of goods and services is proportional in most places. Human happiness is often based on perceived social standing rather than objective wealth. That is assuming your status is above subsistence level in your society.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  I don't know how other people live, but for me, the overriding expense has always been rent. But in some places I've been, there are apartments with lower than market rent that are reserved for people with low income. I don't think there is one correct answer to the question of how much money you have to have to live, because it's mostly about your biggest expense, imo. Everything else you can economize on to an extreme if you have to, if you're healthy and sane and frugal. Once you start talking about a "nice" neighborhood, you're talking about a competitive zero-sum game where the costs can increase without limit.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Aeolun 7y ago
  Ah, these people were living in a first world nation with functional social systems, so it wasn’t actually as hard as it might seem. The neighborhood they were living in was generally fairly average, everything considered. But only one of them had one kid (also single parent though). Not in a large city. But I’m fairly sure in that case the main downgrade would be the neighborhood.
aianus 7y ago
I strongly agree with this. A lot of people are happy in college and they're almost all living on less than $24k a year despite working over 40h a week (although schoolwork is a lot more engaging than industry IMHO).
- distances 7y ago
  That's because it's expected, all their friends are living in the same way, and they see this as temporary, with a larger income not that far off. I can say I was very happy with minimal income in my university years, but would not be anymore as my friends are out of the campus and getting forward with their lives.
  - aianus 7y ago
    Yes, so it is not the lack of money that makes one unhappy (say, at ~$24k/yr and no health problems), but comparison to others and attachment to worldly things. This is what causes people in the West who earn $35k and $350k alike to feel 'poor' despite the fact that even the former income is already in the global 99th percentile.
    - distances 7y ago
      Yes, but I'd emphasize the "temporary" part: hope of better things in the future is important for the human psyche (for extreme case see religions, for example). Students are full of hope, someone at 24k may feel like they are at a dead end.
digitaltrees 7y ago
That’s not consistent with the empirical evidence in sociology research. Reported happiness does drastically change between $20k in the US and $80k specifically. And in fact it isn’t specifically a choice. Sure you can make choices that, over a long term, will boost your income but it’s rarely a choice.
- asdfman123 7y ago
  It doesn't change "drastically," only by a point or so. Knowing the way studies like this typically work, it could also be that if you are smart with your money (e.g. frugal and not chronically short on cash), you're just as happy as making someone more. I'm sure many of the 6's were in the "I'm doing okay, but man my life would be better if I weren't so broke right now" camp. https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13954 https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13954
Scarblac 7y ago
Yes, but then we're talking different types of people. Some people are just fundamentally happier than others, it seems. On average people making $80k are happier than those making $20k, to a greater degree than when comparing $10M to $1M.
GarvielLoken 7y ago
Happiness has the absolute strongest correlation with a strong social life and not with wealth. That's why happiness is declining in the WEIRD countries (Western, educated, industrialized, rich and democratic).
- TuringTest 7y ago
  And, considering that the homeless don't get a proper social life, that makes them specially vulnerable to unhappiness.