8 ms·

Cost of owning a BMW i3

40 points by d3k 7y ago

davidbanham 7y ago
I wonder why he's getting rid of the vehicle.
- topbanana 7y ago
  Three year leases are common in the UK
  - djmobley 7y ago
    OP says he bought the car privately.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  It's a one car household. He's probably going back to something that has a more practical form factor i.e. another 4-door station wagon (a 4dr hatch is a small station wagon, change my mind) of similar footprint. The i3 is heavily optimized to be a city commuter car. It's not optimized to be a multi-tool Or his wife (page isn't loading anymore but IIRC he used a bunch of language implying he has a >1 person household) has one in the oven and they're doing what every upper middle class couple does when that happens, buying a crossover.
lnsru 7y ago
Very detailed writing, thank you! But this “Costs for maintenance totalled £3056.0” is shocking! It’s a golden car! Ok, it has internal combustion engine too, but 100€ maintenance monthly is shocking. 8 tires for 45000 km is also shocking. I am driving almost double that with one set (except nasty flats). Are other electric cars cheaper to drive?
- geerlingguy 7y ago
  He mentioned the tires are a very specific size only really available from one source, and that they are narrower than a typical tire. I’m guessing that means reduced tread life, and not having options means it’s probably harder to find the perfect tire for your climate and region to optimize longevity. I agree, though; I can usually get the same range out of one set of tires.
  - peterwwillis 7y ago
    You don't have to stick to the OEM tire. You can get a different, cheaper size, as long as it doesn't rub the wheel well or bottom out. And the exact tire and manufacturer you get, along with the conditions it was kept in, will determine the wear life of the tire. And when people complain about their tires wearing fast, it's often just badly aligned tires that could be fixed by going to a better mechanic. And buying tires online or from a warehouse is always cheaper, often by a lot. So just because you have a certain kind of car doesn't mean you will always have the same tire wear or cost.
    - gambiting 7y ago
      >>You can get a different, cheaper size, as long as it doesn't rub the wheel well or bottom out. In the UK you have to tell your insurer if you do that and it can impact your insurance significantly in some cases. The best one I could find was with Aviva they allow 10mm variation in width of the tyre from the manufacturer spec, so if the original size was 225/45 you could buy 235/45 or 215/45, but anything beyond that would require you telling them and have an impact on your premium. Chaging the rims to a different size always requires telling the insurer, even if they are the manufacturer's original rims(which is incredibly dumb, I bought my car with factory 20" wheels, I bought an original set of wheels directly from the dealership in 19" size but I still have to tell my insurer because it's a "modification" to the factory spec of the vehicle).
      - peterwwillis 7y ago
        Why would you tell your insurer? They don't go around checking tire widths, afaik
        gambiting 7y ago
        Because if you have an accident and they find out you had tyres/rims different from stock they will absolutely either refuse to pay out the claim or reduce it significantly. Especially if you put on tyres of a different size than that approved by the manfucaturer, they can very easily say that a tyre that is too narrow/too wide affects how the car handles and it would have contributed to the accident.
- kozak 7y ago
  i3 tire are notoriously expensive. People call them "bicycle tires" as they are large in diameter and very narrow, and they also have different sizes back and front.
- archi42 7y ago
  400 of that was for the brake replacement, and the remaining 2600 sound pretty normal these days (if you're going to a manufacturer contracted garage instead of some 3rd party garage). Remember there is still an ICE for range extension, and the inspection checklists probably doesn't care whether you used the ICE virtually never or all the time. As for tires, my hybrid seems better and also takes pretty much any manufacturers tires (19/235 summer, 17/235 winter - can't say anything detailed about durability regarding my driving since I only have it since April this year, but the previous owner seemed to make about 40000km per set), but the i3 tires seem to be purpose build, so less quantity (more expensive) and MAYBE focused much more on efficiency over durability. Also 45k miles, not km? (Link is down now, so can't check). (some editing)
  - lnsru 7y ago
    Sadly km or ~900 miles per month. Engine inside is small one from motorcycle, so it shouldn’t be hard to service. I was considering buying i3, but went for 328i.
    - bluGill 7y ago
      Small engines generally need more service than larger ones. This is mostly because large engines are not pushed as hard relative to the size because the buyers want a reliable engine. A tractor with a 600 horsepower engine would have around 19 liters. GM can get the same 600 horsepower out of 6 liters. I know motorcycle mechanics who can get that power from 1.5 liters. Of course the motorcycle mechanic will tell you upfront that you will have to completely rebuild the engine every 40 hours. GM knows that even though the engine can deliver 600 horsepower it will only do that for a few seconds and then have plenty of rest time at much lower power output to cool off as a result they can get several thousand miles. Tractor manufactures know that their customers will use 600 horsepower continuously all day, everyday with no breaks to cool down so they build for that spec. Point is I expect the engine in this car is designed to not be as reliable because of the weight/size vs reliability trade offs they can make. It you mostly use the car in electric mode with a few long trips it won't matter overall. If you typically take long trips (without stopping to recharge) get a car with a larger engine.
- MrQuincle 7y ago
  Last week I read that significant plastic is released in nature by tire wear. Electric cars are often heavier then their gasoline equivalents. I wouldn't be surprised if they wear faster and pollute more microplastics. [1] https://friendsoftheearth.uk/plastics/tyres-and-microplastics-time-reinvent-wheel https://friendsoftheearth.uk/plastics/tyres-and-microplastic...
  - MrQuincle 7y ago
    This I read by the way from the book "The hidden impact". There's a digital version in English on the website https://babetteporcelijn.com/en/ https://babetteporcelijn.com/en/. It has a lot of data that tries to help people to make sustainable impact that matters. Note that I'm not against electric cars at all. I'm only talking about pollution of microplastics. Not pollution in general. Of course it's hard to tell if people downvote because they disagree with me or because there are actually falsehoods in my comment. If it's the latter it's either: 1) electric cars are not heavier, or 2) tire wear due to additional weight is neglectable. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps it's my filter bubble, but I only find articles that support my statement [2]. I quote: "For energy use, the weight is less of a problem than for gasoline cars. They waste the increased energy used to accelerate the higher weight. But the momentum of an electric car lets you return energy to the battery as the car slows. The heavier the car, the more energy it takes to accelerate—but the more you return to the battery commensurately through regenerative braking. Of course, if you pay six figures for a high-performance electric car (think Tesla Model S P100D) and use its capabilities, you should expect to replace your very expensive low-profile tires every 15,000 miles or so. That's par for the segment." [2] https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1122838_busting-7-of-the-most-common-myths-about-electric-cars https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1122838_busting-7-of-th...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- roel_v 7y ago
  Shrug Why would that be high? It seems to include the required yearly checkup, and a 450L brake change that wasn't necessary. My (diesel) BMW X3 cost a little bit more than his car to buy, and I expect to average the same maintenance costs over say 5 years (his car was second hand when he bought it, too). BMW official dealerships are quite expensive, what you get for it are exact quotes within minutes on the phone, reliable planning and always new, OEM parts. Whether that's worth the money is for everyone to decide for themselves, but I don't think this is 'golden car' territory by a long shot.
  - ac29 7y ago
    Perhaps its not expensive for a BMW, but I've spent well under $1000 over ~4 years on maintaining my car in the US, including all manufacturer suggested maintenance and a new set of 4 tires. That's retail cost - I did none of the work myself.
- tibbon 7y ago
  While motorcycles and cars aren't the same; I've found tires for them are really expensive. I can get about 3000-10000 miles on a set, and the sets are $450 installed. There's cheaper tires out there, but good tires are a safety feature on them really and make a huge difference. I always bought really cheap tires on my really cheap clunker cars and never knew the difference. I wonder if it's just volume of cheaper tires, or if expensive rubber is just more expensive?
  - stanski 7y ago
    I think it's just volume. But yeah it's a pain - they go relatively quick and they cost a ton. It's hard to skimp on safety though, especially if you don't only ride on dry and warm days.
  - bumby 7y ago
    In addition to the economy of mass production on car tires, motorcycle tires are engineered differently. For example, they are generally higher performance tires with a different contact footprint because the handling dynamics of a motorcycle mean a tire 'leans' into a turn. Similarly, heavy duty truck tires are more expensive as they have more engineering requirements.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    Motorcycle BHP per tonne, and tyre contact patch explain most of a back tyre's life. The contact patch and lean alone for the front. Counter steering has to be rougher on tyre life. Buy a 400BHP+ Ferrari or 911 and you can get car tyre life right down to similar levels. They'll now be $300-$500+ a corner for being super wide, super low profile, sticky things. $2,000 in tyres every service... A sporty V8 of a couple of decades ago could easily give 6k miles front, 3k back. With higher powers now, who knows. If you could get really cheap clunker type rubber for those cars, you'd probably be just a few miles from wrapping it round a lamp post. First time you press the loud pedal with enthusiasm most likely. :)
- bumby 7y ago
  Also keep in mind that BMWs are notoriously expensive on maintenance compared to many other cars.[0] Around where I live, it's easy to find some relatively inexpensive used BMWs when people want to unload them due to high maintenance costs. [0] https://www.consumerreports.org/car-maintenance/the-cost-of-car-ownership/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-maintenance/the-cost-of-...
  - avar 7y ago
    The article we're discussing is talking about BMW in the UK. Your link is to US-based consumer reports. I wouldn't trust anything about BMW or other premium German brands from a US source as an EU customer, because: 1) US (and Canadian, Australian, Malaysian) fuel is of much lower quality, and BMW engines are notoriously sensitive to this. As an example, the BMW I own wasn't ever sold in North America or these other markets because of the high sulfur content in the fuel. 2) US consumers who buy BMW are going to have a selection bias towards people buying muscle cars. You're not just looking at reliability numbers, but numbers skewed by Americans who'd buy a foreign luxury vehicle with a powerful engine. 3) BMW is fickle about its maintenance requirements, and generally the further you get away from Germany the worse your quality of maintenance and ability to source genuine parts easily is going to be. BMW is still pretty bad when it comes to total cost of ownership, but this German study of vehicles on EU roads shows it isn't quite that bad: https://europe.jdpower.com/de/press-releases/2019-germany-vehicle-dependability-study https://europe.jdpower.com/de/press-releases/2019-germany-ve...
    - ac29 7y ago
      > US (and Canadian, Australian, Malaysian) fuel is of much lower quality, and BMW engines are notoriously sensitive to this. As an example, the BMW I own wasn't ever sold in North America or these other markets because of the high sulfur content in the fuel. This hasnt been true in a long time, at least with regards to sulfur. Current US regulations limit sulfur to 15 ppm [0], EU limits to 10 ppm [1]. Compared to the 1990s and earlier, when it could be as much as several thousand ppm in both the US and Europe, sulfur has been nearly eliminated in current diesel fuels (for road use, at least). [0] https://www.epa.gov/diesel-fuel-standards/diesel-fuel-standards-and-rulemakings https://www.epa.gov/diesel-fuel-standards/diesel-fuel-standa... [1] https://www.transportpolicy.net/standard/eu-fuels-diesel-and-gasoline/ https://www.transportpolicy.net/standard/eu-fuels-diesel-and...
jcims 7y ago
Site getting hugged. https://web.archive.org/web/20190828121621/https://tomkiss.net/life/cost_of_owning_a_bmw_i3 https://web.archive.org/web/20190828121621/https://tomkiss.n...
thinkcontext 7y ago
It's worth mentioning, at 10k miles per year this driver is significantly above the UK average of 7k. EVs are more advantageous the more they are driven, anyone buying one should do the math for their expected mileage.
- czbond 7y ago
  Thank you for posting that. If they are in the US, 10k is considered low mileage per year. For working age adults, 18k is considered average. Source: Bc I'll be asked ;) https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm
  - antidaily 7y ago
    Wow. 18k is nuts. 50 miles a day? We lowered our last lease to 10k and wont even be close at end of the year.
    - Ididntdothis 7y ago
      Since I have moved to LA 20000 per year is nothing. It’s nuts and costs a lot of money.
    - archi42 7y ago
      I think there are two things at play here: 1. The US is much larger than the UK, with a lot of nothing/low population density. 2. Mentality might be different: I imported my current car used from the Netherlands; the country is tiny, but the Dutch seem really like driving a lot. I saw many cars with 30k miles per year on them.
      - benjymo 7y ago
        Do people in the US really drive to through the country that often? I guess people drive maybe 2000-3000 km a year for holidays, e.g. to skiing resorts in winter or to Italy in summer, but even that isn't average. I'd say most of the drives are commutes to work and shopping.
GrumpyNl 7y ago
site unavailable
peterwwillis 7y ago
TCO is supposed to include the total cost; buy a car that didn't cost 17,400 and your price goes down considerably. Cost of car: 17,400 Fuel: 712.99 Maintenance: 3,056.08 Other: 940 TCO over 3 years: 22,108 Buy a 5,000 used car, and your 3-year TCO goes down to 9,708. But that's gonna be gas powered, so you have to lower the maintenance and raise the insurance and gas. And higher cost per mile means the amount of miles you drive matters more.
- stanski 7y ago
  Minus the 11 grand for selling it after, no?
  - peterwwillis 7y ago
    I don't think that's a useful measure. You really don't know what, if anything at all, you will get back after 3 years. If you total your car and you have good insurance, you might get reimbursed its remaining value, which might be about market, or nothing. If you have a loan out on the car, better hope it didn't depreciate faster than the loan payment takes, or you take a loss. Or maybe you don't total it, sell it privately, and get more than on a trade-in. You don't know what the market will bear, you don't even know if you'll have ended up with a lemon. But even if you do get money back at the end, how old it is, whether its insurance or maintenance costs more, etc will all affect sales later. I think purchasing a car with an expectation to regain value is gambling. I'd prefer to buy something I'll drive into the dirt, whether used or new, for a more certain financial outcome.
Gravityloss 7y ago
Too bad, AFAIK, the i3 REX (with range extender gasoline engine) is hobbled by a tiny gasoline tank. The total range is something like 200 km: 100 electric and 100 gasoline. With my current car I can drive to the summer cottage and back with one tank. It's just carefree and convenient. With an i3, even when starting with full charge, one would have to tank about halfway each way. It is hard for me to understand such design decisions. I have heard that in some countries the gasoline range must be less than electric range to secure some tax credit. Edit: Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3 REx 60 Ah: 116 km (72 mi), Total: 241 km (150 mi) REx 94 Ah: 156 km (97 mi), Total: 290 km (180 mi)[12]
- ddorian43 7y ago
  ... how far is your summer cottage ?
  - Gravityloss 7y ago
    300 km or 200 miles. Usually weekend trips.
- natefinch 7y ago
  I mean, you can get a Tesla Model 3 long range for $47k that goes 310 miles on a charge and gains 200 miles on a half hour recharge at a supercharger. That seems... like more driving than I'd really ever do. (half hour is super easy to blow when you go pee, grab a coffee, check your email and social media... and keep in mind that's after like 4 hours of driving)
  - Gravityloss 7y ago
    Sounds better. But it's so expensive. You can get a used i3 for 20k euros though. And I street park so the ICE is a good backup.
    - matthewdgreen 7y ago
      The i3 starts at $44,450 new, which is almost exactly the same as the Tesla Model 3 LR. I guess it's nice for consumers that there are used i3s out there (probably will be true of Tesla in a few years) but from a business perspective, selling the i3 just seems like a crazy proposition.
mathieubordere 7y ago
typo in title: owing --> owning
api 7y ago
I recently got a used Leaf with about 70mi range for around $7000 (total cost including fees, tax, etc.). It's extremely low maintenance (no ICE at all) and while I haven't done math in this detail yet the "fuel" price even at California's higher electricity rates is less than half the cost of gasoline per mile driven. Once you factor in the relative lack of maintenance it's much cheaper to operate than an ICE. Overall if you don't need really long range a used Leaf is a great deal. You can get them in virtually mint condition for under $10k. Just be sure to research and check out battery health. There's an Android app called LeafSpy that will use a Bluetooth ODBII dongle (these are cheap) and can query lots of detailed battery info so you can check out battery health after buying. Mine was about average in terms of capacity loss for its age and it gets around 70 miles per charge without issue. Also note that the Leaf's mileage estimate tends to be a little pessimistic, at least in my experience. My guess is that it's designed this way to avoid stranding the driver. Gas cars are often a little pessimistic too for the same reason. They give you a bit of a reserve.
- tres 7y ago
  What's more, many of the Leafs are still under factory warranty when they're sold for a fraction of their new MSRP. I bought my 2011 Leaf when it was just about three years old and had somewhere in the neighborhood of 22k miles on it and paid somewhere around $6k. I figured it was a pretty safe buy because the car still had plenty of miles left on the warranty. I never had to make use of that warranty though; truly the best fit & finish of any car I've owned. Reliable & by far the best value of any car I've ever purchased. After eight years, capacity is running down... somewhere around 40 miles per charge in the summer now... but that's perfect for my use-case. I'm looking forward to many more years with minimal maintenance costs. Once the battery capacity gets low enough, I'll spring for a new battery.
  - api 7y ago
    There are companies working on aftermarket battery upgrades. There's one that has a module that lets you put a newer 40kWh battery in an old Leaf. Such batteries can be purchased from junked/totaled Leafs. There's another out there working on some kind of emulated battery module. Neither of these are quite ready yet but the market is there so I assume such upgrades are coming.
rkochman 7y ago
The title should be “Cost of owning a bad electric car (that is actually a hybrid car)”
lazyjones 7y ago
Their i3 isn't even an electric car, it's a hybrid with a petrol engine (range extender). The title claims the content is somehow about electric cars in general, but it's just one datapoint about one model and one owner. FWIW, my maintenance costs for almost 3 years with a Tesla S90D were so far: €290 for changing and storing winter tires. No repairs, no breakdowns so far, despite some abuse on italian country roads. Yearly cost for insurance and (0) tax was half as much as the 530xd I owned previously.
- brohee 7y ago
  The lastest version has a bigger battery and doesn't offer the range extender IIRC.
  - lazyjones 7y ago
    Yes, they stopped selling the REX. The i3 is still not a very attractive car for me and despite the good crash test results, it doesn't look safe to me. Here's the aftermath of a frontal crash vs. an old Cadillac that happened recently - both drivers dead: https://image.kurier.at/images/cfs_landscape_1864w_1049h/3728840/46-148583623.jpg https://image.kurier.at/images/cfs_landscape_1864w_1049h/372...
    - pintxo 7y ago
      This [1] seems to be the report including photos you are talking about. Not sure which image you linked here. Totally different story. [1] https://insideevs.com/news/328403/bmw-i3-vs-cadillac-cts-impact-results/ https://insideevs.com/news/328403/bmw-i3-vs-cadillac-cts-imp...
      - lazyjones 7y ago
        > This [1] seems to be the report including photos you are talking about. No, you guessed wrong. The crash I mentioned happened 2 days ago: https://kurier.at/chronik/niederoesterreich/zwei-tote-in-moellersdorf-vor-unfall-gab-es-polizeieinsatz-bei-lenker/400588361 https://kurier.at/chronik/niederoesterreich/zwei-tote-in-moe... I don't know why you bring up an old rear-ending when I mention a frontal crash...
williesleg 7y ago
Tesla model 3 owner, 14k miles. Just rotated the tires, that's all. I guess I need to have the battery coolant changed in 2 years. Electricity cost is 1/3 of my gasoline cost for the same commute. Probably have to do the brakes after 100k miles. I rarely use them, the Regen is fantastic! Best car ever.
brightball 7y ago
I owned 2 different Chevy Volt's for a total of 5 years. The maintenance was normal tire wear. Aside from that, oil needed to be changed every 20,000 miles. I never ran into a single maintenance issue other than the standard. It was the lowest maintenance vehicle I've ever owned.
Bedon292 7y ago
I think this might have been posted here before, but think this is an interesting comparison as well: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/22/toyota-corolla-vs-tesla-model-3-5-year-cost-comparison/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/22/toyota-corolla-vs-tesla... It is US centric though, so not a perfect comparison. So far I have had no issues with my 3. $115 for tire rotation and state inspection is the only thing I have spent any money on so far in 15 months and over 20,000 miles. So that is less than $10/month in maintenance. And I am spending about half as much in electricity as I was for gas. The insurance was a big jump from a 2011 Ford Focus, but that car has cost significantly more to maintain in the same time frame.

40 points by d3k 7y ago

davidbanham 7y ago

I wonder why he's getting rid of the vehicle.

topbanana 7y ago
Three year leases are common in the UK
- djmobley 7y ago
  OP says he bought the car privately.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
It's a one car household. He's probably going back to something that has a more practical form factor i.e. another 4-door station wagon (a 4dr hatch is a small station wagon, change my mind) of similar footprint. The i3 is heavily optimized to be a city commuter car. It's not optimized to be a multi-tool Or his wife (page isn't loading anymore but IIRC he used a bunch of language implying he has a >1 person household) has one in the oven and they're doing what every upper middle class couple does when that happens, buying a crossover.

lnsru 7y ago

Very detailed writing, thank you! But this “Costs for maintenance totalled £3056.0” is shocking! It’s a golden car! Ok, it has internal combustion engine too, but 100€ maintenance monthly is shocking. 8 tires for 45000 km is also shocking. I am driving almost double that with one set (except nasty flats). Are other electric cars cheaper to drive?

geerlingguy 7y ago
He mentioned the tires are a very specific size only really available from one source, and that they are narrower than a typical tire. I’m guessing that means reduced tread life, and not having options means it’s probably harder to find the perfect tire for your climate and region to optimize longevity. I agree, though; I can usually get the same range out of one set of tires.
- peterwwillis 7y ago
  You don't have to stick to the OEM tire. You can get a different, cheaper size, as long as it doesn't rub the wheel well or bottom out. And the exact tire and manufacturer you get, along with the conditions it was kept in, will determine the wear life of the tire. And when people complain about their tires wearing fast, it's often just badly aligned tires that could be fixed by going to a better mechanic. And buying tires online or from a warehouse is always cheaper, often by a lot. So just because you have a certain kind of car doesn't mean you will always have the same tire wear or cost.
  - gambiting 7y ago
    >>You can get a different, cheaper size, as long as it doesn't rub the wheel well or bottom out. In the UK you have to tell your insurer if you do that and it can impact your insurance significantly in some cases. The best one I could find was with Aviva they allow 10mm variation in width of the tyre from the manufacturer spec, so if the original size was 225/45 you could buy 235/45 or 215/45, but anything beyond that would require you telling them and have an impact on your premium. Chaging the rims to a different size always requires telling the insurer, even if they are the manufacturer's original rims(which is incredibly dumb, I bought my car with factory 20" wheels, I bought an original set of wheels directly from the dealership in 19" size but I still have to tell my insurer because it's a "modification" to the factory spec of the vehicle).
    - peterwwillis 7y ago
      Why would you tell your insurer? They don't go around checking tire widths, afaik
      - gambiting 7y ago
        Because if you have an accident and they find out you had tyres/rims different from stock they will absolutely either refuse to pay out the claim or reduce it significantly. Especially if you put on tyres of a different size than that approved by the manfucaturer, they can very easily say that a tyre that is too narrow/too wide affects how the car handles and it would have contributed to the accident.
kozak 7y ago
i3 tire are notoriously expensive. People call them "bicycle tires" as they are large in diameter and very narrow, and they also have different sizes back and front.
archi42 7y ago
400 of that was for the brake replacement, and the remaining 2600 sound pretty normal these days (if you're going to a manufacturer contracted garage instead of some 3rd party garage). Remember there is still an ICE for range extension, and the inspection checklists probably doesn't care whether you used the ICE virtually never or all the time. As for tires, my hybrid seems better and also takes pretty much any manufacturers tires (19/235 summer, 17/235 winter - can't say anything detailed about durability regarding my driving since I only have it since April this year, but the previous owner seemed to make about 40000km per set), but the i3 tires seem to be purpose build, so less quantity (more expensive) and MAYBE focused much more on efficiency over durability. Also 45k miles, not km? (Link is down now, so can't check). (some editing)
- lnsru 7y ago
  Sadly km or ~900 miles per month. Engine inside is small one from motorcycle, so it shouldn’t be hard to service. I was considering buying i3, but went for 328i.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    Small engines generally need more service than larger ones. This is mostly because large engines are not pushed as hard relative to the size because the buyers want a reliable engine. A tractor with a 600 horsepower engine would have around 19 liters. GM can get the same 600 horsepower out of 6 liters. I know motorcycle mechanics who can get that power from 1.5 liters. Of course the motorcycle mechanic will tell you upfront that you will have to completely rebuild the engine every 40 hours. GM knows that even though the engine can deliver 600 horsepower it will only do that for a few seconds and then have plenty of rest time at much lower power output to cool off as a result they can get several thousand miles. Tractor manufactures know that their customers will use 600 horsepower continuously all day, everyday with no breaks to cool down so they build for that spec. Point is I expect the engine in this car is designed to not be as reliable because of the weight/size vs reliability trade offs they can make. It you mostly use the car in electric mode with a few long trips it won't matter overall. If you typically take long trips (without stopping to recharge) get a car with a larger engine.
MrQuincle 7y ago
Last week I read that significant plastic is released in nature by tire wear. Electric cars are often heavier then their gasoline equivalents. I wouldn't be surprised if they wear faster and pollute more microplastics. [1] https://friendsoftheearth.uk/plastics/tyres-and-microplastics-time-reinvent-wheel https://friendsoftheearth.uk/plastics/tyres-and-microplastic...
- MrQuincle 7y ago
  This I read by the way from the book "The hidden impact". There's a digital version in English on the website https://babetteporcelijn.com/en/ https://babetteporcelijn.com/en/. It has a lot of data that tries to help people to make sustainable impact that matters. Note that I'm not against electric cars at all. I'm only talking about pollution of microplastics. Not pollution in general. Of course it's hard to tell if people downvote because they disagree with me or because there are actually falsehoods in my comment. If it's the latter it's either: 1) electric cars are not heavier, or 2) tire wear due to additional weight is neglectable. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps it's my filter bubble, but I only find articles that support my statement [2]. I quote: "For energy use, the weight is less of a problem than for gasoline cars. They waste the increased energy used to accelerate the higher weight. But the momentum of an electric car lets you return energy to the battery as the car slows. The heavier the car, the more energy it takes to accelerate—but the more you return to the battery commensurately through regenerative braking. Of course, if you pay six figures for a high-performance electric car (think Tesla Model S P100D) and use its capabilities, you should expect to replace your very expensive low-profile tires every 15,000 miles or so. That's par for the segment." [2] https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1122838_busting-7-of-the-most-common-myths-about-electric-cars https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1122838_busting-7-of-th...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
roel_v 7y ago
Shrug Why would that be high? It seems to include the required yearly checkup, and a 450L brake change that wasn't necessary. My (diesel) BMW X3 cost a little bit more than his car to buy, and I expect to average the same maintenance costs over say 5 years (his car was second hand when he bought it, too). BMW official dealerships are quite expensive, what you get for it are exact quotes within minutes on the phone, reliable planning and always new, OEM parts. Whether that's worth the money is for everyone to decide for themselves, but I don't think this is 'golden car' territory by a long shot.
- ac29 7y ago
  Perhaps its not expensive for a BMW, but I've spent well under $1000 over ~4 years on maintaining my car in the US, including all manufacturer suggested maintenance and a new set of 4 tires. That's retail cost - I did none of the work myself.
tibbon 7y ago
While motorcycles and cars aren't the same; I've found tires for them are really expensive. I can get about 3000-10000 miles on a set, and the sets are $450 installed. There's cheaper tires out there, but good tires are a safety feature on them really and make a huge difference. I always bought really cheap tires on my really cheap clunker cars and never knew the difference. I wonder if it's just volume of cheaper tires, or if expensive rubber is just more expensive?
- stanski 7y ago
  I think it's just volume. But yeah it's a pain - they go relatively quick and they cost a ton. It's hard to skimp on safety though, especially if you don't only ride on dry and warm days.
- bumby 7y ago
  In addition to the economy of mass production on car tires, motorcycle tires are engineered differently. For example, they are generally higher performance tires with a different contact footprint because the handling dynamics of a motorcycle mean a tire 'leans' into a turn. Similarly, heavy duty truck tires are more expensive as they have more engineering requirements.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  Motorcycle BHP per tonne, and tyre contact patch explain most of a back tyre's life. The contact patch and lean alone for the front. Counter steering has to be rougher on tyre life. Buy a 400BHP+ Ferrari or 911 and you can get car tyre life right down to similar levels. They'll now be $300-$500+ a corner for being super wide, super low profile, sticky things. $2,000 in tyres every service... A sporty V8 of a couple of decades ago could easily give 6k miles front, 3k back. With higher powers now, who knows. If you could get really cheap clunker type rubber for those cars, you'd probably be just a few miles from wrapping it round a lamp post. First time you press the loud pedal with enthusiasm most likely. :)
bumby 7y ago
Also keep in mind that BMWs are notoriously expensive on maintenance compared to many other cars.[0] Around where I live, it's easy to find some relatively inexpensive used BMWs when people want to unload them due to high maintenance costs. [0] https://www.consumerreports.org/car-maintenance/the-cost-of-car-ownership/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-maintenance/the-cost-of-...
- avar 7y ago
  The article we're discussing is talking about BMW in the UK. Your link is to US-based consumer reports. I wouldn't trust anything about BMW or other premium German brands from a US source as an EU customer, because: 1) US (and Canadian, Australian, Malaysian) fuel is of much lower quality, and BMW engines are notoriously sensitive to this. As an example, the BMW I own wasn't ever sold in North America or these other markets because of the high sulfur content in the fuel. 2) US consumers who buy BMW are going to have a selection bias towards people buying muscle cars. You're not just looking at reliability numbers, but numbers skewed by Americans who'd buy a foreign luxury vehicle with a powerful engine. 3) BMW is fickle about its maintenance requirements, and generally the further you get away from Germany the worse your quality of maintenance and ability to source genuine parts easily is going to be. BMW is still pretty bad when it comes to total cost of ownership, but this German study of vehicles on EU roads shows it isn't quite that bad: https://europe.jdpower.com/de/press-releases/2019-germany-vehicle-dependability-study https://europe.jdpower.com/de/press-releases/2019-germany-ve...
  - ac29 7y ago
    > US (and Canadian, Australian, Malaysian) fuel is of much lower quality, and BMW engines are notoriously sensitive to this. As an example, the BMW I own wasn't ever sold in North America or these other markets because of the high sulfur content in the fuel. This hasnt been true in a long time, at least with regards to sulfur. Current US regulations limit sulfur to 15 ppm [0], EU limits to 10 ppm [1]. Compared to the 1990s and earlier, when it could be as much as several thousand ppm in both the US and Europe, sulfur has been nearly eliminated in current diesel fuels (for road use, at least). [0] https://www.epa.gov/diesel-fuel-standards/diesel-fuel-standards-and-rulemakings https://www.epa.gov/diesel-fuel-standards/diesel-fuel-standa... [1] https://www.transportpolicy.net/standard/eu-fuels-diesel-and-gasoline/ https://www.transportpolicy.net/standard/eu-fuels-diesel-and...

jcims 7y ago

Site getting hugged. https://web.archive.org/web/20190828121621/https://tomkiss.net/life/cost_of_owning_a_bmw_i3 https://web.archive.org/web/20190828121621/https://tomkiss.n...

thinkcontext 7y ago

It's worth mentioning, at 10k miles per year this driver is significantly above the UK average of 7k. EVs are more advantageous the more they are driven, anyone buying one should do the math for their expected mileage.

czbond 7y ago
Thank you for posting that. If they are in the US, 10k is considered low mileage per year. For working age adults, 18k is considered average. Source: Bc I'll be asked ;) https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm
- antidaily 7y ago
  Wow. 18k is nuts. 50 miles a day? We lowered our last lease to 10k and wont even be close at end of the year.
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    Since I have moved to LA 20000 per year is nothing. It’s nuts and costs a lot of money.
  - archi42 7y ago
    I think there are two things at play here: 1. The US is much larger than the UK, with a lot of nothing/low population density. 2. Mentality might be different: I imported my current car used from the Netherlands; the country is tiny, but the Dutch seem really like driving a lot. I saw many cars with 30k miles per year on them.
    - benjymo 7y ago
      Do people in the US really drive to through the country that often? I guess people drive maybe 2000-3000 km a year for holidays, e.g. to skiing resorts in winter or to Italy in summer, but even that isn't average. I'd say most of the drives are commutes to work and shopping.

GrumpyNl 7y ago

site unavailable

peterwwillis 7y ago

TCO is supposed to include the total cost; buy a car that didn't cost 17,400 and your price goes down considerably. Cost of car: 17,400 Fuel: 712.99 Maintenance: 3,056.08 Other: 940 TCO over 3 years: 22,108 Buy a 5,000 used car, and your 3-year TCO goes down to 9,708. But that's gonna be gas powered, so you have to lower the maintenance and raise the insurance and gas. And higher cost per mile means the amount of miles you drive matters more.

stanski 7y ago
Minus the 11 grand for selling it after, no?
- peterwwillis 7y ago
  I don't think that's a useful measure. You really don't know what, if anything at all, you will get back after 3 years. If you total your car and you have good insurance, you might get reimbursed its remaining value, which might be about market, or nothing. If you have a loan out on the car, better hope it didn't depreciate faster than the loan payment takes, or you take a loss. Or maybe you don't total it, sell it privately, and get more than on a trade-in. You don't know what the market will bear, you don't even know if you'll have ended up with a lemon. But even if you do get money back at the end, how old it is, whether its insurance or maintenance costs more, etc will all affect sales later. I think purchasing a car with an expectation to regain value is gambling. I'd prefer to buy something I'll drive into the dirt, whether used or new, for a more certain financial outcome.

Gravityloss 7y ago

Too bad, AFAIK, the i3 REX (with range extender gasoline engine) is hobbled by a tiny gasoline tank. The total range is something like 200 km: 100 electric and 100 gasoline. With my current car I can drive to the summer cottage and back with one tank. It's just carefree and convenient. With an i3, even when starting with full charge, one would have to tank about halfway each way. It is hard for me to understand such design decisions. I have heard that in some countries the gasoline range must be less than electric range to secure some tax credit. Edit: Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3 REx 60 Ah: 116 km (72 mi), Total: 241 km (150 mi) REx 94 Ah: 156 km (97 mi), Total: 290 km (180 mi)[12]

ddorian43 7y ago
... how far is your summer cottage ?
- Gravityloss 7y ago
  300 km or 200 miles. Usually weekend trips.
natefinch 7y ago
I mean, you can get a Tesla Model 3 long range for $47k that goes 310 miles on a charge and gains 200 miles on a half hour recharge at a supercharger. That seems... like more driving than I'd really ever do. (half hour is super easy to blow when you go pee, grab a coffee, check your email and social media... and keep in mind that's after like 4 hours of driving)
- Gravityloss 7y ago
  Sounds better. But it's so expensive. You can get a used i3 for 20k euros though. And I street park so the ICE is a good backup.
  - matthewdgreen 7y ago
    The i3 starts at $44,450 new, which is almost exactly the same as the Tesla Model 3 LR. I guess it's nice for consumers that there are used i3s out there (probably will be true of Tesla in a few years) but from a business perspective, selling the i3 just seems like a crazy proposition.

mathieubordere 7y ago

typo in title: owing --> owning

api 7y ago

I recently got a used Leaf with about 70mi range for around $7000 (total cost including fees, tax, etc.). It's extremely low maintenance (no ICE at all) and while I haven't done math in this detail yet the "fuel" price even at California's higher electricity rates is less than half the cost of gasoline per mile driven. Once you factor in the relative lack of maintenance it's much cheaper to operate than an ICE. Overall if you don't need really long range a used Leaf is a great deal. You can get them in virtually mint condition for under $10k. Just be sure to research and check out battery health. There's an Android app called LeafSpy that will use a Bluetooth ODBII dongle (these are cheap) and can query lots of detailed battery info so you can check out battery health after buying. Mine was about average in terms of capacity loss for its age and it gets around 70 miles per charge without issue. Also note that the Leaf's mileage estimate tends to be a little pessimistic, at least in my experience. My guess is that it's designed this way to avoid stranding the driver. Gas cars are often a little pessimistic too for the same reason. They give you a bit of a reserve.

tres 7y ago
What's more, many of the Leafs are still under factory warranty when they're sold for a fraction of their new MSRP. I bought my 2011 Leaf when it was just about three years old and had somewhere in the neighborhood of 22k miles on it and paid somewhere around $6k. I figured it was a pretty safe buy because the car still had plenty of miles left on the warranty. I never had to make use of that warranty though; truly the best fit & finish of any car I've owned. Reliable & by far the best value of any car I've ever purchased. After eight years, capacity is running down... somewhere around 40 miles per charge in the summer now... but that's perfect for my use-case. I'm looking forward to many more years with minimal maintenance costs. Once the battery capacity gets low enough, I'll spring for a new battery.
- api 7y ago
  There are companies working on aftermarket battery upgrades. There's one that has a module that lets you put a newer 40kWh battery in an old Leaf. Such batteries can be purchased from junked/totaled Leafs. There's another out there working on some kind of emulated battery module. Neither of these are quite ready yet but the market is there so I assume such upgrades are coming.

rkochman 7y ago

The title should be “Cost of owning a bad electric car (that is actually a hybrid car)”

lazyjones 7y ago

Their i3 isn't even an electric car, it's a hybrid with a petrol engine (range extender). The title claims the content is somehow about electric cars in general, but it's just one datapoint about one model and one owner. FWIW, my maintenance costs for almost 3 years with a Tesla S90D were so far: €290 for changing and storing winter tires. No repairs, no breakdowns so far, despite some abuse on italian country roads. Yearly cost for insurance and (0) tax was half as much as the 530xd I owned previously.

brohee 7y ago
The lastest version has a bigger battery and doesn't offer the range extender IIRC.
- lazyjones 7y ago
  Yes, they stopped selling the REX. The i3 is still not a very attractive car for me and despite the good crash test results, it doesn't look safe to me. Here's the aftermath of a frontal crash vs. an old Cadillac that happened recently - both drivers dead: https://image.kurier.at/images/cfs_landscape_1864w_1049h/3728840/46-148583623.jpg https://image.kurier.at/images/cfs_landscape_1864w_1049h/372...
  - pintxo 7y ago
    This [1] seems to be the report including photos you are talking about. Not sure which image you linked here. Totally different story. [1] https://insideevs.com/news/328403/bmw-i3-vs-cadillac-cts-impact-results/ https://insideevs.com/news/328403/bmw-i3-vs-cadillac-cts-imp...
    - lazyjones 7y ago
      > This [1] seems to be the report including photos you are talking about. No, you guessed wrong. The crash I mentioned happened 2 days ago: https://kurier.at/chronik/niederoesterreich/zwei-tote-in-moellersdorf-vor-unfall-gab-es-polizeieinsatz-bei-lenker/400588361 https://kurier.at/chronik/niederoesterreich/zwei-tote-in-moe... I don't know why you bring up an old rear-ending when I mention a frontal crash...

williesleg 7y ago

Tesla model 3 owner, 14k miles. Just rotated the tires, that's all. I guess I need to have the battery coolant changed in 2 years. Electricity cost is 1/3 of my gasoline cost for the same commute. Probably have to do the brakes after 100k miles. I rarely use them, the Regen is fantastic! Best car ever.

brightball 7y ago

I owned 2 different Chevy Volt's for a total of 5 years. The maintenance was normal tire wear. Aside from that, oil needed to be changed every 20,000 miles. I never ran into a single maintenance issue other than the standard. It was the lowest maintenance vehicle I've ever owned.

Bedon292 7y ago

I think this might have been posted here before, but think this is an interesting comparison as well: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/22/toyota-corolla-vs-tesla-model-3-5-year-cost-comparison/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/22/toyota-corolla-vs-tesla... It is US centric though, so not a perfect comparison. So far I have had no issues with my 3. $115 for tire rotation and state inspection is the only thing I have spent any money on so far in 15 months and over 20,000 miles. So that is less than $10/month in maintenance. And I am spending about half as much in electricity as I was for gas. The insurance was a big jump from a 2011 Ford Focus, but that car has cost significantly more to maintain in the same time frame.