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> Power saving is great, except when it breaks apps. That's a problem. > Pandora-like web app that plays music. When my app is in the background and the curre

> Power saving is great, except when it breaks apps. That's a problem. > Pandora-like web app that plays music. When my app is in the background and the current song ends, it won't play the next song because iOS has suspended Javascript execution in the name of power saving. I think that's intended. I would argue that you are misusing the web. I would argue that most users don't want websites to run while the browser isn't in the foreground. If you want to elevate your capability to interact with the user while in the background then build and install a native app or leverage existing native apps' functionalities. > When my app is in the background and the current song ends, it won't play the next song because iOS has suspended Javascript execution in the name of power saving. The event handler never fires when my app is the in background or when the screen is off, thus, I can't play the next song. That's good. I don't want garbage in the background to do anything javascript-related at all. > This effectively makes it impossible to build a functioning audio app/radio station on iOS using web technologies. Really? There are plenty of audio/radio apps on iOS using native technologies. You're trying to shoehorn something to do something it wasn't intended and then causing noise because it doesn't do what it wasn't intended. > I've reported this issue to Apple some 2 years ago, but they still haven't fixed it. What bug? You think this is a problem caused by power saving? No, it's not. You've already stated that the song is playing until it ends, but that your javascript doesn't get notified that it ended. You think the problem is that power saving is stopping you from processing the next song to play. I disagree. I think the problem is that you aren't providing a play list to the browser. Frankly, I'm not a web developer so I don't even know if there is a playlist API. But if there isn't, then that is your problem. A playlist would be a hell of a lot cheaper than trying to run arbitrary javascript.

Scoundreller 7y ago
> then build and install a native app or leverage existing native apps' functionalities. Personally, I trust my browser a lot more than any native app. I cringe every time I'm forced to use a native app when the browser would do.
marmada 7y ago
I'm pretty sure your comment misunderstands the original comment, and even if it didn't, it is rather aggressive. Why are web-technologies suddenly inferior to native technologies? Maybe I want my playlist to be accessible through a website from all my devices instead of having to download a native app on each device. The company saves money/releases an app that would otherwise never have existed, and I get to use a service in a consistent manner across all platforms. Oh, and web-apps are more secure because they have less permissions than a regular app. The author of the comment said web-app. That probably means a progressive web-app. This means there is an icon for the web-app on the home screen (like a normal app) and the user interacts with it, like a normal app, although in reality, everything is being handled by the browser behind the scenes. > Progressive Web Apps are installable and live on the user's home screen, without the need for an app store. They offer an immersive full screen experience with help from a web app manifest file and can even re-engage users with web push notifications. I would argue that in this case it makes sense for the progressive web app to have all the capabilities of a native app since that's what it looks like to the user. Of course, if by web-app, the author means "a tab inside Safari browser", then the behavior is logical and your comment makes sense, we wouldn't want Safari to churn through iOS battery. > That's good. I don't want garbage in the background to do anything javascript-related at all. Why is "javascript-related" garbage better or worse than native-related garbage? Arguably, "native-related" garbage is worse because it can do more to your phone than "javascript-related garbage".
- saagarjha 7y ago
  > The author of the comment said web-app. That probably means a progressive web-app. This means there is an icon for the web-app on the home screen (like a normal app) and the user interacts with it, like a normal app, although in reality, everything is being handled by the browser behind the scenes. Presumably the issue here is that there is no special case where a progressive web app can let the OS know that the content it's playing should count as background audio.
  - roguecoder 7y ago
    But there is no case where it should be up to a web app whether its content should count as background audio. It is possible that a user should be able to flag such a situation, but native apps both have affirmative consent when downloading an application and have permissions models the user can manage, whereas the web has neither and web browsers need to assume both malicious and incompetent web devs will do terrible things with any feature they allow.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
nitwit005 7y ago
> I would argue that you are misusing the web. It shouldn't matter. Even if auto-playing music is a terrible idea for most sites, there should be a way to ask the user for permission where it is reasonable. There has been some efforts to create a permissions API, which included MIDI devices (last time I checked), which might be able to support this: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Permissions_API https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Permissions... > You're trying to shoehorn something to do something it wasn't intended That applies to almost all web content. Even hacker news doesn't fall into the original document browsing usage.
- MR4D 7y ago
  > there should be a way to ask the user for permission where it is reasonable. Beware the law of unintended consequences - if you did that, every single add would pop up an annoying permission box. ( And before you say “no, ...” remember that there are more unscrupulous ad/malware companies that will prove you wrong. )
  - nitwit005 7y ago
    There are already a bunch of those pop ups that trigger when a script tries to access the microphone, USB, camera, etc. There just isn't any unified API for asking for permissions.
  - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
    I was working on a SPA that needed to ask location information to tell the user service outages in their area, we spent a lot of time optimizing the permissions asking flow, making sure we didn't ask too often etc. So I think companies with scruples, not malware oriented, or just possessed of good common sense will ask only when necessary.
bla3 7y ago
I certainly prefer using (efficient) webapps over actual apps.
bryanrasmussen 7y ago
There seems to be a large concerted effort to make the browser the platform of choice for building apps, I see arguments all the time that web apps can be made to do what native apps can do and so forth, and that even if there is a lag in the development of web apps that lag will be covered in time and the network effects and ease of discoverability of web apps will triumph (I am stuck for time here so I had to summarize various arguments I've seen, I suppose others have seen them as well) Your argument here is that there are classes of application that can never be built on the browser platform, based on you saying "You're trying to shoehorn something to do something it wasn't intended and then causing noise because it doesn't do what it wasn't intended." That argument may be correct, however then Apple should make an open statement saying hey, web apps just won't do it. Otherwise people might mistakenly hear the arguments that they will do it and think I will make a web app. And the people making the arguments for web apps should be hit about how do you handle getting the app to work in the background when it is something that absolutely needs to like a radio station.
judah 7y ago
>> I would argue that you are misusing the web What? I built a music player, like Pandora. How is that misusing the web? I don't want to build a native app. This is a side project for me - I don't have the time, resources, or desires to rebuild my app in proprietary technologies. > I don't want garbage running in the background If you're using my music player app, you absolutely want it running; otherwise the music stops. > There are plenty of audio/radio apps on iOS using native technologies I don't want proprietary native technologies, anymore than I want Flash or Silverlight. I want the open web. > A playlist would be a hell of a lot cheaper than trying to run arbitrary javascript. My app isn't a playlist. It's an app, akin to Pandora.

Scoundreller 7y ago

> then build and install a native app or leverage existing native apps' functionalities. Personally, I trust my browser a lot more than any native app. I cringe every time I'm forced to use a native app when the browser would do.

marmada 7y ago

I'm pretty sure your comment misunderstands the original comment, and even if it didn't, it is rather aggressive. Why are web-technologies suddenly inferior to native technologies? Maybe I want my playlist to be accessible through a website from all my devices instead of having to download a native app on each device. The company saves money/releases an app that would otherwise never have existed, and I get to use a service in a consistent manner across all platforms. Oh, and web-apps are more secure because they have less permissions than a regular app. The author of the comment said web-app. That probably means a progressive web-app. This means there is an icon for the web-app on the home screen (like a normal app) and the user interacts with it, like a normal app, although in reality, everything is being handled by the browser behind the scenes. > Progressive Web Apps are installable and live on the user's home screen, without the need for an app store. They offer an immersive full screen experience with help from a web app manifest file and can even re-engage users with web push notifications. I would argue that in this case it makes sense for the progressive web app to have all the capabilities of a native app since that's what it looks like to the user. Of course, if by web-app, the author means "a tab inside Safari browser", then the behavior is logical and your comment makes sense, we wouldn't want Safari to churn through iOS battery. > That's good. I don't want garbage in the background to do anything javascript-related at all. Why is "javascript-related" garbage better or worse than native-related garbage? Arguably, "native-related" garbage is worse because it can do more to your phone than "javascript-related garbage".

saagarjha 7y ago
> The author of the comment said web-app. That probably means a progressive web-app. This means there is an icon for the web-app on the home screen (like a normal app) and the user interacts with it, like a normal app, although in reality, everything is being handled by the browser behind the scenes. Presumably the issue here is that there is no special case where a progressive web app can let the OS know that the content it's playing should count as background audio.
- roguecoder 7y ago
  But there is no case where it should be up to a web app whether its content should count as background audio. It is possible that a user should be able to flag such a situation, but native apps both have affirmative consent when downloading an application and have permissions models the user can manage, whereas the web has neither and web browsers need to assume both malicious and incompetent web devs will do terrible things with any feature they allow.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

nitwit005 7y ago

> I would argue that you are misusing the web. It shouldn't matter. Even if auto-playing music is a terrible idea for most sites, there should be a way to ask the user for permission where it is reasonable. There has been some efforts to create a permissions API, which included MIDI devices (last time I checked), which might be able to support this: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Permissions_API https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Permissions... > You're trying to shoehorn something to do something it wasn't intended That applies to almost all web content. Even hacker news doesn't fall into the original document browsing usage.

MR4D 7y ago
> there should be a way to ask the user for permission where it is reasonable. Beware the law of unintended consequences - if you did that, every single add would pop up an annoying permission box. ( And before you say “no, ...” remember that there are more unscrupulous ad/malware companies that will prove you wrong. )
- nitwit005 7y ago
  There are already a bunch of those pop ups that trigger when a script tries to access the microphone, USB, camera, etc. There just isn't any unified API for asking for permissions.
- bryanrasmussen 7y ago
  I was working on a SPA that needed to ask location information to tell the user service outages in their area, we spent a lot of time optimizing the permissions asking flow, making sure we didn't ask too often etc. So I think companies with scruples, not malware oriented, or just possessed of good common sense will ask only when necessary.

bla3 7y ago

I certainly prefer using (efficient) webapps over actual apps.

bryanrasmussen 7y ago

There seems to be a large concerted effort to make the browser the platform of choice for building apps, I see arguments all the time that web apps can be made to do what native apps can do and so forth, and that even if there is a lag in the development of web apps that lag will be covered in time and the network effects and ease of discoverability of web apps will triumph (I am stuck for time here so I had to summarize various arguments I've seen, I suppose others have seen them as well) Your argument here is that there are classes of application that can never be built on the browser platform, based on you saying "You're trying to shoehorn something to do something it wasn't intended and then causing noise because it doesn't do what it wasn't intended." That argument may be correct, however then Apple should make an open statement saying hey, web apps just won't do it. Otherwise people might mistakenly hear the arguments that they will do it and think I will make a web app. And the people making the arguments for web apps should be hit about how do you handle getting the app to work in the background when it is something that absolutely needs to like a radio station.

judah 7y ago

>> I would argue that you are misusing the web What? I built a music player, like Pandora. How is that misusing the web? I don't want to build a native app. This is a side project for me - I don't have the time, resources, or desires to rebuild my app in proprietary technologies. > I don't want garbage running in the background If you're using my music player app, you absolutely want it running; otherwise the music stops. > There are plenty of audio/radio apps on iOS using native technologies I don't want proprietary native technologies, anymore than I want Flash or Silverlight. I want the open web. > A playlist would be a hell of a lot cheaper than trying to run arbitrary javascript. My app isn't a playlist. It's an app, akin to Pandora.