4 ms·

>a diverse student body is part of the educational mission of a school. Why? Why should anyone attempt to intentionally manipulate the ethnic backgrounds of co

>a diverse student body is part of the educational mission of a school. Why? Why should anyone attempt to intentionally manipulate the ethnic backgrounds of college students? If you award admission bonuses for the symptoms of racism like being worse off financially or going to a poorly-rated high school, wouldn't you be adjusting for adversity in exact proportion to actual hardship instead of assigning an arbitrary value to skin color? This entire process can be completely race-agnostic and still compensate for systemic racism at the same time. I'm also curious what stops me from putting whatever I want in the race field on my application. I don't recall my university running a blood test to check if I was fibbing.

mises 7y ago
> I'm also curious what stops me from putting whatever i want int he race field on my application. Nothing, as we found out with Elizabeth Warren being "Indian". As you said, no test. Of course, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable handing my DNA over to every school to which I wanted to apply.
- blisterpeanuts 7y ago
  The notoriety of the Warren experience may cause institutions to require more documentation in the future. Then, of course, some applicants may experience the opposite problem: the admissions people won't believe them without DNA evidence, and then we have a Gattacca scenario. (from the movie about people's genomes being used in the hiring process)
  - big_chungus 7y ago
    The worst part about this is that the information will doubtless go to a testing facility, and from there will probably end up in the hands of some federal three-letter agency. It's already happened: https://www.wsj.com/articles/customers-handed-over-their-dna-the-company-let-the-fbi-take-a-look-11566491162 https://www.wsj.com/articles/customers-handed-over-their-dna... As more things require it, it will become unavoidable. By the way, I hadn't seen that movie. Thanks for mentioning it; looks like it might be good to watch.
    - blisterpeanuts 7y ago
      Well thought out, well written movie with a beautiful sound track. I highly recommend it! I've just re-watched it for the 3rd or 4th time, and it's held up very well since it came out around '99 or 2000.
- dbcurtis 7y ago
  Back in the day, a woman on my dorm floor would check a different box every quarter during registration, just to see what would happen. The main thing that would happen is that one quarter she would get a lot of mailings from the black student organization, and the next quarter a lot of mailings from the Asian student association. Of course, on an admissions form, a whole different machine kicks in. I think falsifying your admissions form would have consequences.
  - nradov 7y ago
    There are no consequences. What objective criteria could they possibly use to prove you falsified your application?
  - skinnymuch 7y ago
    How do you in most cases prove someone is falsifying what they identify as?
sterkekoffie 7y ago
>If you award admission bonuses for the symptoms of racism like being worse off financially or going to a poorly-rated high school, wouldn't you be adjusting for adversity in exact proportion to actual hardship instead of assigning an arbitrary value to skin color? Black and Latino students have worse academic outcomes than their peers in the same school and income bracket. Though low quality-of-life metrics may be symptomatic of racism, high quality-of-life metrics do not indicate an absence of racism.
- Causality1 7y ago
  By the same token, there are more causes of worse academic outcomes than only racism, else Asian students wouldn't perform any better than white students, unless one posits that everyone except Asian people are subject to performance-degrading racism, which I do not.
ThrustVectoring 7y ago
>Why should anyone attempt to intentionally manipulate the ethnic backgrounds of college students? Higher education - particularly for elite and Ivy League universities - is best understood more as a finishing school for acculturating youths into upper-middle and upper classes. By admitting a more balanced distribution of ethnic minorities, it allows these institutions to retain the perception of legitimacy for bestowing class status on graduates, rather that being seen as captured by the parents of the class the institution bestows.
- lazerpants 7y ago
  >Higher education - particularly for elite and Ivy League universities - is best understood more as a finishing school for acculturating youths into upper-middle and upper classes. Do you have any kind of reference, or even a decent collection of anecdotes supporting this?
  - ThrustVectoring 7y ago
    Just look at the "sheepskin effect" (most of benefit of college is in the final degree-granting year) and the representation of Yale, Harvard, and Columbia among Supreme Court Justices (and other elite positions). Furthermore, the model explains some other behavior, such as colleges attempting limit the number of certain minorities that would otherwise be over-represented based on test scores. Specifically, Harvard's quota on Jewish applicants in 1922 and their current lawsuit alleging anti-asian discrimination.

mises 7y ago

> I'm also curious what stops me from putting whatever i want int he race field on my application. Nothing, as we found out with Elizabeth Warren being "Indian". As you said, no test. Of course, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable handing my DNA over to every school to which I wanted to apply.

blisterpeanuts 7y ago
The notoriety of the Warren experience may cause institutions to require more documentation in the future. Then, of course, some applicants may experience the opposite problem: the admissions people won't believe them without DNA evidence, and then we have a Gattacca scenario. (from the movie about people's genomes being used in the hiring process)
- big_chungus 7y ago
  The worst part about this is that the information will doubtless go to a testing facility, and from there will probably end up in the hands of some federal three-letter agency. It's already happened: https://www.wsj.com/articles/customers-handed-over-their-dna-the-company-let-the-fbi-take-a-look-11566491162 https://www.wsj.com/articles/customers-handed-over-their-dna... As more things require it, it will become unavoidable. By the way, I hadn't seen that movie. Thanks for mentioning it; looks like it might be good to watch.
  - blisterpeanuts 7y ago
    Well thought out, well written movie with a beautiful sound track. I highly recommend it! I've just re-watched it for the 3rd or 4th time, and it's held up very well since it came out around '99 or 2000.
dbcurtis 7y ago
Back in the day, a woman on my dorm floor would check a different box every quarter during registration, just to see what would happen. The main thing that would happen is that one quarter she would get a lot of mailings from the black student organization, and the next quarter a lot of mailings from the Asian student association. Of course, on an admissions form, a whole different machine kicks in. I think falsifying your admissions form would have consequences.
- nradov 7y ago
  There are no consequences. What objective criteria could they possibly use to prove you falsified your application?
- skinnymuch 7y ago
  How do you in most cases prove someone is falsifying what they identify as?

sterkekoffie 7y ago

>If you award admission bonuses for the symptoms of racism like being worse off financially or going to a poorly-rated high school, wouldn't you be adjusting for adversity in exact proportion to actual hardship instead of assigning an arbitrary value to skin color? Black and Latino students have worse academic outcomes than their peers in the same school and income bracket. Though low quality-of-life metrics may be symptomatic of racism, high quality-of-life metrics do not indicate an absence of racism.

Causality1 7y ago
By the same token, there are more causes of worse academic outcomes than only racism, else Asian students wouldn't perform any better than white students, unless one posits that everyone except Asian people are subject to performance-degrading racism, which I do not.

ThrustVectoring 7y ago

>Why should anyone attempt to intentionally manipulate the ethnic backgrounds of college students? Higher education - particularly for elite and Ivy League universities - is best understood more as a finishing school for acculturating youths into upper-middle and upper classes. By admitting a more balanced distribution of ethnic minorities, it allows these institutions to retain the perception of legitimacy for bestowing class status on graduates, rather that being seen as captured by the parents of the class the institution bestows.

lazerpants 7y ago
>Higher education - particularly for elite and Ivy League universities - is best understood more as a finishing school for acculturating youths into upper-middle and upper classes. Do you have any kind of reference, or even a decent collection of anecdotes supporting this?
- ThrustVectoring 7y ago
  Just look at the "sheepskin effect" (most of benefit of college is in the final degree-granting year) and the representation of Yale, Harvard, and Columbia among Supreme Court Justices (and other elite positions). Furthermore, the model explains some other behavior, such as colleges attempting limit the number of certain minorities that would otherwise be over-represented based on test scores. Specifically, Harvard's quota on Jewish applicants in 1922 and their current lawsuit alleging anti-asian discrimination.