14 ms·

You're paying too much for business software

98 points by ryanb 7y ago

maybeiambatman 7y ago
I don't know if this is intentional, but the testimonials keep changing before I've had a chance to finish reading them. Bad UX imo. Why put em there if I can't read them properly?
- awwstn 7y ago
  we're pushing a fix for this ASAP!
davewritescode 7y ago
You’re basically inviting people to break non disclosure contracts that are often a part of pricing negotiations. IANAL but I really hope you’re not storing confidential pricing information along with the email address alongside because I have a feeling you could open yourself up to legal issues in the future.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  It's not really Bob's fault/liability of Alice gives him confidential information is it? (The exception to the rule being government data)
  - bdcravens 7y ago
    But when Jennifer notifies Alice that Bob is giving her information he shouldn't, and to please stop sharing it with others, Alice loses plausible deniability, especially if she ends up selling that information.
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    When Bob tells Alice she should do it, and compensates her for doing it, there's potential liability under a principle called "tortious interference". It's not a definite thing, but I think it's fair to say it's a risky idea to build a business on.
- awwstn 7y ago
  Founder of Capiche here! Yes, this is obviously a risk, just like lots of employees who share their comp packages on Glassdoor are taking a risk. A few things to note: 1) We're finding a ton of really interesting pricing data that is NOT under NDA (including companies that don't use NDAs, as well as companies with seemingly transparent pricing that A/B test so often that everyone is paying something different.
  - gpm 7y ago
    Glassdoor is different, disclosing your salary is often (depending on jurisdiction and details) protected by law, and many companies don't have a NDA that purports to prohibit it in the first place. For instance, I think it's likely that glassdoor would be federally protected in the US under section 7 of the NLRA (which protects talking about pay when it's part of a concerted effort to improve pay), and even it's it isn't it's almost certainly protected in California by section 232 of the labor code, which states: No employer may do any of the following: a.Require, as a condition of employment, that an employee refrain from disclosing the amount of his or her wages. b.Require an employee to sign a waiver or other document that purports to deny the employee the right to disclose the amount of his or her wages. c.Discharge, formally discipline, or otherwise discriminate against an employee who discloses the amount of his or her wages. (IANAL) Edit: Good resource with more information - https://www.dol.gov/wb/media/pay_secrecy.pdf https://www.dol.gov/wb/media/pay_secrecy.pdf
    - awwstn 7y ago
      Correct. But employers have WAY more leverage to take "under the table" action against employees than vendors do, without filing a lawsuit or in any way tying the punitive action to a Glassdoor post.
      - gpm 7y ago
        Sure, but that just means with glass door you shouldn't post enough information publicly that your current employer can identify you. With this website I'd be far more concerned about legal action, which could compel you to turn over the email and IP addresses associated with numbers that were posted in violation of NDAs.
- mcv 7y ago
  I find it a bit odd that in an economic system that claims to be capitalist, which is supposed to revolve around the free market, contracts that are directly meant to make the market less transparent (and thus less free) are totally legal. Of course I already knew that much of the US, or any other market, for that matter, isn't really free market, and I'm well aware of the limitations of the free market, but it's always good to remind ourselves of these things.
  - magduf 7y ago
    Exactly, that's why all this "free market" talk from its proponents is a bunch of hypocritical BS.
  - berns 7y ago
    You're free to make contracts with NDA clauses. You're free to buy from companies that have licenses with NDA clauses. And, most importantly, you're free to offer your services with the most transparent license you can imagine, so that you'll gain tons of contracts from the competition.
    - mcv 7y ago
      But those NDA contracts on price information make the market non-transparent, and transparency is essential for a free market. Just like you're not free to sell your vote, and not free to sell yourself into slavery, there should probably be other rights that you're also not free to sell.
arethuza 7y ago
I think people in the software business tend to assume that the main cost in large projects to do things like implement a new ERP system are licensing costs - which hasn't been my experience. Licensing costs are significant, but they are often pretty small compared to the cost of paying a partner help you implement a new system, as well as internal costs to backfill staff etc.
plehoux 7y ago
It's crazy the number of people expecting our SASS pricing to be negotiable. We offer one fair pricing to everyone and have no time to make special case pricing for every single user. I guess more prominent startups/companies embrace this as a tool to close or retain customers.
- joekrill 7y ago
  In my experience, most SaaS startups are all about "gettin' them logos!" The more "logos" (other well-known companies that use their product) they can pile up and tout on their website, the better. And so they'll make significant deals to get a well-known name signed. And I'm not saying this is wrong or a bad approach, by the way. It certainly lends credibility if, say, Google is using my SaaS product.
  - cubecul 7y ago
    Logos would be one way to measure success for a sales team but rarely the only one. Most times, there is a quota the salesperson has to hit, and there is a standardized discount schedule they are pre-approved to offer against in order to hit that quota.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Consultant32452 7y ago
  This is basic sales. Increase the price 10%. Offer everyone who asks a "special" 10% discount. Bonus points if you can convince the client you really fought for that special discount because they're such a great customer.
- bengale 7y ago
  > It's crazy the number of people expecting our SASS pricing to be negotiable. I don't know about expecting, but in most cases where we've been buying SAAS software it absolutely has been negotiable. Above the obvious 10bucks a month type stuff that isn't worth the time.
awwstn 7y ago
Hi all! Founder of Capiche here. Excited to share what we've been working on here. Given SaaS is an industry born on the internet, you'd think there'd be more transparency/less information asymmetry, but that's simply not the case. In talking with tons of software buyers the past few months, I've heard so many stories of huge discrepancies in what people are paying, even for the tools we all think have transparent pricing. This project is hugely inspired by Glassdoor. As this information starts to become more freely available, it will push the industry toward better pricing tactics, more transparency, and less special treatment. We hope to play a role in making that happen. Happy to answer any questions!
- blantonl 7y ago
  The new breed of SaaS providers seem to be providing pretty good transparency in pricing. Most, if not all, provide pricing directly on their pricing pages. The only difference might be in bulk or large users pricing, but mostly pricing in those SaaS spaces seems transparent. I think there is MUCH better opportunity in the Enterprise Software space, where margins are ridiculously high, and shady sales tactics are super prevalent. Read: Oracle, IBM, etc. There might also be opportunity to have anonymous users share sales and execution related dirt on Enterprise Software - such as non-performance, technical and security problems, and of course pricing. For instance, try going to IBM or Oracle's Web sites to purchase a "license" for any of their software products. Almost always you'll be directed to contact a sales representative. One wrinkle in your process is going to be navigating non-disclosure agreements.
  - 013a 7y ago
    The testimonials they already have on there are from Sendgrid, Twillio, Mixpanel, Asana; all of these companies are "transparent" in their up-front pricing, but you can sure as hell call them up and get a discount, and that's the frustrating bit that they're trying to solve.
    - bengale 7y ago
      Whats to solve though? You just phone them up, or email them in my experience. I think at least 3/4 cases when I drop some company an email I get a startup discount. Even if they weren't on this list, I'd still try my luck.
benologist 7y ago
If companies aren't charging a transparent rate it's because they know they can defraud a segment of their users and charge 6 - 50 times more than the next person pays for the same thing. It belongs on darkpatterns.org but perhaps is covered already with price comparison prevention: https://www.darkpatterns.org/types-of-dark-pattern/price-comparison-prevention https://www.darkpatterns.org/types-of-dark-pattern/price-com...
d--b 7y ago
Wow, what's that font in your logo?! That brings back a lot of memories!!
- benrapscallion 7y ago
  Could be Plantain by CastleType or Vulpa by Schizotype Fonts
omarhaneef 7y ago
Okay, what if the SaaS companies start posting anonymously as customers, and claim to be paying exorbitant prices? Would that just make people feel better about the prices they are paying?
teekert 7y ago
Although I like the initiative and encourage it, the use of "getting fair prices" grinds my gears a bit. A fair price is whatever a seller and a buyer agree upon, not the rock bottom value that you get when applying sustained pressure to a price point, collectively. You may get a product cheaper and cheaper but probably at the cost of the stability of the seller, which is also of value to a buyer. You may find that if you pay more you are more valued and a seller will do more for you in the future. Or you may be the last to close an important target of a sales person and get a below market price, at least for a while. What's fair? IDK. Just keep thinking and occasionally reopen negotiations in a respectful way if you think you can get more for less. Or switch to another product.
- danpalmer 7y ago
  Negotiation over pricing for SaaS products often comes down to who can put in enough time, or who is willing to ask for lower prices. There are cultures where asking for lower prices is not culturally acceptable, and many people feel uncomfortable doing so. This does not mean the product is worth more to them. Having more information here is a good thing.
  - teekert 7y ago
    OK but it may lead to such a conversation: Hey, company X pays less! I want to pay the same! But Company X files very constructive bug reports and has called support only 2 times this year whereas you only whine and call support every other day, so, sorry.
    - doingmyting 7y ago
      This to me doesn't seem like a great example. If pricing is dependent on specific factors then that should be listed explicitly or charged for separately rather than left up to the customer to discover. Imagine going to a restaurant and the table next to you orders the same meal and is charged half of what you pay and when asked why the waiter says "Well they sat down immediately and they ate everything so I had less load to take back to the dishwasher". None of that makes sense.
thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
I do like the concept: it's quite interesting to see what decision maker's opinion on pricing is. For regular off the shelf SaaS like dropbox, gmail, slack, surveymonky and just about any other tools that SMBs use the pricing seems very clear: it's always clearly listed on the site. The unclear pricing is just enterprise software, right? Are companies that use enterprise SaaS actually sensitive to price? I was under the impression that they're almost never too price sensitive and hence it doesn't make sense to build equivalent products that are cheaper - otherwise we'd see low cost alternative products all over the place.
- cosmie 7y ago
  > For regular off the shelf SaaS like dropbox, gmail, slack, surveymonky and just about any other tools that SMBs use the pricing seems very clear: it's always clearly listed on the site. All of the providers you listed have clearly listed rates, but each of those listed will also willingly negotiate those rates. At a previous job, the owner of the company required you to request a discount/custom pricing before purchasing anything. It took me a while to get used to it, but more often than not we got price breaks with little friction simply for asking. Even if there were clearly listed prices with self-service checkout and even if there wasn't a "Contact us" price option listed. And this was at a ~30-person company, where most software purchases were only for 3-5 licenses at most.

98 points by ryanb 7y ago

I don't know if this is intentional, but the testimonials keep changing before I've had a chance to finish reading them. Bad UX imo. Why put em there if I can't read them properly?

awwstn 7y ago
we're pushing a fix for this ASAP!

davewritescode 7y ago

You’re basically inviting people to break non disclosure contracts that are often a part of pricing negotiations. IANAL but I really hope you’re not storing confidential pricing information along with the email address alongside because I have a feeling you could open yourself up to legal issues in the future.

cameronbrown 7y ago
It's not really Bob's fault/liability of Alice gives him confidential information is it? (The exception to the rule being government data)
- bdcravens 7y ago
  But when Jennifer notifies Alice that Bob is giving her information he shouldn't, and to please stop sharing it with others, Alice loses plausible deniability, especially if she ends up selling that information.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  When Bob tells Alice she should do it, and compensates her for doing it, there's potential liability under a principle called "tortious interference". It's not a definite thing, but I think it's fair to say it's a risky idea to build a business on.
awwstn 7y ago
Founder of Capiche here! Yes, this is obviously a risk, just like lots of employees who share their comp packages on Glassdoor are taking a risk. A few things to note: 1) We're finding a ton of really interesting pricing data that is NOT under NDA (including companies that don't use NDAs, as well as companies with seemingly transparent pricing that A/B test so often that everyone is paying something different.
- gpm 7y ago
  Glassdoor is different, disclosing your salary is often (depending on jurisdiction and details) protected by law, and many companies don't have a NDA that purports to prohibit it in the first place. For instance, I think it's likely that glassdoor would be federally protected in the US under section 7 of the NLRA (which protects talking about pay when it's part of a concerted effort to improve pay), and even it's it isn't it's almost certainly protected in California by section 232 of the labor code, which states: No employer may do any of the following: a.Require, as a condition of employment, that an employee refrain from disclosing the amount of his or her wages. b.Require an employee to sign a waiver or other document that purports to deny the employee the right to disclose the amount of his or her wages. c.Discharge, formally discipline, or otherwise discriminate against an employee who discloses the amount of his or her wages. (IANAL) Edit: Good resource with more information - https://www.dol.gov/wb/media/pay_secrecy.pdf https://www.dol.gov/wb/media/pay_secrecy.pdf
  - awwstn 7y ago
    Correct. But employers have WAY more leverage to take "under the table" action against employees than vendors do, without filing a lawsuit or in any way tying the punitive action to a Glassdoor post.
    - gpm 7y ago
      Sure, but that just means with glass door you shouldn't post enough information publicly that your current employer can identify you. With this website I'd be far more concerned about legal action, which could compel you to turn over the email and IP addresses associated with numbers that were posted in violation of NDAs.
mcv 7y ago
I find it a bit odd that in an economic system that claims to be capitalist, which is supposed to revolve around the free market, contracts that are directly meant to make the market less transparent (and thus less free) are totally legal. Of course I already knew that much of the US, or any other market, for that matter, isn't really free market, and I'm well aware of the limitations of the free market, but it's always good to remind ourselves of these things.
- magduf 7y ago
  Exactly, that's why all this "free market" talk from its proponents is a bunch of hypocritical BS.
- berns 7y ago
  You're free to make contracts with NDA clauses. You're free to buy from companies that have licenses with NDA clauses. And, most importantly, you're free to offer your services with the most transparent license you can imagine, so that you'll gain tons of contracts from the competition.
  - mcv 7y ago
    But those NDA contracts on price information make the market non-transparent, and transparency is essential for a free market. Just like you're not free to sell your vote, and not free to sell yourself into slavery, there should probably be other rights that you're also not free to sell.

arethuza 7y ago

I think people in the software business tend to assume that the main cost in large projects to do things like implement a new ERP system are licensing costs - which hasn't been my experience. Licensing costs are significant, but they are often pretty small compared to the cost of paying a partner help you implement a new system, as well as internal costs to backfill staff etc.

plehoux 7y ago

It's crazy the number of people expecting our SASS pricing to be negotiable. We offer one fair pricing to everyone and have no time to make special case pricing for every single user. I guess more prominent startups/companies embrace this as a tool to close or retain customers.

joekrill 7y ago
In my experience, most SaaS startups are all about "gettin' them logos!" The more "logos" (other well-known companies that use their product) they can pile up and tout on their website, the better. And so they'll make significant deals to get a well-known name signed. And I'm not saying this is wrong or a bad approach, by the way. It certainly lends credibility if, say, Google is using my SaaS product.
- cubecul 7y ago
  Logos would be one way to measure success for a sales team but rarely the only one. Most times, there is a quota the salesperson has to hit, and there is a standardized discount schedule they are pre-approved to offer against in order to hit that quota.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Consultant32452 7y ago
This is basic sales. Increase the price 10%. Offer everyone who asks a "special" 10% discount. Bonus points if you can convince the client you really fought for that special discount because they're such a great customer.
bengale 7y ago
> It's crazy the number of people expecting our SASS pricing to be negotiable. I don't know about expecting, but in most cases where we've been buying SAAS software it absolutely has been negotiable. Above the obvious 10bucks a month type stuff that isn't worth the time.

awwstn 7y ago

Hi all! Founder of Capiche here. Excited to share what we've been working on here. Given SaaS is an industry born on the internet, you'd think there'd be more transparency/less information asymmetry, but that's simply not the case. In talking with tons of software buyers the past few months, I've heard so many stories of huge discrepancies in what people are paying, even for the tools we all think have transparent pricing. This project is hugely inspired by Glassdoor. As this information starts to become more freely available, it will push the industry toward better pricing tactics, more transparency, and less special treatment. We hope to play a role in making that happen. Happy to answer any questions!

blantonl 7y ago
The new breed of SaaS providers seem to be providing pretty good transparency in pricing. Most, if not all, provide pricing directly on their pricing pages. The only difference might be in bulk or large users pricing, but mostly pricing in those SaaS spaces seems transparent. I think there is MUCH better opportunity in the Enterprise Software space, where margins are ridiculously high, and shady sales tactics are super prevalent. Read: Oracle, IBM, etc. There might also be opportunity to have anonymous users share sales and execution related dirt on Enterprise Software - such as non-performance, technical and security problems, and of course pricing. For instance, try going to IBM or Oracle's Web sites to purchase a "license" for any of their software products. Almost always you'll be directed to contact a sales representative. One wrinkle in your process is going to be navigating non-disclosure agreements.
- 013a 7y ago
  The testimonials they already have on there are from Sendgrid, Twillio, Mixpanel, Asana; all of these companies are "transparent" in their up-front pricing, but you can sure as hell call them up and get a discount, and that's the frustrating bit that they're trying to solve.
  - bengale 7y ago
    Whats to solve though? You just phone them up, or email them in my experience. I think at least 3/4 cases when I drop some company an email I get a startup discount. Even if they weren't on this list, I'd still try my luck.

benologist 7y ago

If companies aren't charging a transparent rate it's because they know they can defraud a segment of their users and charge 6 - 50 times more than the next person pays for the same thing. It belongs on darkpatterns.org but perhaps is covered already with price comparison prevention: https://www.darkpatterns.org/types-of-dark-pattern/price-comparison-prevention https://www.darkpatterns.org/types-of-dark-pattern/price-com...

d--b 7y ago

Wow, what's that font in your logo?! That brings back a lot of memories!!

benrapscallion 7y ago
Could be Plantain by CastleType or Vulpa by Schizotype Fonts

omarhaneef 7y ago

Okay, what if the SaaS companies start posting anonymously as customers, and claim to be paying exorbitant prices? Would that just make people feel better about the prices they are paying?

teekert 7y ago

Although I like the initiative and encourage it, the use of "getting fair prices" grinds my gears a bit. A fair price is whatever a seller and a buyer agree upon, not the rock bottom value that you get when applying sustained pressure to a price point, collectively. You may get a product cheaper and cheaper but probably at the cost of the stability of the seller, which is also of value to a buyer. You may find that if you pay more you are more valued and a seller will do more for you in the future. Or you may be the last to close an important target of a sales person and get a below market price, at least for a while. What's fair? IDK. Just keep thinking and occasionally reopen negotiations in a respectful way if you think you can get more for less. Or switch to another product.

danpalmer 7y ago
Negotiation over pricing for SaaS products often comes down to who can put in enough time, or who is willing to ask for lower prices. There are cultures where asking for lower prices is not culturally acceptable, and many people feel uncomfortable doing so. This does not mean the product is worth more to them. Having more information here is a good thing.
- teekert 7y ago
  OK but it may lead to such a conversation: Hey, company X pays less! I want to pay the same! But Company X files very constructive bug reports and has called support only 2 times this year whereas you only whine and call support every other day, so, sorry.
  - doingmyting 7y ago
    This to me doesn't seem like a great example. If pricing is dependent on specific factors then that should be listed explicitly or charged for separately rather than left up to the customer to discover. Imagine going to a restaurant and the table next to you orders the same meal and is charged half of what you pay and when asked why the waiter says "Well they sat down immediately and they ate everything so I had less load to take back to the dishwasher". None of that makes sense.

thorwasdfasdf 7y ago

I do like the concept: it's quite interesting to see what decision maker's opinion on pricing is. For regular off the shelf SaaS like dropbox, gmail, slack, surveymonky and just about any other tools that SMBs use the pricing seems very clear: it's always clearly listed on the site. The unclear pricing is just enterprise software, right? Are companies that use enterprise SaaS actually sensitive to price? I was under the impression that they're almost never too price sensitive and hence it doesn't make sense to build equivalent products that are cheaper - otherwise we'd see low cost alternative products all over the place.

cosmie 7y ago
> For regular off the shelf SaaS like dropbox, gmail, slack, surveymonky and just about any other tools that SMBs use the pricing seems very clear: it's always clearly listed on the site. All of the providers you listed have clearly listed rates, but each of those listed will also willingly negotiate those rates. At a previous job, the owner of the company required you to request a discount/custom pricing before purchasing anything. It took me a while to get used to it, but more often than not we got price breaks with little friction simply for asking. Even if there were clearly listed prices with self-service checkout and even if there wasn't a "Contact us" price option listed. And this was at a ~30-person company, where most software purchases were only for 3-5 licenses at most.