6 ms·

Looks we need more game development in schools, as it's the most math heavy thing close to modern kids' lives.

bayesian_horse 7y ago
Definitively, but it's hard to bring teachers up to speed. For one thing they often lack the particular curiosity, which may be associated to choosing the teaching path (unfortunately). And I suspect it's also dangerous to teach coding to teachers: It's a skill that can land them much more lucrative and less stressful jobs.
- xgulfie 7y ago
  Yeah I have a friend who had a math degree, taught CS and math. She got exposure to actual software dev work, realized how much better a job it is and eventually left teaching.
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  Personally I think I would enjoy teaching kids math (I've done tutoring for grade school students for years), but between the pointless certifications, workplace politics, low pay, standards that force teaching to tests, harmful teacher ranking policies, and a inherit career danger for male teachers there is no way I could make such a career change. So I'll stick to tutoring two to three students a year.
- dorkwood 7y ago
  What’s an example of a non-stressful programmer role? Asking for a friend.
  - pfranz 7y ago
    The tricky part about teaching is that it's unbounded. I've never taught, but I remember transitioning from school to a job and it was a huge thing for me that I could keep work at work and I could start focusing on things outside without distraction. For friends that teach there's a lot of work that's expected that's not scheduled work hours (grading, lesson planning, etc). Dealing with parents is one of the largest stressors and that's almost exclusively outside of classroom time.
    - bayesian_horse 7y ago
      Depending on the particular school system, teachers can often shut out or minimize out-of-class work, but it takes a tougher attitude than many teachers have. Also, many teachers don't think "no parent engagement" is more desirable than high parent engagement. Differences in the parents ability to engage the school (available time, money, language skills etc) contributes to social and ethnic disadvantages in many nations' school systems.
      - pfranz 7y ago
        I was mostly pointing to the out-of-class work as something people who work other jobs wouldn't expect. I don't think there's a scenario where it doesn't exist and I'm a bit surprised I don't see better guidelines from either school districts or teacher's unions. It's something teacher's need to figure out for themselves. Trying to minimize that time was obvious to me as a student when I had poor teachers. Planning periods and planning days are nowhere near adequate to cover their responsibilities. > Also, many teachers don't think "no parent engagement" is more desirable than high parent engagement. I've never heard a teacher argue for no engagement. My point was that parent engagement is inevitable and always outside of scheduled class time. It's also one of the top complaints (along with administration and mandatory testing), so it's doubly unfortunate its unbounded.
        bayesian_horse 7y ago
        My teachers would have shut down any parent without an extremely urgent issue trying to contact them after hours. And I highly doubt that they got above a 40 hour work week including their lesson preparation. But I guess expectations and regulations vary and it takes a personal strength that shouldn't be required of teachers. It's doubly sad that school systems are increasingly relying on teachers giving in and carrying more than their contractual burden.
  - bayesian_horse 7y ago
    Depends on your employer as always. But with a modicum of respect for work-hours and office climate, most programming jobs should be less stressful than teaching high school. I'm not totally familiar with US coding/teaching jobs, and it also depends on how you deal with "stress" and the managing styles etc. But teachers are on the front lines dealing with teenagers who are (at times) unruly, mean, sometimes outright violent, and parents will blame you for all those problems. Maybe 99% of your students are nice or well behaving, but it doesn't take a lot. I've heard quite a few stories of classes driving teachers mad. A lot of fresh teachers even drop out...
tempguy9999 7y ago
Agreed. I don't believe programming should be taught in school until late, but the use of games to bring maths alive, to give maths a relevance, would be fantastic. I, like most people, don't work in the abstract and need a framework to a) interest me in things, and b) to make them relevant. Without that it's so much harder.
- 300bps 7y ago
  I don't believe programming should be taught in school until late Why do you believe this? Speaking for myself, I learned to program in three programming languages by 11 and I think it was very helpful.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    Just IMO, programming is addictively fun and can be shallow. I think the clarity of thought and concept that maths brings is far more important. The ability to plan, to focus, to organise, and more broadly to interact with others and other life skills. Programming does not teach those, indeed it allows the production of scrappy stuff that seems to work and is great fun. I found it hugely distracting myself in the way that social media is addictive to current kids. I'm not explaining myself well and perhaps I'm extrapolating too much from my own case, but I hope that gives you an idea of what I'm trying to say - the very thing in programming - the bringing of something to a kind of life - is the very thing that makes it valuable to hang mathematics off, is also the thing that makes it a shiny bauble that kids/younger adults love to dabble with and be distracted by. But your experience suggests a different POV. I may well be wrong.
    - strokirk 7y ago
      I don't think those skills are particularly well developed by math for most students either.
      - tempguy9999 7y ago
        Uh, bad post (of mine). I agree. Maths is more important than programming IMO. But wider skills (job-related, planning, and social skills) are just as important, probably more so. But programming is an almost magical process of animating a thing. It can be too attractive, addicting, distracting... Just my POV. I should not have posted originally without some evidence to support my claim.

Definitively, but it's hard to bring teachers up to speed. For one thing they often lack the particular curiosity, which may be associated to choosing the teaching path (unfortunately). And I suspect it's also dangerous to teach coding to teachers: It's a skill that can land them much more lucrative and less stressful jobs.

xgulfie 7y ago
Yeah I have a friend who had a math degree, taught CS and math. She got exposure to actual software dev work, realized how much better a job it is and eventually left teaching.
SkyBelow 7y ago
Personally I think I would enjoy teaching kids math (I've done tutoring for grade school students for years), but between the pointless certifications, workplace politics, low pay, standards that force teaching to tests, harmful teacher ranking policies, and a inherit career danger for male teachers there is no way I could make such a career change. So I'll stick to tutoring two to three students a year.
dorkwood 7y ago
What’s an example of a non-stressful programmer role? Asking for a friend.
- pfranz 7y ago
  The tricky part about teaching is that it's unbounded. I've never taught, but I remember transitioning from school to a job and it was a huge thing for me that I could keep work at work and I could start focusing on things outside without distraction. For friends that teach there's a lot of work that's expected that's not scheduled work hours (grading, lesson planning, etc). Dealing with parents is one of the largest stressors and that's almost exclusively outside of classroom time.
  - bayesian_horse 7y ago
    Depending on the particular school system, teachers can often shut out or minimize out-of-class work, but it takes a tougher attitude than many teachers have. Also, many teachers don't think "no parent engagement" is more desirable than high parent engagement. Differences in the parents ability to engage the school (available time, money, language skills etc) contributes to social and ethnic disadvantages in many nations' school systems.
    - pfranz 7y ago
      I was mostly pointing to the out-of-class work as something people who work other jobs wouldn't expect. I don't think there's a scenario where it doesn't exist and I'm a bit surprised I don't see better guidelines from either school districts or teacher's unions. It's something teacher's need to figure out for themselves. Trying to minimize that time was obvious to me as a student when I had poor teachers. Planning periods and planning days are nowhere near adequate to cover their responsibilities. > Also, many teachers don't think "no parent engagement" is more desirable than high parent engagement. I've never heard a teacher argue for no engagement. My point was that parent engagement is inevitable and always outside of scheduled class time. It's also one of the top complaints (along with administration and mandatory testing), so it's doubly unfortunate its unbounded.
      - bayesian_horse 7y ago
        My teachers would have shut down any parent without an extremely urgent issue trying to contact them after hours. And I highly doubt that they got above a 40 hour work week including their lesson preparation. But I guess expectations and regulations vary and it takes a personal strength that shouldn't be required of teachers. It's doubly sad that school systems are increasingly relying on teachers giving in and carrying more than their contractual burden.
- bayesian_horse 7y ago
  Depends on your employer as always. But with a modicum of respect for work-hours and office climate, most programming jobs should be less stressful than teaching high school. I'm not totally familiar with US coding/teaching jobs, and it also depends on how you deal with "stress" and the managing styles etc. But teachers are on the front lines dealing with teenagers who are (at times) unruly, mean, sometimes outright violent, and parents will blame you for all those problems. Maybe 99% of your students are nice or well behaving, but it doesn't take a lot. I've heard quite a few stories of classes driving teachers mad. A lot of fresh teachers even drop out...

tempguy9999 7y ago

Agreed. I don't believe programming should be taught in school until late, but the use of games to bring maths alive, to give maths a relevance, would be fantastic. I, like most people, don't work in the abstract and need a framework to a) interest me in things, and b) to make them relevant. Without that it's so much harder.

300bps 7y ago
I don't believe programming should be taught in school until late Why do you believe this? Speaking for myself, I learned to program in three programming languages by 11 and I think it was very helpful.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  Just IMO, programming is addictively fun and can be shallow. I think the clarity of thought and concept that maths brings is far more important. The ability to plan, to focus, to organise, and more broadly to interact with others and other life skills. Programming does not teach those, indeed it allows the production of scrappy stuff that seems to work and is great fun. I found it hugely distracting myself in the way that social media is addictive to current kids. I'm not explaining myself well and perhaps I'm extrapolating too much from my own case, but I hope that gives you an idea of what I'm trying to say - the very thing in programming - the bringing of something to a kind of life - is the very thing that makes it valuable to hang mathematics off, is also the thing that makes it a shiny bauble that kids/younger adults love to dabble with and be distracted by. But your experience suggests a different POV. I may well be wrong.
  - strokirk 7y ago
    I don't think those skills are particularly well developed by math for most students either.
    - tempguy9999 7y ago
      Uh, bad post (of mine). I agree. Maths is more important than programming IMO. But wider skills (job-related, planning, and social skills) are just as important, probably more so. But programming is an almost magical process of animating a thing. It can be too attractive, addicting, distracting... Just my POV. I should not have posted originally without some evidence to support my claim.