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Reposting my comment from the duplicate thread at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20804401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20804401: In the previous

by deogeo 7y ago

Reposting my comment from the duplicate thread at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20804401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20804401: In the previous thread, someone made a good point - his newer games, with more resources spent on them, look worse than the old ones. Someone else applied pixelization/palletization to the screenshot of his new game, and the degraded quality made it look better: https://i.imgur.com/oPH7paD.jpg https://i.imgur.com/oPH7paD.jpg Of course neither point is addressed, and he keeps pretending that the only way to improve is to expend more resources. As also pointed out in the previous discussion, that's because he simply doesn't have an eye for art. He compares his game to the consistent-and-pleasant-to-look-at Baba Is You, because he can't see the difference, and so he doesn't even see there's a problem to be solved. We might as well try to explain the difference between blue and red to a blind person. That's why he can show a picture of dwarf fortress without realizing it looks better than his game. Going for a Caves of Qud look would also probably save him money - but he simply can't see that it looks better.

sha666sum 7y ago
Those other versions don't look better, though.
hitekker 7y ago
Hopefully, your perspective dissuades others from alchemizing the author's rationalization.
catern 7y ago
Actually I think he engages with your point pretty well. You say: >he simply doesn't have an eye for art and >he keeps pretending that the only way to improve is to expend more resources. But he says: >By the way, for people who asked me why I don't just learn to do better art myself, this is why. To learn to do better art, I'd need to spend at least 6-12 months. (To think it takes less is insulting to artists.) I just don't have the time to not be writing games. It seems correct that for him to develop an eye for art, would require him to expend resources. How is he supposed to develop an eye for art? Listen to all the comments on his posts? I don't think so, random internet comments are rarely a good source of advice. Developing a taste for art that will actually improve his games will take time and study and possibly even trial and error. And applying that taste once it's developed will take even more time. And it seems totally plausible to me that he can't afford to spend those resources. His argument is very specific to his own situation. But it seems likely to be correct about his own situation.
- deogeo 7y ago
  In a way, he is right, yes - he would need to spend more resources. Probably on hiring someone with an eye for art. But how could he tell if that someone actually has an eye for art, if he doesn't have one himself... I'm not sure he can develop an eye for art, however. He writes "To learn to do better art" - but it's not the doing that's the problem, but the seeing. How do you teach a sense of aesthetics? It seems to me more a matter of taste - you find a picture pleasing, or not. You may be able to learn why you find it pleasing, but the subjective experience itself is not a product of any kind of knowledge.
  - thanatropism 7y ago
    A proper musical education is pretty effective in teaching a sense of (musical) aesthetics. You need to start from first principles, though. In music this is done eg by learning to logically develop independent harmonically coherent voices (rather than thinking in “chords”).
    - scns 7y ago
      I don't think so. Heard educated musicians perfectly play music that left me indifferent. Musicians that create music that touches me are often self taught.
      - thanatropism 7y ago
        Sure, but those self taught musicians already had a sense of aesthetics going in.
        scns 7y ago
        That's it, thank you. Technique can be learnt. Not sure about a sense of aesthetics.
- grawprog 7y ago
  I still think he should just allow custom assets to be used. He has a dedicated fanbase. Dedicated fanbases will go out of their way to create and improve content if given the chance. Just look at games like dwarf fortress and minecraft. I don't know much about his games, but it seems like, especially with a kickstarter backed project, allowing custom assets would be the best of both worlds. He could release his game with its 'cheap bastard art' and fans would step in to make their own art. Which might help actually get him some new fans without any extra cost. Some people just like to customize things because they can.
GuiA 7y ago
> Of course neither point is addressed, and he keeps pretending that the only way to improve is to expend more resources. He didn’t write this blog post to address any of the criticisms; this guy comes across as a “my way or the highway” kind of guy (and hey, if he’s successful in business, good for him). But he found a topic that makes people want to comment and upvote a lot, giving him tons of exposure, so he would be silly to not keep milking that as much as he can.
- thanatropism 7y ago
  He might be sacrificing some reputation for the short term thrill of controversy. That’s something we all should be wary of.
  - mietek 7y ago
    You do realise this is Jeff “Scorched Earth Party” Vogel? http://www.ironycentral.com/scorchedearth.html http://www.ironycentral.com/scorchedearth.html Keep on truckin’, Jeff.
    - zapzupnz 7y ago
      Literally didn't know who it was until the last post made it to the front page, so "you do realise who this is, right?" mightn't really apply. Even then, it's not like prolific game developers are excused from this or that by reputation alone. I don't remember Peter Molyneux coming out smelling of roses after that Kickstarter thing; just one blip in a lifetime of a prodigal career can be very damaging. I'm not saying that example and Jeff's posts are even remotely comparable, I just wanted to make the point.
      - thanatropism 7y ago
        I literally have trouble telling Peter and Stefan Molyneux apart when reading headlines.
        7y ago
Chathamization 7y ago
It's nearly impossible to improve on something if you're convinced that there's no room for improvement and that anyone who offers constructive criticism is a hater. If you know you have a blind spot for something, getting constructive feedback from others would be useful. But there seems to be a strong amount of resentment from Vogel and a certain subsection of his fanbase whenever it's suggested that he might be able to do better. Such an attitude isn't conducive to improvement.
Semaphor 7y ago
> Someone else applied pixelization/palletization to the screenshot of his new game, and the degraded quality made it look better I can only speak for myself, but assuming the bottom SS is the real one, it looks the best to me. My main problem with his games is that the interface feels clunky.
mrob 7y ago
The lower resolution one looks worse, because when I see low-resolution art like that I expect to see pixel art, but it's just resampled high-resolution art. It doesn't exploit the non-point-sample reality of pixels to create the illusion of higher resolution like pixel art does. The middle one changes the meaning of the green liquid next to the building. The original uses a bright saturated green, which is the standard visual code for "harmful to touch" (e.g. acid or radioactive waste). The modified version merely looks like dirty water. I haven't played the game so I don't know which is correct.
arkades 7y ago
> Someone else applied pixelization/palletization to the screenshot of his new game, and the degraded quality made it look better: https://i.imgur.com/oPH7paD.jpg https://i.imgur.com/oPH7paD.jpg I can’t tell which of those is supposed to be the “better” and which is the “worse.” Which I suppose goes to show that this isn’t an issue for everyone
- Macha 7y ago
  From the description of the filters applied, it feels like the bottom is the original as the palettization unifies the colour and the top is definitely more pixelated. But to me I like the colours of the bottom more and you can see some places (like the tent in the top right) where there's significant detail loss in the top one, which is also why I think it's not the original. That said, there are some things that are improved. The inconsistent shadows and harsh differences in level of detail are very clear in the bottom one and not so much in the top one. So I'm with you, I can guess which one is the original, but I couldn't pick a "better" one.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
> Someone else applied pixelization/palletization to the screenshot of his new game, and the degraded quality made it look better: https://i.imgur.com/oPH7paD.jpg https://i.imgur.com/oPH7paD.jpg I think that's pretty illustrative of Jeff's point actually. I, for one, can barely see any difference at all between these images and none of them look particularly "better" to me than the others.
- wingerlang 7y ago
  I think the difference is day and night.

by deogeo 7y ago

sha666sum 7y ago

Those other versions don't look better, though.

hitekker 7y ago

Hopefully, your perspective dissuades others from alchemizing the author's rationalization.

catern 7y ago

Actually I think he engages with your point pretty well. You say: >he simply doesn't have an eye for art and >he keeps pretending that the only way to improve is to expend more resources. But he says: >By the way, for people who asked me why I don't just learn to do better art myself, this is why. To learn to do better art, I'd need to spend at least 6-12 months. (To think it takes less is insulting to artists.) I just don't have the time to not be writing games. It seems correct that for him to develop an eye for art, would require him to expend resources. How is he supposed to develop an eye for art? Listen to all the comments on his posts? I don't think so, random internet comments are rarely a good source of advice. Developing a taste for art that will actually improve his games will take time and study and possibly even trial and error. And applying that taste once it's developed will take even more time. And it seems totally plausible to me that he can't afford to spend those resources. His argument is very specific to his own situation. But it seems likely to be correct about his own situation.

deogeo 7y ago
In a way, he is right, yes - he would need to spend more resources. Probably on hiring someone with an eye for art. But how could he tell if that someone actually has an eye for art, if he doesn't have one himself... I'm not sure he can develop an eye for art, however. He writes "To learn to do better art" - but it's not the doing that's the problem, but the seeing. How do you teach a sense of aesthetics? It seems to me more a matter of taste - you find a picture pleasing, or not. You may be able to learn why you find it pleasing, but the subjective experience itself is not a product of any kind of knowledge.
- thanatropism 7y ago
  A proper musical education is pretty effective in teaching a sense of (musical) aesthetics. You need to start from first principles, though. In music this is done eg by learning to logically develop independent harmonically coherent voices (rather than thinking in “chords”).
  - scns 7y ago
    I don't think so. Heard educated musicians perfectly play music that left me indifferent. Musicians that create music that touches me are often self taught.
    - thanatropism 7y ago
      Sure, but those self taught musicians already had a sense of aesthetics going in.
      - scns 7y ago
        That's it, thank you. Technique can be learnt. Not sure about a sense of aesthetics.
grawprog 7y ago
I still think he should just allow custom assets to be used. He has a dedicated fanbase. Dedicated fanbases will go out of their way to create and improve content if given the chance. Just look at games like dwarf fortress and minecraft. I don't know much about his games, but it seems like, especially with a kickstarter backed project, allowing custom assets would be the best of both worlds. He could release his game with its 'cheap bastard art' and fans would step in to make their own art. Which might help actually get him some new fans without any extra cost. Some people just like to customize things because they can.

GuiA 7y ago

> Of course neither point is addressed, and he keeps pretending that the only way to improve is to expend more resources. He didn’t write this blog post to address any of the criticisms; this guy comes across as a “my way or the highway” kind of guy (and hey, if he’s successful in business, good for him). But he found a topic that makes people want to comment and upvote a lot, giving him tons of exposure, so he would be silly to not keep milking that as much as he can.

thanatropism 7y ago
He might be sacrificing some reputation for the short term thrill of controversy. That’s something we all should be wary of.
- mietek 7y ago
  You do realise this is Jeff “Scorched Earth Party” Vogel? http://www.ironycentral.com/scorchedearth.html http://www.ironycentral.com/scorchedearth.html Keep on truckin’, Jeff.
  - zapzupnz 7y ago
    Literally didn't know who it was until the last post made it to the front page, so "you do realise who this is, right?" mightn't really apply. Even then, it's not like prolific game developers are excused from this or that by reputation alone. I don't remember Peter Molyneux coming out smelling of roses after that Kickstarter thing; just one blip in a lifetime of a prodigal career can be very damaging. I'm not saying that example and Jeff's posts are even remotely comparable, I just wanted to make the point.
    - thanatropism 7y ago
      I literally have trouble telling Peter and Stefan Molyneux apart when reading headlines.
      - 7y ago

Chathamization 7y ago

It's nearly impossible to improve on something if you're convinced that there's no room for improvement and that anyone who offers constructive criticism is a hater. If you know you have a blind spot for something, getting constructive feedback from others would be useful. But there seems to be a strong amount of resentment from Vogel and a certain subsection of his fanbase whenever it's suggested that he might be able to do better. Such an attitude isn't conducive to improvement.

Semaphor 7y ago

> Someone else applied pixelization/palletization to the screenshot of his new game, and the degraded quality made it look better I can only speak for myself, but assuming the bottom SS is the real one, it looks the best to me. My main problem with his games is that the interface feels clunky.

mrob 7y ago

The lower resolution one looks worse, because when I see low-resolution art like that I expect to see pixel art, but it's just resampled high-resolution art. It doesn't exploit the non-point-sample reality of pixels to create the illusion of higher resolution like pixel art does. The middle one changes the meaning of the green liquid next to the building. The original uses a bright saturated green, which is the standard visual code for "harmful to touch" (e.g. acid or radioactive waste). The modified version merely looks like dirty water. I haven't played the game so I don't know which is correct.

arkades 7y ago

> Someone else applied pixelization/palletization to the screenshot of his new game, and the degraded quality made it look better: https://i.imgur.com/oPH7paD.jpg https://i.imgur.com/oPH7paD.jpg I can’t tell which of those is supposed to be the “better” and which is the “worse.” Which I suppose goes to show that this isn’t an issue for everyone

Macha 7y ago
From the description of the filters applied, it feels like the bottom is the original as the palettization unifies the colour and the top is definitely more pixelated. But to me I like the colours of the bottom more and you can see some places (like the tent in the top right) where there's significant detail loss in the top one, which is also why I think it's not the original. That said, there are some things that are improved. The inconsistent shadows and harsh differences in level of detail are very clear in the bottom one and not so much in the top one. So I'm with you, I can guess which one is the original, but I couldn't pick a "better" one.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago

> Someone else applied pixelization/palletization to the screenshot of his new game, and the degraded quality made it look better: https://i.imgur.com/oPH7paD.jpg https://i.imgur.com/oPH7paD.jpg I think that's pretty illustrative of Jeff's point actually. I, for one, can barely see any difference at all between these images and none of them look particularly "better" to me than the others.

wingerlang 7y ago
I think the difference is day and night.