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> But being able to turn an audio book into text seems well within my rights. Maybe it is. The law isn't the best place to glean any useful moral principles f

> But being able to turn an audio book into text seems well within my rights. Maybe it is. The law isn't the best place to glean any useful moral principles from. I think if you're willing to put in the effort, nobody's going to stop you from making your own text version from the audiobook. But once you're in a position where you're distributing that unauthorized version, or you're already a distributor of the audiobook version and add a feature that automatically creates a text version (without appropriate licensing from the copyright holder), it's something else entirely.

SkyBelow 7y ago
>The law isn't the best place to glean any useful moral principles from. I should clarify I was talking about the existing legal rights owning property entitles me to. Moral rights as well, but that discussion isn't nearly as relevant or useful in this particular case. Sorry for not clarifying. >and add a feature that automatically creates a text version This is where I'm not so certain about. If they add a keyboard and notepad that lets me take audio myself, then where is the significant difference in adding software that makes it easier for me to do the transcription? Is there a certain level of ease that anything easier than that becomes illegal?
- jplayer01 7y ago
  > This is where I'm not so certain about. If they add a keyboard and notepad that lets me take audio myself, then where is the significant difference in adding software that makes it easier for me to do the transcription? Is there a certain level of ease that anything easier than that becomes illegal? I don't think there's any uncertainty here. They're creating a text version and distributing it without appropriate licensing. If they give you a notepad, and you happen to write a text version, it's not them creating or distributing it, but it's still unlicensed. If it makes its way on their platform in some way, they're going to need permission, again. Further, I don't understand why anybody here is giving Amazon the benefit of the doubt. If they want to do this, they can negotiate the required licensing from the publishers. The fact that they've done it without doing this or even discussing it with the publishers shows their clear intent to do what they want, regardless of how much it runs afoul of any laws, simply because they're big enough to fight any lawsuits for ages.
  - SkyBelow 7y ago
    >They're creating a text version and distributing it without appropriate licensing. If they create it on their machines and distribute it, then I agree this is an issue. It doesn't matter if it is an AI or if they paid someone to transcribe it, they are distributing a work they likely don't have permission to do so. But if they provide you an application to create it on your machine, then it is you who does the work to make a copy and distributing the application is not an issue (there is an underlying issue of distributing a neural network that was trained by private work, but I'm not certain that is the case here and I think that is a separate issue to discuss that is irrelevant to the use of that neural network). It is my understanding that the user's device does the translation, but if that isn't the case then my entire argument doesn't apply to this particular case. >Further, I don't understand why anybody here is giving Amazon the benefit of the doubt. Personally I don't care about Amazon. But I do care about the precedent set when it comes to distributing applications that make doing something legal easier (at near zero cost). I personally don't even prefer the argument they use and don't even think it works that great as an argument (because it doesn't work if you replace the AI with a person hired to do the same job).
    - jplayer01 7y ago
      > Personally I don't care about Amazon. But I do care about the precedent set when it comes to distributing applications that make doing something legal easier (at near zero cost). I personally don't even prefer the argument they use and don't even think it works that great as an argument (because it doesn't work if you replace the AI with a person hired to do the same job). I'd say if this were an open source project created by some volunteers because they were genuinely of the opinion that this provided value to people, and it would in the same way that DeDRM is, there'd be no problem. > It is my understanding that the user's device does the translation It's Amazon doing this for financial gain, integrating it into their app with which people consume audiobooks bought through their platform, based on licenses they legally acquired that presumably don't allow this use. I don't see any context in which this is okay. We can't excuse anti-competitive behavior just because if you do the right amount of twisting it seems okay and they found a neat way to skirt contractual and financial obligations. I'd say most significant issue is the scale. They're essentially providing automation of creating unlicensed copies for everybody on their platform and presumably will have a significant impact on the original copyright holders. Which simply wouldn't be the case for an open source project (the amount of people who use DeDRM is miniscule).
- coldtea 7y ago
  >If they add a keyboard and notepad that lets me take audio myself, then where is the significant difference in adding software that makes it easier for me to do the transcription? Is there a certain level of ease that anything easier than that becomes illegal? Yes. The level of ease where a technology impacts other businesses/versions of material (e.g. the audio book industry here) it is made illegal. If it's unrealistic/inconvenient as to not have impact, it's ignored.

SkyBelow 7y ago

>The law isn't the best place to glean any useful moral principles from. I should clarify I was talking about the existing legal rights owning property entitles me to. Moral rights as well, but that discussion isn't nearly as relevant or useful in this particular case. Sorry for not clarifying. >and add a feature that automatically creates a text version This is where I'm not so certain about. If they add a keyboard and notepad that lets me take audio myself, then where is the significant difference in adding software that makes it easier for me to do the transcription? Is there a certain level of ease that anything easier than that becomes illegal?

jplayer01 7y ago
> This is where I'm not so certain about. If they add a keyboard and notepad that lets me take audio myself, then where is the significant difference in adding software that makes it easier for me to do the transcription? Is there a certain level of ease that anything easier than that becomes illegal? I don't think there's any uncertainty here. They're creating a text version and distributing it without appropriate licensing. If they give you a notepad, and you happen to write a text version, it's not them creating or distributing it, but it's still unlicensed. If it makes its way on their platform in some way, they're going to need permission, again. Further, I don't understand why anybody here is giving Amazon the benefit of the doubt. If they want to do this, they can negotiate the required licensing from the publishers. The fact that they've done it without doing this or even discussing it with the publishers shows their clear intent to do what they want, regardless of how much it runs afoul of any laws, simply because they're big enough to fight any lawsuits for ages.
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  >They're creating a text version and distributing it without appropriate licensing. If they create it on their machines and distribute it, then I agree this is an issue. It doesn't matter if it is an AI or if they paid someone to transcribe it, they are distributing a work they likely don't have permission to do so. But if they provide you an application to create it on your machine, then it is you who does the work to make a copy and distributing the application is not an issue (there is an underlying issue of distributing a neural network that was trained by private work, but I'm not certain that is the case here and I think that is a separate issue to discuss that is irrelevant to the use of that neural network). It is my understanding that the user's device does the translation, but if that isn't the case then my entire argument doesn't apply to this particular case. >Further, I don't understand why anybody here is giving Amazon the benefit of the doubt. Personally I don't care about Amazon. But I do care about the precedent set when it comes to distributing applications that make doing something legal easier (at near zero cost). I personally don't even prefer the argument they use and don't even think it works that great as an argument (because it doesn't work if you replace the AI with a person hired to do the same job).
  - jplayer01 7y ago
    > Personally I don't care about Amazon. But I do care about the precedent set when it comes to distributing applications that make doing something legal easier (at near zero cost). I personally don't even prefer the argument they use and don't even think it works that great as an argument (because it doesn't work if you replace the AI with a person hired to do the same job). I'd say if this were an open source project created by some volunteers because they were genuinely of the opinion that this provided value to people, and it would in the same way that DeDRM is, there'd be no problem. > It is my understanding that the user's device does the translation It's Amazon doing this for financial gain, integrating it into their app with which people consume audiobooks bought through their platform, based on licenses they legally acquired that presumably don't allow this use. I don't see any context in which this is okay. We can't excuse anti-competitive behavior just because if you do the right amount of twisting it seems okay and they found a neat way to skirt contractual and financial obligations. I'd say most significant issue is the scale. They're essentially providing automation of creating unlicensed copies for everybody on their platform and presumably will have a significant impact on the original copyright holders. Which simply wouldn't be the case for an open source project (the amount of people who use DeDRM is miniscule).
coldtea 7y ago
>If they add a keyboard and notepad that lets me take audio myself, then where is the significant difference in adding software that makes it easier for me to do the transcription? Is there a certain level of ease that anything easier than that becomes illegal? Yes. The level of ease where a technology impacts other businesses/versions of material (e.g. the audio book industry here) it is made illegal. If it's unrealistic/inconvenient as to not have impact, it's ignored.